DBP Balance Feedback

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  • #722
    3 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited December 2017

    WOW 2.0 is the nail in the coffin. I can't believe I'm reading this. As if OKW wasn't nerfed enough they further doubled the luchs build time. Luchs will completely fall off the map in 1v1 due to self healing moved to vet 5 for volks. And in team games, other players can help OKW heal for cheap but it also means that there is likely to be more chance of at weapons on the field earlier since if one player might have focused heavily on AI, the other may get some AT.

    {removed) Hasn't luchs been nerfed enough?! And no explanation about the IS changes to RA from Mr. Smith. Also, if you didn't catch one particular change on the patch notes, I'll repeat it: at one revision of the DBP patch, the balance team decided to actually buff the Sherman HE?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who complained about HE being underpowered?! I

    (removed)
    And further nerfs to Ost doctrines as Stormtroopers can't get the 3 G43s anymore when guards are getting buffed and can potentially be spammed in the mid and late game to completely replace cons due to their versatility, durability and firepower. They're gonna perform like fucking double bar with zook and button USF riflemen all over again. (removed)

    (removed) Just like what Dane said today on his channel. This DBP is (removed) sad because a few patches earlier, it was actually looking promising but it went downhill fast after the reverted IS changes and suddenly a sea of OKW nerfs.

    I am taking a long hiatus from CoH2. I'm sure Allied players will have much longer wait times on automatch now trying to find an Axis player to steamroll. Reichsgarde will be correct on this, trust me. When Hesky mentioned uninstalling Coh2 he is also not wrong.

  • #723
    3 years ago

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Also, if you didn't catch one particular change on the patch notes, I'll repeat it: at one revision of the DBP patch, the balance team decided to actually buff the Sherman HE?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Apparently you didn't catch it either, because the change actually nerfed the HEs kill radius (nerfed Near AND Mid AOE) while increasing its far AOE. Now the kill radius is just getting nerfed, so who knows why you're choosing to make a big deal about it now.

  • #724
    3 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited December 2017

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    I just said that TWP is UNNECESSARY if there are 2 at weapons already lined up. 2 volleys will take it out unless the allied player is EXTREMELY quick to get it out of there.

    Unless it's literally anything greater than a medium tank? Comet, 34/85, IS-2 etc. all worth stunning if given the opportunity.

    And if your point is that the Paks will kill tanks fast enough that they don't even need the ability to stun them, then that would seem to suggest its really fucking good at its job. The window for getting away before that second volley is certainly shorter.

    Yes, paks will kill tanks fast enough if the allied player is stupid enough to send his armor blindly right into where defenses are thickest. Do you know how big of a burden it is for Ost to protect at guns. Yes, a bigger burden than all other factions due to the fact that mgs and grens can barely fend for themselves, how do you expect them to come to the rescue of a pak that is left in the open accidently for a second too long. Like raks, paks are almost just as hard to keep alive. Will the result be any different if i drive a p4 into 2 allied at guns? Only the USF at gun will likely bounce a shot or two.

    (removed)

  • #725
    3 years ago

    Increasing building time for a Luchs seems to be too big.
    @Mr_Smith
    If it is increased, why producing time of Stuart, T70 and AEC was not?

  • #726
    3 years ago
    Hesky85Hesky85 Posts: 52
    edited December 2017

    Luchs build time from 40 to 85 is the same as the unreasanble double cost raise from the 222 from 15 fuel to 30. BTW the 222 is the needless vehicle in the whole game for its price.

    It remains: When this changes goes live, COH 2 was the longest time on my SSD. And trust me, not only on my PC.

    Its every time the same:
    The Axis unit gets a nerf and the counterpart (T70, Stuart and AEC) are OKAY....

    cheers

  • #727
    3 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited December 2017

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Also, if you didn't catch one particular change on the patch notes, I'll repeat it: at one revision of the DBP patch, the balance team decided to actually buff the Sherman HE?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Apparently you didn't catch it either, because the change actually nerfed the HEs kill radius (nerfed Near AND Mid AOE) while increasing its far AOE. Now the kill radius is just getting nerfed, so who knows why you're choosing to make a big deal about it now.

    And that is a massive buff as why would you want to get tanks up close and personal to risk fausts, schrecks and everything else.

    And I forgot to mention that you DID support USF getting a persh. You used the same argument you used to defend USF getting m17 mines (because everyone else has one)

  • #728
    3 years ago

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Yes, a bigger burden than all other factions due to the fact that mgs and grens can barely fend for themselves, how do you expect them to come to the rescue of a pak that is left in the open accidently for a second too long.

    How do you expect a Soviet or US player to do it? Their AT guns walk slower if moving over craters or brushing against light cover of any kind, something that is just now getting fixed. If Relic is so biased towards the allies how has something like that been in the game since WFA launch? Or how did the Stuka bomb get ninja buffed without anyone getting an explanation?

    Maybe you should recognize that the only agenda any of us can legitimately accuse Relic of is trying to make money. Beyond that, all of the dumb balance decisions that have been made during the last 4 years clearly go both ways.

  • #729
    3 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited December 2017

    (removed)

  • #730
    3 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited December 2017

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    And that is a massive buff as why would you want to get tanks up close and personal to risk fausts, schrecks and everything else.

    What? Do you know how AOE distances work? It is the damage dispersion radius of the explosion itself, it has nothing to do with how close the tank is to the target. Near AOE is the radius at which the Near Damage multiplier is applied, and usually represents the kill radius for AOE weapons.

    (removed)

  • #731
    3 years ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Yes, a bigger burden than all other factions due to the fact that mgs and grens can barely fend for themselves, how do you expect them to come to the rescue of a pak that is left in the open accidently for a second too long.

    How do you expect a Soviet or US player to do it? Their AT guns walk slower if moving over craters or brushing against light cover of any kind, something that is just now getting fixed.

    They do it by easily beating back Ostheer pathetic infantry before they even get close to allied at guns. OKW will soon taste the superior allied infantry due to volk nerf.

  • #732
    3 years ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Yes, a bigger burden than all other factions due to the fact that mgs and grens can barely fend for themselves, how do you expect them to come to the rescue of a pak that is left in the open accidently for a second too long.

    How do you expect a Soviet or US player to do it? Their AT guns walk slower if moving over craters or brushing against light cover of any kind, something that is just now getting fixed. If Relic is so biased towards the allies how has something like that been in the game since WFA launch? Or how did the Stuka bomb get ninja buffed without anyone getting an explanation?

    Maybe you should recognize that the only agenda any of us can legitimately accuse Relic of is trying to make money. Beyond that, all of the dumb balance decisions that have been made during the last 4 years clearly go both ways.

    I don't how it was before since I did not play COH2 back then, but this patch, no matter how you look at it, net sum is substantial buff for allies and substantial nerf for axis. OKW got systematic nerfs to early, mid and late game while OST is just all over the place with no plan for them added with some random nerfs and buffs.

  • #733
    3 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    edited December 2017
    Imo:

    ZiS3 vs PaK40:
    It's a close matchup. In fact, it's such a close call, that I can't really give the edge to either. Imo, they both work as intended and within their current price range. Nerfing the TWP is rather meh to me as the new iteration sounds fairly good as well.

    Guards:
    There are few units in this game that I don't mind seeing buffed/nerfed, but there ARE a handful that I'm EXTREMELY wary about, simply because they can quickly spiral out of control.
    I've been around long enough to see the doomsday machine that was the old TA, the wiping fest galore of the T-70, the bullseye B4 and the bs-meta of the old guards.
    Hence, I'm just really, REALLY worried about buffing either of these units, because I've seen the potential outcome of them.
    With the latest guards-buff, I feel it's okay'ish, but my insides are shaking in fear as I also feel that we are, again, closing in on the steroid-pumped beasts we have seen before.

    ISU-152:
    No comments. It was a right MONSTER in the old days, then it received quadruple nerfs and it retired to the dustbin of yore.
    It like the changes so far, but I will reserve judgement until I've played against it a few times.

    Bundle grenade vs gammon bombs:
    Utter fail!! The gammonbomb needed to be nerfed, because of the units that carried it. And the bundle grenade needed to stay the same, because..,drum roll..,of the units that carries it..!
    Pgrens NEED that thing to be powerful, because it's the only Ost stock inf worth a damn and is pretty mediocre until you hit vet 2. ST's are decent, but costs a fucking fortune and is subpar without stg-upgrade.
    This is a classic case of, "if I can't have it, then you can't either" without looking at the details. For shame..!

    Riflemen smoke:
    Meh. It's a step in the right direction, but it still feels like crossing the Sahara desert when a guy pops out of nowhere offering you a flask of water, only to pour half of it out beforehand, because fuck you, that's why!

    Demo charge:
    Jesus fucking Christ!!
    How hard can it be?! Seriously, for a modding team pretending to listen to the community, you're not listening very well..! Everybody and their mother has suggested that all you need to do is have it only kill 3/4 of a full health squad, not be buildable on points and do engine damage crit on vehicles and it's fine!
    Yet you keep mocking about with these weird changes that nobody likes! I adamantly refuse to believe that anybody has lost more games than me,because if this fucking thing and even I think the current changes are garbage..! Get a goddamn grip already!!

    KT nerf:
    Why exactly was this thing nerfed again?! Nobody asked for it, nobody wanted it and yet we got it. What exactly were the rationale behind this nerf? It just seems weird, uncalled for and waaay over the top!
    The KT is the last stop for the OKW!
    I'm from Denmark and in the winter of 2010, I was driving through the southern states of the US and all across the landscape was billboards saying; "That's it guys. No more petrol and cokes for you for x-amount of miles!"
    The KT is that... the last stop... No more room to err. No more room to fail. The last ditch effort..! You get this one and you got a shot! You misjudged and you're screwed..!
    Now it feels like;
    "Well, we will fill it up and give you a coke on the way, but we poured sugar in your tank and the coke is laced with arsenic, because there is zero fucks given here..!"
    Just too much and waaay over the top..!

    JT nerf:
    A slow, lumbering imcarnation of the three stooges being nerfed, because flanking a handicapped turtle, apparently, is hard..! :s Gimme a fucking break already..!

    ST nerf:
    I can only add to what me, @thedarkarmadillo and @Katitof has already discussed in length; the big hitters of either factions are being nerfed and "put in line" so to speak.
    This is bad for the game and it is bad for the community as a whole...
    The faction lines are being erased and redrawn and it's making everything more dull tbh.

    Edit;

    OKW's vet 5 system:
    A lot of people berating this one? Why?!
    Give it a high(but reasonable)requirement and worthwhile boni.
    People arguing that it should be the equivalent of vet 3 is just plain wrong..! OKW already pay a pretty massive premium for just about everything and their payoff if their higher vet!
    "But the game is focussed on vet 3 units!!"
    Yes, which is why the OKW should keep its distinct vet 4-5 boni.
    If you're gonna erase/dilute that, please make every OKW unit cost the same as everyone elses equivalent..!
    300 mp obers with stock mg34?
    Sure, but every allied player and their brother would cry bloody hell, so...!
    And why do it?! This is a unique feature of the OKW, so keep it.
    It's hard enough to keep your units to vet 3, let alone vet 5,so whats the big deal.... Its surpose to be a cashin for the OKW, not just a pad on the shoulder...
  • #734
    3 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    I couldn't agree more with @Baálthazor about faction uniqueness being less prominent. With regards to the Panzer II Luchs nerf, I sincerely cannot understand why people even think it is necessary to nerf this unit any further. There are simply SO MANY counters to the Luchs that anyone with a decent level of intelligence can neutralize it. This change is unnecessary and if I might even say so, this unit needs a buff:

    • Better AoE
    • Better Reload Rate
    • Better Accuracy
    • More Penetration versus vehicles
  • #736
    3 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @LetzteJunker said:
    Increasing building time for a Luchs seems to be too big.
    @Mr_Smith
    If it is increased, why producing time of Stuart, T70 and AEC was not?

    Probably because no one does ever anything different then luchs rush, while the 3 you mentioned are fully optional and not seen in every singular game across all skill levels.

  • #737
    3 years ago
    @katitof the flak truck buff might help without a minute and a half build time for the luchs.
  • #738
    3 years ago

    @thedarkarmadillo Despite how much I hate OKW, I have to say I found your "rant" pretty fair. The only thing I will say against it is that the KT change seems to be geared more towards team games, where your point about saving the fuel for all the reqs doesn't apply. You'll see multiple from 1 player in the game if he's got at least 1 wehr buddy with the caches.

    That said I could not agree more that nerfing it into unreliability is the worse way to go. I happen to think it is too good at kiting infantry outright, but I would give it the treatment that so many other AOE weapons are getting. Reduce kill radius, increase overall splash radius for more consistent damage. The 120mm got this treatment ages ago, and while many saw it as a nerf, it really made it more reliable while nerfing its cheesiness. Making things miss more often is really not a great way to make them more fair. Cons just got changed out of that formula so I am very puzzled why they are going that route with the KT.

  • #739
    3 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    Ive posted several "sane" respones/replies to This here balance patch, but if I can take "the leaf off of my mouth", then I'd like to share my deepest feelings, excluding the omnipresent feelings of "you vs me" that's going on at..!

    The allied are winning..... at least in 1v1...
    You wanna be competitive?! You wanna be exports material?! Then balance the game around having an equal chance in 1v1's...!
    So far, it's not even close!!!

    Ost(my main) is struggling severely against any and all..! I'm a top 150-200 player, the MINUTE I change my loudout, ūiI drop 300-500 ranks...!!! How is this fair!!
    I'm now currently sitting at 800+ ranks and it's just not okay..! You wanna be better, fine, but atm its just a crapshoot,
  • #741
    3 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited December 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @SkysTheLimit a better team game nerf would IMO just be to bring it CLOSER to release levels (thats price AND armour (front only)) as allied units had their capacity to fight it greatly improved since then, but limit it to 1 a game (its a call in now so how is that unreasonable?) Say 400 front armour but 280(?) Fuel.

    I would be 100% on board with making it more scary if you could only get 1 per game. I'm not quite sure why you've ever been able to build more than 1, given that everyone else is locked into commanders for heavies.

    The one thing I don't care about in the general KT conversation is the "needing the tech" argument. If it costs too much itself that's one thing, but it's a stock unit with the power of everyone else's doctrinal units (if not more). It damn well better have some hefty requirements. And 2v2s is my main arena, so I admit I see the KT way more often than those who main 1v1s.

  • #742
    3 years ago
    Selvy289Selvy289 Posts: 172

    I dont see a huge problem with the king tiger nerf. Iv tried it out and all it seems is a nerf to its accuracy (which is the nerf +pop increase). Why are people upset that it cannot reliably wipe squads or face at guns head on anymore? I understand its lost its sight bonus at vet 4 but seriously, just have the dam thing stationary and it will still preform as it should.

    Ill post the changes here

    King Tiger
    Given the high lethality of the KT's main gun, we found that the squad wiping capabilities of this unit made it generally over perfrom vs late-game infantry and AT guns. To compensate for this, we are reducing the main gun's accuracy vs non-vehicle units.

    Angle scatter increased from 4 to 7.5
    Distance scatter max increased from 4 to 5.7
    Scatter offset decreased from 0.25 to 0.185
    Population cap increased from 21 to 23

    King Tiger
    The KT has received a slight adjustment to its veterancy 4 to help prevent it from out scaling opposing players.

    Vet 4 sight bonus removed (scatter bonus remains)

    It is a hefty scatter nerf but I would probably thing it would be iver that or its aeo. One way or another, there was no way the king tiger was going to escape adjustment when all others are being adjusted (besides the kv2 lol).

  • #743
    3 years ago

    I would not mind if you could only have one KT per game, in Tiger ace style. Or you need to build on the HQ and take some time. But this nerf seems to be the answer to a question no one else has asked.

  • #744
    3 years ago
    @DanielM36 thats the thing that bothers me the most about the nerf- nobody asked for it. Every one else seemed to understand that its a sloow lategame unit with a snaily turret. The way to not get nailed with it is by staying out of its way. Its supposed to be a breakthrough unit, making it miss more is just making it into a slower version of the is-2 that EVERYONE hated and joked about. "The is-2 gunner had too much vodka" was a coh2 meme for christ sake similarily the ostwind for ages. I remember when the ostwind would kill a model EVERY shot on the move, that was so long ago i dont remember if it was the possibly as early as the beta or after release.... Its just getting buffed now...
  • #745
    3 years ago

    Would it not be possible to implement something like "Strained supply lines" or "Supply shortage" that would debuff KT if there is more than one in the field? I am not sure from technical side if it is even possible, but from balance point it would solve the issue by not harming KT too much and at the same time toning it down in team games where more than one of them can show up.

  • #746
    3 years ago

    guys why they say:
    Vehicle Crew Repair

    • No longer drains munitions income by 50% per tank
    • Cost increased from 30 to 35
      yes it Cost increased from 30 to 35 but still drains munitions income by 50% per tank.
  • #747
    3 years ago
    vsrvsr Posts: 93

    Like said some controversial changes but overall many good changes that emphasizes on player's skill. Can't wait until they release this patch.

  • #748
    3 years ago
    Selvy289Selvy289 Posts: 172
    Well, you guys do have a point. I honestly hate how accurate the it main gun is but the changes does make it feel like the is2 but bulkier and slower.

    The scatter nerf could of been not as extreme as it is now. Look, the thing is no one saw the 85 build time for the luch coming and bam, suddenly there it is in the FINAL VERSION.

    So does that mean what come after is what is going to be in the actual patch?
  • #749
    3 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    Yes, player skills will become more important for Axis factions as they struggle to hold on from beginning to end.

    I wonder what other stuff Mr. Smith and his team will nerf.

  • #750
    3 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    I also cannot believe that 90% of the community approved this patch. Simply appalling.

  • #751
    3 years ago
    PrincessBubblegumPrincessB… Posts: 110
    edited December 2017

    @Katitof

    Probably because no one does ever anything different then luchs rush, while the 3 you mentioned are fully optional and not seen in every singular game across all skill levels.

    Your last comment to me is full noncence, especially about AEC, what is less unusual than even Luchs in any kind of games from 1v1 to 4v4.
    Sorry, but I asked somebody who understands what is happening in Company of Heroes 2 right now and what will happen in the future, not you. Thanks.

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