[All] Front side tank hits

#1
2 weeks ago

This applies to 2vs2, 3vs3, 4vs4.

For axis units rear front side does some difference for allied tanks not at all. This esp. in the late game makes it impossible for allied to kill panther, brumbär even P4s on huge maps. I' m not even talking about the Ostwind super tank....
to kill these tanks u need at least 6-8 hits or like 10-12 shots on it front side. So to kill it you have either to snare it or have like 20 units on the field.

Why flanking doesn't work. While most allied tanks are slow, an exception is the comet, axis tanks are very agile and fast. They even can be "doped" with speed.

As the following situation illustrates: A 2 star panther has moved into a bad position.

What will happen next? You are right nothing. The panther just turns and moves out of distance within the next 5 seconds. All remaining front side shots don't hit or penetrate.

Now the question is what do I get in return for my units 2 at guns and 2 at-troopers (1520 MP). Apparently nothing. Let's try soomething different and get tanks.

Ok let's start.

He's going down -or not? Well 3 more shots and it's not down but going backwards with highspeed...

Well no enemy there but the tank immediately turns the turret to nowhere. Well let's get the panther with the other jackson...

OOOOps there were 2 volks who just used 30 ammo to cripple and almost kill me which then did the panther with his 1st shot front side...

So for 125 fuel i get a weapon platform that can hit only tanks, buildings and weapon crews which also needs 9 seconds to reload.
For 75 more fuel a panther is more agile with the same speed backwards as a jackson forward and a devastating impact on infantry at the same firing rate of the jackson.

Oh look here. 2 Panther against 1 at gun. How long does it take? 1 front side hit then they are next to the at gun. And 7 seconds later the at gun is dead. You do remember a jackson needs 9 seconds to load....

If you wanna talk about mines, pls don't. For USF mines need a vehicle for 20 fuel and then 50(?) ammo to lay 1 mine... somewhere in the nowhere and for RMs they die next panther very quickly ... as at guns do ...

ah the Stuart sry guys Allied need all kind of units combind to kill 1 tank?

Maybe for the panther speed would do it. Make him a bit slower esp. backwards....

Comments

  • #2
    1 week ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,700
    edited September 11

    Your 2 ATGs and 2 AT paras costs 900 MP. Don't bullshit us we can see the ability. You ever think that maybe - instead of floating 900 MP and over 500!!! fuel that you should have perhaps bought a single solitary vehicle? So. First example wins you no points. You threw that engagement away because you didn't prepare for it. Do that better next time.

    Buy mines. No seriously. They are hard for USF to get because they immobilize as in - your target is completely stationary until it is healed. They're hands down the best AT mines in the game no discussion.

    If your RM and ATGs are dying quickly to panthers, try not standing on negative cover throwing frag grenades at your own feet. Panthers have laughably bad AI, to the point where it is RNG if a single captain squad will be forced off without bringing it to half HP.

    Your second engagement proves... that you're just bad, really. You won the engagement. You forced the Panther off. That's a victory, because now you have field dominance. What went wrong was, you went ahead and decided to dive the enemy base with a TD and absolutely no support of any kind. Not only that, but thanks to the giant pile of sandbags and the very obvious flak bursts near your Jackson, we can all see you spent time shooting a base Flak emplacement instead of targeting the Panther. Oops. Looks like you failed to pick the right target yet again. You had the advantage and threw it away with a terrible play. Everyone does it.

    The only thing for you to do now is to accept that you made a mistake and learn from it. Well, either that or rush to the balance forums and hope you can change the game to cover up your own failure. Prove me wrong. Submit a replay.

    Edit: also just some mechanics education for you - the game doesn't distinguish between reverse and driving forwards. There's just driving or not driving. A panthers reverse speed is the same as its forward speed - just like it is for literally every other tank in the game.

  • #3
    1 week ago

    @Lazarus said:
    Your 2 ATGs and 2 AT paras costs 900 MP. Don't bullshit us we can see the ability. You ever think that maybe - instead of floating 900 MP and over 500!!! fuel that you should have perhaps bought a single solitary vehicle? So. First example wins you no points. You threw that engagement away because you didn't prepare for it. Do that better next time.

    Paras cost 900 MP and aregular 2nd at gun costs 270 but the at gun of paras don t come with units. so it s not 270 mp but less for reinforcement... but it is so...

    and to be honest it's about front side dmg and i even have a better example...

    Buy mines. No seriously. They are hard for USF to get because they immobilize as in - your target is completely stationary until it is healed. They're hands down the best AT mines in the game no discussion.

    Ah yeah mines in a 4vs4 game ... Yeah have luck ... maybe .... Mines cost 60 ammo which is quite costly and is e.g. removed by w.stukas....

    If your RM and ATGs are dying quickly to panthers, try not standing on negative cover throwing frag grenades at your own feet. Panthers have laughably bad AI, to the point where it is RNG if a single captain squad will be forced off without bringing it to half HP.

    What? It refers to the 2nd situation which just wants to state the dmg output of 2 panther will kill an at gun withing 7 seconds while the atg needs hwo long to load ?? A jackson 9 seconds ....

    Your second engagement proves... that you're just bad, really. You won the engagement. You forced the Panther off. That's a victory, because now you have field dominance. What went wrong was, you went ahead and decided to dive the enemy base with a TD and absolutely no support of any kind. Not only that, but thanks to the giant pile of sandbags and the very obvious flak bursts near your Jackson, we can all see you spent time shooting a base Flak emplacement instead of targeting the Panther. Oops. Looks like you failed to pick the right target yet again. You had the advantage and threw it away with a terrible play. Everyone does it.

    No there weren't any flak burst i had killed em earlier ... And to say a panther is retreating against 2 Jacksons and 1 at gun is a win ... Sry yes lets make axis front side move and forget units and USF e.g. not capabale of whiping units...

    The only thing for you to do now is to accept that you made a mistake and learn from it. Well, either that or rush to the balance forums and hope you can change the game to cover up your own failure. Prove me wrong. Submit a replay.

    Edit: also just some mechanics education for you - the game doesn't distinguish between reverse and driving forwards. There's just driving or not driving. A panthers reverse speed is the same as its forward speed - just like it is for literally every other tank in the game.

    Yeah with the problem that axis tanks as fast as a panther don t have the same front cover... and that s waht i said... wait here comes more....

    Full hit almost down now i ll post it later cause i missed the right spot 5 bazookas front side won t kill the panther ...

  • #4
    1 week ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,700

    @Bogeyfox said:

    Paras cost 900 MP and aregular 2nd at gun costs 270 but the at gun of paras don t come with units. so it s not 270 mp but less for reinforcement... but it is so...

    If you somehow spent 600 MP reinforcing 2 ATGs, you fucked up - which wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. At the most generous we'll call it 950 MP, about 2/3rds of your estimate.

    @Bogeyfox said:

    What? It refers to the 2nd situation which just wants to state the dmg output of 2 panther will kill an at gun withing 7 seconds while the atg needs hwo long to load ?? A jackson 9 seconds ....

    Well color me fucking shocked that 1000 MP 140 muni and 400 fuel managed to counter a single AT gun. News flash - you don't even use a single AT gun to counter 1 Panther. Why did you think it would work on two?

    @Bogeyfox said:

    No there weren't any flak burst i had killed em earlier

    There's flak bursts right on the ground all around your Jackson. You killed them while fighting the Panther. Post the replay and prove me wrong.

  • #5
    1 week ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,039

    @Lazarus said:
    Your 2 ATGs and 2 AT paras costs 900 MP. Don't bullshit us we can see the ability.

    The irony of these 2 sentences......

    Did you even used the ability once in your life?

  • #6
    1 week ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,700

    @Katitof said:

    @Lazarus said:
    Your 2 ATGs and 2 AT paras costs 900 MP. Don't bullshit us we can see the ability.

    The irony of these 2 sentences......

    Did you even used the ability once in your life?

    I dunno, how many SU-76 barrages have you used recently? What did I say about the sass?

  • #7
    1 week ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,143 mod

    Moderation Input (taps angrily with foot) And what should I say about it?

  • #8
    1 week ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 149

    The ability with pearcinground for the Jackson is the problem, they dont pen very often. If you pay mun for a tank destroyer that already has problem pen Axis late tanks it better be sure to pen with its ability. Also, it reset its aiming so once you use it u have to wait extra seconds to shoot with it again, it dosent have time for that or see it bounce it of before they withdraw as seen in the picture abow. Should incrise the Pen for Jackson ability, simply is that.

  • #9
    1 week ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,686
    edited September 11

    Why do you keep using screencaps to show your point? Replays or just your words is better honestly, company of heroes is such an action packed game that still images really don't help anyone unless your pointing out a visual bug of some kind.

    The panther really should not get the armor buff that it does at vet 2, but other than that I can't see much of a legit complaint here. The Jackson is definitely unreliable but not so much that the entire system of axis having heavier armored tanks needs to be tossed out the window.

    Allied tanks are plenty agile, and the US has the quickest of them so I do not understand your complaint about their mobility. That's the one thing they excel at...

  • #10
    1 week ago

    @Lazarus said:

    @Bogeyfox said:

    Paras cost 900 MP and aregular 2nd at gun costs 270 but the at gun of paras don t come with units. so it s not 270 mp but less for reinforcement... but it is so...

    If you somehow spent 600 MP reinforcing 2 ATGs, you fucked up - which wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. At the most generous we'll call it 950 MP, about 2/3rds of your estimate.

    Lazarus, I can't take serious waht you say because you have a personal agenda in this as it seems. You accuse me to fool the community without any argument even if I show you, you are wrong you stick to your "alternative" facts.

    2 Paras 900 + 2 ATGs 540 (270 each) = 1440 MP. Very simple. the time I wrote it i thought ATGs were 300 MP for usf - my bad!
    Simply stick to the facts and don't make things up because you don't like my opinion. And even if you'd say a reinforced ATG gun which is only 1 (You do understand paras drop only 1 ATG) still makes it 270 for the other ATG + reinforce for the paras and the remaining ATG is not 950 MP in total. NTL this "reinforce" assumption is stupid because units don't lose power because reinforcment is cheaper...

  • #11
    1 week ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 256
    edited September 13
    1) paratroopers wasted for at role
    2) not even a snare and than he gets mad when tanks escape
    3) jackson has 200 damage, panther 160, resulting in higher ttk.
    4) huge float of resources
    5) and wtf does that mean ?
    panther side armor IS low...

    (removed)
  • #12
    1 week ago
    BogeyfoxBogeyfox Posts: 32
    edited September 13

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    1) paratroopers wasted for at role

    you do understand paras come with random weapons?

    2) not even a snare and than he gets mad when tanks escape

    paras have no snares and for IM it's a one star req. with a very low range ... but you do know that....

    3) jackson has 200 damage, panther 160, resulting in higher ttk.

    hmmm the headline says front side tank, well which is the regular tank of allies who can shave off 2 atg and 4 shrecks? with 0 damage AND with a speed like a comet?
    aND WHAT S 200 dmg worse if I need 2 shots for 1x dmg hit and the other has 2x dmg hits with 2 shots - front side?

    4) huge float of resources
    5) and wtf does that mean ?
    panther side armor IS low...

    Hmm - how to pass a panther if it runs faster than tanks and infantry (ah snare with oh wait the 60 ammo /20 fuel super car... otherwise it's still as fast as infantry... lol)

  • #13
    1 week ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,039
    edited September 13

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    3) jackson has 200 damage, panther 160, resulting in higher ttk.

    Against what? They aren't shooting same targets, they can't take the same punishment and one is completely incapable of engaging infantry while other can. There is also this thing called armor and penetration.

    panther side armor IS low...

    Game is out for how many years now?
    It never had side armor.
    People would have learned that by now one would think.

  • #14
    1 week ago

    And here's the rest of the story....

    Panther almost down.

    4 bazookas coming in fast.

    2 Hits but no damage.

    Another hit and very slight damage ...

    And the panther gets away....

    the last was even a side hit but no pen...

    Units were then supressed by an air strike so no chance to run after it...

    4 bazookas = 200 ammo - quite an investement...

  • #15
    1 week ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,039

    Screenshots are never "rest of the story".

    Replays are.

    Unless you are providing a full gif, youtube clip or a replay with time stamp, screenshots alone tell absolutely nothing.

  • #16
    1 week ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,850
    Your shots are all hitting the front armour of the panther, anything in the front half (literally 50%) is front armour and that has a value of 320 and is the only redeeming factor currently in that (as it belongs to ost) t4+175 fuel

    Bur in the end you just had bad luck
  • #17
    1 week ago
    BogeyfoxBogeyfox Posts: 32
    edited September 13

    @Lazarus said:
    There's flak bursts right on the ground all around your Jackson. You killed them while fighting the Panther. Post the replay and prove me wrong.

    Here we go. No burst of a flak....

    32nd minute. Flaks are removed...

    here we go

    Turret turning for the 2 VGs

    60 ammo invested ;)

    And dead.... without being able to turn the turret again

    So now?

  • #18
    1 week ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,404

    @Bogeyfox said:

    4 bazookas coming in fast.

    2 Hits but no damage.

    Actually that is rather improbable, since bazookas have deflection damage even if they do not penetrate.

    I am not sure what your point is. Panther is vehicle that is NOT cost efficient.

  • #19
    1 week ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,700

    I didnt ask for more screenshots. Post the replay or make a gif.

  • #20
    1 week ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    Why do you keep using screencaps to show your point? Replays or just your words is better honestly, company of heroes is such an action packed game that still images really don't help anyone unless your pointing out a visual bug of some kind.

    >
    As I explained in another post I do care about privacy...
    Maybe I'll make a video form the required part never the less, I think these examples show that allied lack some kind of late game AT units that can counter and! whipe tanks esp. infantry doesn't scale. E.g. USF has no regular heavy tank - OKW got KT...

    The panther really should not get the armor buff that it does at vet 2, but other than that I can't see much of a legit complaint here. The Jackson is definitely unreliable but not so much that the entire system of axis having heavier armored tanks needs to be tossed out the window.

    I don't say toss it out of the window but there needs to be at least a little tweak for panthers, etc. E.g. slow it a bit to give other units a better chance to flank it.

    Allied tanks are plenty agile, and the US has the quickest of them so I do not understand your complaint about their mobility. That's the one thing they excel at...

    Yes, more agile and! fragile. So what's the tank you are thinking of? Stuart?
    The problem is: Any kind of AXIS-AT unit will damage almost any allied tank front side. Even a Brumbär or a walking stuka etc. will damage allied tanks. ==> Low survivability in the late game...

    As I've shown with the Jackson which is not the best example but 60 ammo invested and half of the health is down. Another 1-2 front side hits and it's history.

  • #21
    1 week ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,404
    edited September 13

    Actually allied TDs have 60 range, high penetration and ROF.

  • #22
    1 week ago
    BogeyfoxBogeyfox Posts: 32
    edited September 14

    (removed)

  • #23
    1 week ago

    @Vipper said:

    @Bogeyfox said:

    4 bazookas coming in fast.

    2 Hits but no damage.

    Actually that is rather improbable, since bazookas have deflection damage even if they do not penetrate.

    I am not sure what your point is. Panther is vehicle that is NOT cost efficient.

    I'm not sure what your point is? Maybe the hits are misses? And it's not correctly shown? Or if it was a hit the panther should be down? And the headline front side ...
    Not sure...

  • #24
    1 week ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 256
    edited September 14
    > @Katitof ha detto:
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > 3) jackson has 200 damage, panther 160, resulting in higher ttk.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Against what? They aren't shooting same targets, they can't take the same punishment and one is completely incapable of engaging infantry while other can. There is also this thing called armor and penetration.
    >
    > panther side armor IS low...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Game is out for how many years now?
    > It never had side armor.
    > People would have learned that by now one would think.

    DPS is NOT relative, jackson can inflict more damage, at a bigger range, resulting in proportionally higher ttk with anything.
    If a player can capitalize on range and mobility, screening properly his tank destroyers, durability will never be needed at all.
    I'm sorry the cheapest turretted tank destroyer can't oneshoot tigers and have 1000 armor.

    I hope you are talking about okw 200 fuel panther, because we may aswell replace ost panther mg's with bows and arrows..

    Rear armor, not side armor...but rear armor isn't even a thing, it's just the whole half back including side armor.
    Yeah you know perfectly the game with your 135 fuel usf tier 3 and paid su76 barrage :smile:

    > @Bogeyfox ha detto:
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > 1) paratroopers wasted for at role
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > you do understand paras come with random weapons?
    >
    > 2) not even a snare and than he gets mad when tanks escape
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > paras have no snares and for IM it's a one star req. with a very low range ... but you do know that....
    >
    > 3) jackson has 200 damage, panther 160, resulting in higher ttk.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > hmmm the headline says front side tank, well which is the regular tank of allies who can shave off 2 atg and 4 shrecks? with 0 damage AND with a speed like a comet?
    > aND WHAT S 200 dmg worse if I need 2 shots for 1x dmg hit and the other has 2x dmg hits with 2 shots - front side?
    >
    > 4) huge float of resources
    > 5) and wtf does that mean ?
    > panther side armor IS low...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Hmm - how to pass a panther if it runs faster than tanks and infantry (ah snare with oh wait the 60 ammo /20 fuel super car... otherwise it's still as fast as infantry... lol)

    It doesn't matter, fill them with mg's and use RE, those bleed nothing .

    Of course i know it, just as i know how silly and stupid is to use para as mainline.
    Were your starting rifles wiped ?
    How couldn't you possibly reach vet 1 by the time a pather appeared ???

    there is no tank that cando that, not even panther.. that's pure bullcrap exaggeration...and LOWER TTK IS lower ttk, i'm sorry stats aren't on your sde, if you ever used panther, that thing is plagued by horrible accuracy and miss a lot both stationary and in movement.so

    Getting a rear shot is not about outrunning a panther, but proper flanking..but even like that, the panther has bad accuracy on the move, like lazarus said, if it is moving back you have won, chase it with 1 medium and a jackson and you have destroyed it.

    I've seen the screens, you keep your jackson too deep, you don't capitalize on range.
    Jackson can shoot much farther than it can see...why you keep it like that ?

    The zook is a soft at, you will get pen it with panzer 4 or lower, and deflection damage (mostly) with better.
    Zook itself shoot incredibly faster, reload 3 second faster than shreck and is equipped on dirty cheap squads, while panzergrens costs a lot.....you may want to spend those 1000+ mp and 300+ fuel on more vehicles/atg (!?!?) : /

    > @Vipper ha detto:
    > Actually allied TDs have 60 range, high penetration and ROF.

    They don't, they have higher rage, high pen and high damage.
  • #25
    1 week ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,700

    @Bogeyfox said:

    You think with your idea of "now I want this and then that" it has anything to do with arguments?

    Stick to facts. I want evidence you haven't had a chance to cherrypick. Your privacy concerns are nothing - you've already given away identifying information.

  • #26
    1 week ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,143 mod

    I do believe this discussion would be more productive with a replay; this feels more like a strategy/gameplay discussion than balance feedback.

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