OKW (1v1) Lynx and other fixes

#1
2 weeks ago
eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 426
edited October 5 in Balance Feedback

The Lynx is currently a favorite unit among players atm. Rushing for this light tank has become somewhat of a meta.
The point of my post is that, this should not be allowed, and that major changes to need to made to remedy not only this issues but other issues plaguing the OKW faction.

First let's focus on the lynx; the problem is this units placement in the game. Currently it is being rushed for, and while it's fun to have an early, light weight tank, it hurts the factions end game. Originally the lynx was meant to be strong anti-infantry end-game light tank. Basically an ostwind or centaur with roughly 1/3 the health. A true glass cannon as it appeared late in the game. It's firepower could annihilate squads rather quickly, the trade off is that 2 shots from any medium or AT-gun would light it aflame. Pressuring the player's micro skills to keep the unit in one piece. It also gave the OKW a valuable weapon that they lacked, a strong, armored, (and i use the term "armored" relatively here) Anti-infantry platform. Look at the OKW's final tier building. Notice the redundancy in its selection? Instead of giving the player options, now it's just, "Two vehicles that fight tanks well, the third (the pz4) also fights tanks, but not as well as the other two." The lynx, needs to be returned to this final tier and have its fire-power increased. Otherwise we're just making the flaktrack obsolete. The flaktrack is the unit people should rush for, its downside is that is is made of paper. Ergo giving the lynx the title: " The Tiny tank of Terror" As dane would put it.

It would seem that the community is trying to turn the okw into a clone of the Ostheer, Which is another problem we must face...
The okw is a unique faction, as must be treated as so.

The mg34 the panzer4...neither of which perform above average, are both rather odd toppings to add to the okw. I would even go so far as to say this about the jad4 (but only due to personal bias because i see an awkward stug copy) The best way i could describe this would be street fighter clones; Ryu, Ken, Akuma...while they all have their strengths and weaknesses, they all do the same thing. The same here could be said about the jad4, only it does it slower and more awkwardly. You can argue that it has its "ability" and that is has a good punch, and while i wont deny that...its selection is right next to the FORMIDABLE Panther. We could go into more details about costs and whatnot, but i think you get what im trying to say.

My solution would be to remove these 3 units from the game, and increase the abilities of the lynx and puma. Giving the OKW light but formidable vehicles with the panther and KT in reserve, in case things get to heavy. Yes, These two units should be the battle units of the OKW. Now im not talking about major buffs, simply the one i mentioned with the lynx, which would be fine considering its timing would be around the time an EZ8 or jackson would show up. As for the Puma, it's almost good as is, though i think a slight increase in its' main guns range would help, as well as a minuscule price-drop in its fuel.

My final word here.........The changes the community has made; the change of removing shrecks from volks and giving them assault rifles...It fortifies what i was mentioning about hurting the lynx, (you dont need assualt rifles on volks when you have strong AI light tanks and obers (who also need work). These drastic changes, made to accommodate 4v4 games, often imbalance 1v1 games. As i've said in the past, "I know your intentions are good, and you mean to balance the game" But you're destabilizing a faction and leaving them in limbo with no direction. The OKW was once a solid shade rubik's cube...the community has jumbled it into chaos.

«1

Comments

  • #2
    2 weeks ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 804
    1. No
    2. It is called "Luchs" and not "Lynx".
  • #3
    2 weeks ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 541

    I gotta have a laugh when you call the luchs a lynx. I can see why though. Basically everything u said was a waste. You're asking for a MASSIVE overhaul for OKW. Does Relic look like they're in a position to change anything even slightly? Relic probably wishes that the playerbase just stfu and never post on the forums again and best abandoning CoH2 as it has hit the end of the road.

    The problem for OKW is still the same ever since volks got stgs. They are too strong. Volks need a nerf, I think at early levels of vet. As I've said 10% reduction in RA is a massive perk at vet 1 making them more durable than grens man-for-man while cons, rifle, and grens don't get any combat bonuses till vet 2. I can't pinpoint what exactly to replace this bonus with, but I will say that SOMETHING needs to be done. Worse volks means that getting a luchs is not a given for EVERY 1v1 okw game. Currently okw meta is mechanized to get luchs and SU meta is always penals. This makes 1v1 coh2 stale as fuck. When both penals and volks get nerfed, we'll hopefully see a more dynamic build order from these two factions. Maybe after Relic stops fidgeting with maxims SU will use Tier 2 and when luchs gets harder to rush due to worse volks, more OKW players will realize you can't always try to rush for luchs anymore and only rush if you're doing well in the early game.

  • #4
    2 weeks ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 426

    https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/german-english/tiger

    Can't say that i've ever pronounced Tiger that way either, as the phonetics in my dialect are not German. My Sincerest apologies for translating.

  • #5
    2 weeks ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 804
    edited October 7

    @eonfigure So, Churchill means "Church hill" so for me I should call him "Kirchenberg" because I speak German?

    Proper names stay like they are, even in translations.

    "Jackson" will never become "Johans Sohn" and "Sherman" will not become "Wollkleidungsmann" xD

    But that is off-topic. Before Relic can bring in your ideas the hole game has to burn until death to rice like a phoenix.

  • #6
    2 weeks ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,420
    edited October 7

    Luch=Lynx the same way Königstiger=King Tiger (Actually the Royal Tiger). Now try to forget the name and stick to issue.

  • #7
    2 weeks ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 584
    edited October 8

    I fully supported the removal of shrecks from volks. they denied any vehicle play in those days. They vetted way to easy and sniped tanks and inf alike with the shreck esp at higher vet levels. No tank was able to reach the rear armour of okw tanks because of them. basicly making the KT and other okw tanks near invincible. t34,s and shermans where deleted with in seconds.

    what i would have like to see however is that the volks became more like a screening inf unit instead of near elite inf with minimal investment required. i would have liked to see the stgs behind vet 3 or 4 or made doctinal. Okw has plenty of units that can handle all infantry types volks dont need to do the same. Luchs obers sturms flacktrack kt all do that already.
    And defenitly remove selfheal wich is ridicoulous on such a spammable unit. maybe put the inc grenade behind vet 1 aswell instead of -10% recieved acc and give the total recieved acc bonus later down the line wich is a small buff.

    The kubel as a supression platform was a tad to effective imo. if it just got a setup time before it could supress it would be ok.

    the puma currently is perfectly fine. nothing needed here imo. with minimal micro it can easely handle a t34.

  • #8
    2 weeks ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 935
    edited October 8
    Actually, "Lynx" is simply the English word for "Luchs" and was the common name amongst the allies for the vehicle...
    So the translation was on point...

    Just saying...
  • #9
    2 weeks ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 804

    @Baálthazor schrieb:
    Actually, "Lynx" is simply the English word for "Luchs" and was the common name amongst the allies for the vehicle...
    So the translation was on point...

    Just saying...

    Same idiocy as people write "shreck" instead of "Schreck".

    "King Tiger" is another story, the Germans used to say "Königstiger" because of Allii saying. So both is ok, prefer the German one.

    So it began, the respectability of the Forum disappears... "requiescat in pace"

  • #10
    2 weeks ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 426
    edited October 8

    Translate: to turn from one language into another or from a foreign language into one's own.

    This is simple translation. A Lynx is an animal. I'm saying/spelling/pronouncing it in English. The language is irrelevant. Whether it be Spanish, German, Japanese. Proper names however are different.

    And to prove you further wrong, I do not say "Eule" When im talking about the german IR-half track. I say "Owl". If i spoke spanish i'd say, "Buho"

  • #11
    2 weeks ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 804

    @eonfigure schrieb:
    Translate: to turn from one language into another or from a foreign language into one's own.

    This is simple translation. A Lynx is an animal. I'm saying/spelling/pronouncing it in English. The language is irrelevant. Whether it be Spanish, German, Japanese. Proper names however are different.

    And to prove you further wrong, I do not say "Eule" When im talking about the german IR-half track. I say "Owl". If i spoke spanish i'd say, "Buho"

    The "Uhu" is a kind of "Eule", in English it is a "eagle owl". So, you are so or so wrong. ^^

  • #12
    2 weeks ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 426
    edited October 8

    I'm very aware. As I said Owl, not Eagle Owl.

    Considering there's not much else to go on this grammatical topic, as you have no argument, pertinence must be directed back towards other mentionings...

    @TheLeveler83 While i didnt mention the kubel, it is important to mention it since the mg34 was introduced as a substitute for the okw's lack of suppression. I find the kubel to be an lost entity with an unknown future...First it had a purpose, similar to the UC or American Jeep, Now its role has been completely changed to capturing points...which is actually a big deal. Changing a units role mid-game without the proper testing is always a bad idea.
    What i mean is, they didnt take the kubel back to the drawing board, they didnt redesign it from the ground up (game-wise), they just gave it another role. Which is why it feels like an odd, severely under-powered, and misplaced unit. If this unit was truly designed to cap points it would of had ability vet upgrades like, "instant de-cap/neutralization of a point" or "area lock-down/denial abilities". Or Some type of "Quick boost" to get to points faster. But it has none of these. Instead it has a detection ability...and why would you need that ability? In case you were getting flanked from your fixed weapon which is designed to suppress!
    No i do not like the kubelwagen. If you want to call me out on that, im totally fine with that. I think it was a good unit that got kicked to the curb and left to rot as garbage.

  • #13
    2 weeks ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 584
    @eonfigure

    I am not calling you out on anything. I liked the kubel better back then. Its supressed a bit to fast for being so mobile imo.

    And adding the mg34 makes okw closer to ost like you said.
  • #14
    2 weeks ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 804
    edited October 9

    @eonfigure schrieb:
    I'm very aware. As I said Owl, not Eagle Owl.

    It is like I call the tank-hunter "Hornisse" ("hornet") simply "insect", that is stupid for a serious communication.

    And the "Uhu" is an "Eagle Owl", so if you really like to translate proper names then do it right! This is kind of childish, because a "Owl" is "Eule" in German. xD E.g.: Dogs and Wolves are both Canidae, but they are two different Species.

  • #15
    1 week ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,860
    Doesnt matter what the fuck you call it as long as people know what it is. Call the elefant an elephant or a Ferdinand who cares? Call the luchs a p2, a lynx, it doesnt matter. People get it. Does it effect balance if ots called lynx or luchs? Of all the things to be arguing about....
  • #16
    1 week ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 804
    edited October 10
    @thedarkarmadillo It doesn't touch the balance, that is true, but it hurts in a gentleman's hart to read that incorrect product names.

    "Luchs" is Panzer II Ausführung L. It is still a Panzer II, we have no other form so you can also use "Panzer II or PII".

    "Ferdinand" is the Panzerjäger Tiger P without a MG34, so we only have the "Elefant" or "Elephant" ingame. (in German it doesn't matter if you use the new or old writing form of Latin/Greek words, you are also allowed to write Phantasie instead of Fantasie or Photo instead of Foto ONLY the large kapital letter matters, because the are nouns).

    A small kind of knowledge isn't too much to want in a serious forum of a WW2 game. I say that as a nativ speaking Austrian, because it only burns to see such blasphemy.


    For the balance. We are at a point where only "pre-view mods" can really show a working change. Make a own mod and show us its greatness. Only speaking is like Democratic, sound nice, doesn't work.
  • #17
    1 week ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,694
    edited October 11

    I feel that STG upgrades for volks should be tied behind choosing battlegroup first or having 2 tech buildings (so mech+flak hq unlocks it too), to give slightly less incentive to rush mech hq into luchs all the time. Luchs gives you great AI for the time it arrives so there's no reason they should also need the upgrade at that early.

    The "no-healing" side of picking mech first is not enough of a deterrent, since temporary alternatives are there (permanent ones if your volks are vet 3).

  • #18
    1 week ago
    @SkysTheLimit

    Or.....make battlegroup units worth at least half their price tags ^~^
  • #19
    1 week ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 541
    edited October 13

    @TheLeveler83 said:

    the puma currently is perfectly fine. nothing needed here imo. with minimal micro it can easely handle a t34.

    "Easily?" You need more micro than the Soviet to kill t34. The t34 needs just 3 shots while the puma needs around 6. T34 penetrates everytime while puma can struggle vs t34. As usual, your allied bias is showing.
    I'm not saying that the puma is underpowered but it is definitely not on par with any allied mediums.

  • #20
    1 week ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,860
    If i had to go out on a limb i would say its because the puma ISNT a medium. Its pen is better than that of a t34, as is its range and its mobility. Also it has 5 levels of vet instead of 2 (i say 2 because fuck cap territory) it also comes out sooner. Im not sure that you want from it...
  • #21
    1 week ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 3,703
    Puma punches above its weight easy. Its essentially a SU76 with a turret and no barrage.

    As for the JP4 being a clumsy StuG clone (mentioned in OP) it's definitely not. The decent armor and extra 10 range make a *world* of difference. The StuG can be bullied by TDs but the JP4 is a TD bully. It's purpose built for cracking mediums and TDs - something Ost struggles with if they cant keep their Paks alive. In fact - the JP4 is probably one of the biggest things separating Ost and OKW right now.
  • #22
    1 week ago

    Puma is a high micro mediocre unit for its price. If used absolutely flawlessly you can punch above its weight and hence get its higher levels of vet. I'd say its even harder to micro then stug. However, heat rounds make the puma very potent and the difference is night and day.

    @Lazarus said:

    As for the JP4 being a clumsy StuG clone (mentioned in OP) it's definitely not. The decent armor and extra 10 range make a world of difference. The StuG can be bullied by TDs but the JP4 is a TD bully. It's purpose built for cracking mediums and TDs - something Ost struggles with if they cant keep their Paks alive. In fact - the JP4 is probably one of the biggest things separating Ost and OKW right now.

    JP is definately a better version of stug. But you can still bully TD with TWP stug. Even without TWP you can beat firefly, jackson straight up in an isolated battle even after eating the first shot to close the distance. At least in 1v1 i find quite a few chances to gun down a lone TD by using a stug aggressively. People cant always screen them.

  • #23
    1 week ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,420

    The gun of the Puma is not that good actually
    Damage 120, penetration 160/120/80 ranges 10/30/50

    Su-76
    Damage 120, penetration 200/190/180 ranges 0/30/60

    T-34
    Damage 160, penetration 120/100/80 ranges 0/20/40

    Su-76 has a far superior gun and since T-34 has a dual gun it is better imo.

  • #24
    1 week ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 584
    edited October 14

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    "Easily?" You need more micro than the Soviet to kill t34. The t34 needs just 3 shots while the puma needs around 6. T34 penetrates everytime while puma can struggle vs t34. As usual, your allied bias is showing.
    I'm not saying that the puma is underpowered but it is definitely not on par with any allied mediums.

    I am not saying its on par with all allied medium tanks. but in the case of the t34 it can quite handely win against it by kiting. its mobility and rof are better then the t34s. It also has aimed shot as vet 1 ability increasing its chances of winning/surviving and gaining more vet. Capture terrirory and ram are both just infirior to aimed shot imo. And ram can quite easy backfire on you unlike aimed shot.

    Only when the t34 somehow gets the drop on the puma will the puma be in a pickle. when the puma is kiting the t34 the puma will nearly always escape or even kill the t34 if it follows the puma to far.

  • #25
    1 week ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,420
    edited October 14

    Not sure why Puma is the center of the debate but...

    T-34 cost 300/80

    Puma cost 320/70

    For a Puma kite and kill a T-34/76 it need 6 shot that hit with around 27,5% (on the move) and penetrate with 53%.

    If one considers that the prices are rather close and that T-34/76 is an all purpose vehicle I would call it far more cost efficient.

    In the end of the day, I don't really see the point, Puma is specialized vehicle and id does not do that great against a all-round unit with about the same price.

    Compared to the SU-76 or stug it's less cost efficient.

  • #26
    1 week ago
    The puma has a turret and its mobility going for it, its rof doesnt seem to be bad either. The su76 and stug have either range rof or armour going for them. Both the su76 and the stug can not flank or kite like the puma can. The puma can come a lot earlier ass wel.

    As for the price off the t34 and puma. The puma can come to early and the t34 is cheap because it comes to late considering its preformance and what it generaly faces.
  • #27
    1 week ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,420
    edited October 14

    Stug and SU-76 are OP, Puma is really not cost efficient compared to them nor is it cost efficient compared to M10. The only thing it has going for it is sight and the "aim shot" and it simply take too long to aim it...

    As for its mobility its good on paper but it allot worse actually because it can not crash things and because of its path-finding.

  • #28
    1 week ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,860
    Are we just going to ignore that the t34 is a full tech vehicle and the puma comes out about the same time as light armour? What do you want from it? An m10? In a faction that already has a panther AND a JP4 what kind of insane pen should the puma have that wont massively overlap with either of those? Its designed to counter light armour and flank against everything else, its cheap, comes early and has smoke. It can force team weapons to pack up and stun casemate TDs, it can lock turrets and provides a built in snare for lights.
  • #29
    1 week ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… At TenagraPosts: 1,694
    edited October 14

    The Puma is fine. This notion that it's not cost effective is absurd, it's just not as cost effective as the Su76 or Stug, which are 2 units that are TOO cost effectve. It can be called in from potentially your first tech building, anything less than its current cost would be too cheap for that exact reason.

    @Vipper said:
    T-34 cost 300/80

    Puma cost 320/70

    Piggybacking on dark's point, that is as useless of a cost comparison as it can get. One of those tanks can be called in from a first buildable tier, the other requires 3 tiers (including its own) to be built. One of those units has an ability that safely disables a tank's weapon from well beyond their max ranges, the other has an ability that disables tanks by essentially committing suicide.

    The puma is plenty effective for its cost, its just not cost-effective to a broken level unlike a variety of OKWs roster.

  • #30
    1 week ago

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    Both the su76 and the stug can not flank or kite like the puma can.

    You can kite decently with a stug.

  • #31
    1 week ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 584
    edited October 15

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    Both the su76 and the stug can not flank or kite like the puma can.

    You can kite decently with a stug.

    you can kite with anything but the puma is much better at it then a stug or su76 imo.

«1
Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

  • © SEGA. SEGA, the SEGA logo, Relic Entertainment, the Relic Entertainment logo, Company of Heroes and the Company of Heroes logo are either trademarks or registered trademarks of SEGA Holdings Co., Ltd. or its affiliates. All rights reserved. SEGA is registered in the US Patent and Trademark Office. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.