Map Making Contest

#1
2 months ago
TricTric Posts: 11

Where is the feedback the community was supposed to get for week 3?

Why are we all the sudden into week 4?

There are many, many questions, and normally I don't post here, but what is happening/happened is appalling. Who were the judges? I didn't get them together as was the initial plan when I talked to Kyle (whom is out of office for two weeks), so this is all very surprising to say the least and is only further going to sow distrust and resentment between the (already very small) map making community and Relic.

A great example (outside the official steam collection wasn't updated since August 16th till today) would be not even telling people why their maps didn't pass. This doesn't do anything to help mappers grow, and what's worse, any issues perceived to be had with the maps could've been fixed if anyone even knew that this was still being run (as despite my attempts to reach out, there was no response on anything), as there was literally no updates or talk about this in any official capacity for over 2 weeks (in fact I have a strange inkling that the only reason this was even updated after two weeks of being in the dark was a very scathing twitter rant that I put up earlier in the day TODAY).

All in all, this just isn't the right way to handle this.

We missed an entire feedback phase, we never got the supply event for testing the maps that could be put into automatch (almost entirely forgoing the community feedback in the process), there are no official posts are communication (outside of whether or not your map was removed, and it was only posted here and not communicated to community members to update on community run site(s)), mappers weren't even given feedback or reasoning... I mean, how are we supposed to continue to take this seriously when, you yourselves aren't?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I know that I am not some huge celebrity in the community as that of stormless, A_E, hans, ect; , but this is, just rather bewildering and sad (What I mean, is that I know I'm not running this tourney, but I was helping set it up and maintain quality with Kyle). The mappers are few and far between and often used as a scapegoat in many regards by the community, but we have always had a decent standing with communicating with you at Relic and moving forward in continued new (and FREE) content for most of our favorite game/series that is CoH. To be treated with such disdain and disrespect, leaves at the very least a bad taste in many mouths.

I am trying to advocate for everyone involved here and be as "professional" as possible, a response about how and why this was and is being handled this way would be very nice.

Comments

  • #2
    2 months ago
    Andy_REAndy_RE Posts: 63 admin
    edited September 12

    Hi Tric,

    We had to alter the schedule and format of the competition slightly as mentioned here. http://www.companyofheroes.com/blog/2017/08/16/2v2-map-making-contest-round-2

    We intend to update each map thread with our feedback tomorrow. We apologize for the delay in this regard, however, we felt it was important to update the results of the round three judging today in order to keep with the amended timeline.

    We have been blown away by the overall quality of the maps submitted, and have worked to make sure they are all properly assessed. We very much appreciate the effort that all have put into the competition thus far.

    Please bear with us while we format and distribute feedback.

    Andy

  • #3
    2 months ago
    TricTric Posts: 11

    That doesn't answer the question of "where is week 3 feedback" there were mappers and people waiting for feedback, or hell the update from week 2 submissions that never happened, and now that those people didn't know how to proceed their maps were removed?

    How exactly is that fair again?

  • #4
    2 months ago
    TricTric Posts: 11

    August 16th - Round 2 (First Iteration) begins
    August 31st - Round 2 ends - 2nd Submission Deadline
    September 1st - Round 3 (Second Review) begins
    September 11th - Round 4 (Final Iteration) begins

    The steam collection wasn't updated since the 16th, forgoing an entire review phase.

  • #5
    2 months ago
    Andy_REAndy_RE Posts: 63 admin

    Hi Tric,

    It may be that the wording of the rounds and iteration/ review phases has caused some confusion. If so we apologize.

    On the sixteenth, we created the collection to include all maps that successfully passed Round 1 (First Review). The criteria was fairly relaxed at this point to allow map makers to improve their maps in Round 2 (First Iteration). Most maps made it through this phase.

    Round 2 (First Iteration) was for improvements, and for acting upon community feedback. At the end of this round, the community map makers submitted updated maps, and we entered into Round 3 (Second Review)

    Round 3 (Second Review) is where Relic map makers assessed all submissions from Round 2. We will be providing feedback shortly.

    Now that Round 3 (Second Review) is finished and we have entered Round 4 (Final Iteration), we have updated the Steam collection to reflect the maps that have progressed.

    Round 4 (Final Iteration) is for map makers to act upon Relic and community feedback before we enter into Round 5 (Final Review)

    The collection wasn't updated until now, because Round 3 was solely internal assessment.

    If you want more detail or clarification on what each specific round entails, please refer to the original post here.

    Andy

  • #6
    2 months ago
    TricTric Posts: 11

    It has nothing to do with a "misunderstanding" I wrote the entirety of the rule set (outside the community feedback and point systems) and adapted and adjusted it with Kyle.

    This was not what was meant to happen in any regard.

    The 3rd phase was meant to be the first inclusion of community members (high caliber players) and (if possible) a relic dev. It was never ever meant to be internal only and there is a large misunderstanding on your guys end in one of two ways. One, you changed the way this was going to work and never communicated it to the community, or two, you had this all heaped on you last second and were given no background and inadvertently changed it without communication.

    1-2nd round were all community based feedback with a supply event to most likely unfold over a weekend playtest phase to garner and encourage the most feedback/testing.

    3rd round was to introduce the official judging table and guarantee to the maps that passed into this phase, very specific and nuanced feedback, as we did for the 1v1 map making tourney, the only difference between the two was there wouldn't be a video of specific feedback for each map and the judging tables feedback would not be sent in private as it was before.

    4th round would be the same, but testing any and all changes that were made by suggestion of the judge table, relic dev, and community

    5th round would be the final submission phase with no moral updates being possible and the map being "as is" for the 2v2 contest to be held on after words.

    Either way, you just pushed out novice and expert alike by removing an entire phase of feedback. The community only gave one phase of feedback instead of two, and I never gathered the judges. So now we have the problem of "relic dev(s)" leave all feedback and potentially introduce imbalanced maps to the pool, forgoing people that play their game every day (aka the judge table). This largely is a problem due to player skill, sure you may be a dev, but are you top 1-100 player, have you played this game in a competitive environment for thousands of hours? The short answer is no, you have not.

    The reason that this is an important distinction is because a dev will not notice things a top player will notice, same as a mapper will notice things that a top player wont notice or a dev. We all need each other for this to be the best it can be, and currently that was just all thrown out the window for literally no reason.

    So in summary.

    Why did we lose a week of feedback? Where is the community judging table? Where is the supply event to foster more testing and feedback? Why was it changed with no notice or communication?

  • #7
    2 months ago
    TricTric Posts: 11

    Just to clarify

    Round 2 - First Iteration (14 Days)

    To avoid bias and/or favoritism, all accepted maps will be uploaded to the Steam Workshop via Relic’s Content Creator account and will be available as a Collection for players to subscribe and test. A Map Feedback thread will also be created for each accepted map in COH2’s official forums where players can give feedback to allow the creators to take notes, make adjustments and iterate on their map.

    At this time, both map judges/strategists and the community may offer feedback to the map makers via the dedicated forum threads.
    

    When submitting, map makers are required to update the subject line of their submission email to: [ROUND 3] 2v2 Map Making Contest - [Insert Map Name]
    Upon completion of the Round 3, the advancing map makers will be notified and there maps will automatically advance to Round 4.
    

    Neither of these has happened.

    We missed the entirety of that phase with strategists (as it was never setup, because communication stopped) and NOBODY has received a confirmation email, not once.

  • #8
    2 months ago
    Andy_REAndy_RE Posts: 63 admin

    Hi Tric,

    Thanks for the detail, we can see where you're coming from.

    We've had a project handover, and it looks like there's been some miscommunication on our part. We've missed the community panel aspect of round 3. That's our mistake.

    We want to make sure this contest is as successful as possible, so bear with us while we see what we can do going forward.

    I'll reach out to you as soon as we have an update.

    If you want to message me directly to discuss further, that's totally fine.

    We appreciate you bringing this up,

    Andy

  • #9
    2 months ago
    TricTric Posts: 11

    The way we have communicated the past was via skype, since I cannot find a way to send you a PM on this site, could you do so towards me? If you are actually unable to here, please pm me on .org. Same user name and avatar. As it seems you just inherited this mess recently, and from your profile you just recently became admin, I would have to assume you don't have an account on .org, it would be good for you to make one there if you haven't already.

    Thanks.

  • #10
    2 months ago

    @Tric said:
    The way we have communicated the past was via skype, since I cannot find a way to send you a PM on this site, could you do so towards me? If you are actually unable to here, please pm me on .org. Same user name and avatar. As it seems you just inherited this mess recently, and from your profile you just recently became admin, I would have to assume you don't have an account on .org, it would be good for you to make one there if you haven't already.

    Thanks.

    Same here. Can someone explain pls how to create a PM on this forum!

  • #11
    2 months ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,172 mod
    edited September 17

    click on the receiver's username; on the right hand side you should be able to see the "message" button to send a PM.

    Edit : apparently not. I'll raise that in our next chat. I wasn't aware of that.

  • #12
    2 months ago
    TricTric Posts: 11

    @le12ro said:
    click on the receiver's username; on the right hand side you should be able to see the "message" button to send a PM.

    Edit : apparently not. I'll raise that in our next chat. I wasn't aware of that.

    Yah I was gonna say, it seemed like I couldn't actually send a message, I can however replay to the PM I did receive, thanks for trying to help out.

  • #13
    2 months ago

    I submitted two maps to this... never heard a bloody thing. This whole episode has left a very bad taste in my mouth.

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