DBP Balance Feedback

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Comments

  • #753
    3 years ago

    @Reichsgarde написал:
    I also cannot believe that 90% of the community approved this patch. Simply appalling.

    Because this patch will open air for some new doctrines what were usless before (like Jaeger infantry for Ostheer, mechanised/recon for USF and Feuersturm for OKW) or gives a "new life" to bosstruppen or PTRS conscripts.
    Patch is good, but point of update is not gained. For example, panther spam really still be an option, especially for OKW.

  • #754
    3 years ago
    ImperialDaneImperialD… Posts: 3,197 mod
    edited December 2017

    @Reichsgarde said:
    I also cannot believe that 90% of the community approved this patch. Simply appalling.

    Check the steam page. It's less than 200 votes. It's hardly any sort of approval.

    You can vote here : http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1188134341

    If you want to and let them know your opinion since apparently feedback counts for nothing.

    As for actual feedback, seems like hit the dirt and cover stacks resulting in conscripts hitting the dirt behind cover being almost unkillable.

    Fun fact, this was a problem waaaay back in the beta.

  • #756
    3 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    @ImperialDane Thank you for letting me know. Yeah, it seems our feedbacks and pleas for reviews seem to go unnoticed. I will cast my vote and hope for the best.

  • #758
    3 years ago

    The 2nd Balance Patch attempt is a fail. It started to be looking good, then it re-iterated all the reasons why the fall balance patch has failed. It is simply not a balance patch, but a personal mod that aims not for balance, but to keep the current Allied meta alive without the need to any adoption.

    It is still and will be Penal Penal Penal Penal (Rfileman/IS), TD wall, rocket arty spam vs. much weaker counters.

    IS were/are overpowering in the beginning of the game. The right choice was made to get their RA to 0,9 and limit them to be the only UKF unit to benefit from cover (which was the UKF design and it made sense). The only issue being too good and too hard to kill at start. Now they are back to the same 0 minute 0,8 RA terminators with buffed offense, except now basically all their counters are also nerfed to the ground.

    Same with the Jackson. Apparently some claim it desperately needed a +25% durability buff. OK, make the unit more resilent, but then the original compensating nerfs. Remind me why a TD that has a turret, is fast and basically recons for itself needs to have superior moving accuracy AND range and 50% damage ability to function.

    And there goes the changes that strongly point to chemical influence. Bundled grenade nerf, really? Panther nerfs. Panther nerfs. To the unit that practically everyone agrees to be the main problem with OST Tier IV.

    _Doubled _Luchs build time just because some Allied players are totally unwilling to change their meta to anything else but Rifle/IS/Penal spam? Like, building AT that Axis absolutely MUST at 7 mins?

    Complete gutting of OKW Veterancy design?

    The worst part is that OST is left in the dust, its major problems - mainline infantry being just not cutting it, Tier IV offering too little, with salt added to the wound with Conscript buffs (which were needed but not outside the context of the Grens being too weak and without a clear role apart from being a punchbag for every single allied infantry to kick around).

    I find it bizarre that OST, the faction left most behind, basically gets neither the attention it needs and the handful of changes are basically nothing but nerfs and token buffs where it wasn't even needed, such as a nominal +5 pen buff to the Panzer IV.

    Wehrmact Tier IV remains enviable after 8 iterations of Balance patch attempts, the Panther is still meh (and further nerfed).

    Wehr's late game infantry options - still non-existent. Now even Conscripts wipe the floor with Grens.

    OST's light vehicless all completely suck and cannot reasonable fullfill a single role well as with the their wet paper tissue armor they are driven away by anyone who has been just spamming infantry and they are the weakest light vehicles to boot, and as such, a waste of time and resources.

    OST however retains the same issues for years.

    Lack of effective light vehicles - the 222 is rather slow, it has little damage potential and lacks resilience even against small arms. If its supposed to be a counter for lightest vehicles but loose to most other light vehicles, at least make it fast to give a chance to maneuver and escape.

    The base 251 is next to useless - its made out of wet paper (unlike all other Halftrucks), it has useless abilities, meh DPS. Its only good with the flame halftruck upgrade in small window, but apart from that, the base version has very little viability. At the very least its armor should be on par with other halftrucks, and some useful abilities wouldn't hurt either - like AP rounds, light suppression as in COH 1, or some sort of aura, boosting of infantry ability cooldown etc.

    Lack of viable infantry for late game where their support weapons have much less of a window due to cover everywhere and saturation fire from rocket arty. Grens just don't cut it, they do not have the abilities and they basically loose against every other infantry while still being a heavy manpower bleed. Grens would need something to remain useful and competitive, like light suppression muni ability, ability to build sandbags instead of bunkers, or some buff when researching BF3. They could remain less wipeable for example if BF3 would give them a Squad Leader (Veteran Sergant) instead of one of the Gren models with some light armor, so at least one of the Squad members could survive the engagements and retreat. Or some sort of more elite infantry in tier IV, like a non-doctrinal version of Stormtroopers (here's an idea - basic version based on the doctrinal one with one Stg + 3 Gren Kar98s, plus an upgrade option for either a single Panzerschreck OR an LMG 43, simple Model 24 Grenade and smoke grenade. Or a combination of it.

    OST infantry situation could be also vastly improved by simply freeing up Pioneers who do nothing but repairing tanks in all mid-late game. Give them an unlock of a repair station upgrade to Tier III building after researching BF3.

    Now, Tier IV. The Panther is simply lackluster, meaning that the meta still remains Tier III and Tiger as at least this combination performs. Veterancy could be adjusted that the Panther receives range bonuses instead of armor, so at least OST would have a 60 range tank destroyer too. Leave the DPS as it is (adjust RoF) but with 200 damage alpha damage, and more consistent hitting of targets with a 0.65 moving accuracy like OKW Panther.

  • #759
    3 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited December 2017
    1. It is a great patch, alone because of the bug-fixes.
    2. It is the way how changes work, hater ganna hate. A nerf can be a buff, if its counter got a larger nerf. -> Panther vs Firefly
    3. The game is balanced, first time of history of CoH2 symmetric adjustments were made to overwatch all units.
    4. Look in a neutral perspective, even historical aspects or historical objections were taken into account = The game becomes better.

    Sure, I am also missing the old Tiger-Ace of 2014, a no-brainer you dominated the battle with one unit. But you can't have everything. ;P

    The only things I really wish are:

    • Piats need to become non-tech.
      -> So they can counter light vehicles.

    • 6pounder needs an accuracy nerf (the extra 25% has to be removed).
      -> So light vehicle get a chance to escape.

    • Tiger needs more range (45-50 to 50-55).
      -> So it can compensate new Jackson and ISU152.

    • Geballte-Ladung needs some AT advantage (crew-shock for ~3sec).
      -> To compensate the AI-nerf.

  • #760
    3 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    Tiger and Panther are being left behind. 90% approval ratings, lol, patting your own back, trolling us aint it Relic?

    It is still and will be Penal Penal Penal Penal (Rfileman/IS), TD wall, rocket arty spam vs. much weaker counters.

    Basically this, Infantry spam, smoke grenades, mortar and than TD wall. Sit back, arty and push forward because Axis cant break through. nerfed Panther is so going to be worthless diving into TD and AT wall.

    Allies meta is alive and easy to follow.

    Even new players joining does this, and i find myself losing 1v1 and 2v2 more than a year ago.

  • #762
    3 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    First, I wonder who are all the people who are disliking comments that point out pretty obvious facts. I guess it doesn't concern them in the slightest that the CoH 2 is heading towards ever greater imbalance.

    Second, nerfing the Panzer II Luchs (not just its build time but its combat efficacy, which has been nerfed over time) is simply wrong. Why? When you nerf a unit that a faction relies on for whatever reason (e.g. encourage tactical diversity, promote strategic thinking, etc.), you need to give equal or greater buffs to other combat elements within the said faction.

    OKW has NOT received these buffs and coupled with the dilution of its Vet 4 and 5 bonuses, it has become a mediocre faction that has no uniqueness of its own. Instead of making OKW truly stand out as a faction that focuses on elite armour and infantry, it lost all of its trump cards now. It makes me laugh every time I see this image on Steam:

    Third, play as the Wehrmacht or OKW first yourself and THEN judge for yourself if people like me are "Axis fan boys". Currently as of v2.0, both WM and OKW cannot compete effectively against UKF/USF/SU in ALL stages of the game. How many times must I repeat myself? If an Axis player requires more APM to keep his units alive and does NOT get rewarded for this at any stage of the game, then is the game balanced?

    If you haven't already, please cast your votes on Steam to let Relic know what you think about this DBP. In the meantime, I am going to play Men of War Assault Squad 2 to enjoy some balanced gameplay.

  • #763
    3 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @Reichsgarde that graphic is outdated by 3 years. Its as irrelevant as it can get as literally nothing on it is even remotely accurate. Now the goal is for all 5 factions to be equally potent at all stages of the game.

  • #764
    3 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    Well clearly, they are doing a fantastic job achieving that goal with Penals + DshKas just steamrolling through everything that OKW and WM have.

  • #765
    3 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    Also, if it's outdated, remove it. It's false advertisement.

  • #766
    3 years ago
    SaueeeSaueee Posts: 4
    edited December 2017

    (removed)
    SOV have at time of arrival almost no counter aggainst Luchs. yes pak is possibly but luchs just drives to the otherside of the map and 320mp for nothing at that moment. PTRS can keep it at bay but only very short. This change does NOT make luchs worse it just adds some time to prepare for it and not being completly crushed by it as sov. Good change.

    @relic Partisan commander: The intention of the change with spawn infantry nades on cooldown was that they could wipe support weapons instantly. Partisans can't wipe squads with molotov and there is enough time to react. I think you should let Partisans start at least with ready molotov and anti-tank nade. At the current state Partisan tactics are almost usless. The cooldown change was made cause of OKW and British call ins nades where to strong but as a side effect of the change Partisans are much weaker now.
    Thanks

  • #767
    3 years ago
    vsrvsr Posts: 93

    For all axis fan players complaining about the axis nerfs, please stop. Panther got it's vet armor bonus nerf but it got some pretty good anti-infantry buffs, like its mg upgrade is a lot more viable at wiping infantry.

    And for all who complain about allies infantry spam, well this patch did something about it, USF smoke got removed from riflemen, cheap Ostrupen squads get LMGs late game, and on top of all that both axis faction have non-doctrine rocket artys, while only soviets have that.

    Finally, KT's nerf is completely justifiable, cuz a vet 0 KT was wiping infantry, mortars and AT guns almost instantaneously. However, this scatter nerf is only against non-vehicular subjects. So, still remain a fearsome Tank destroyer and as always if used skillfully.

    So, there are plenty of ways around to win a match and not every player is the same. Plus, the current 3v3 and 4v4 automatch searching says almost 60-80% of the players are axis. So, that is self explanatory why allies are in a desperate place.

    Looking forward to this patch. :)

  • #768
    3 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468
    edited December 2017

    90% of the community?! Who are you trying to convince, us or yourself?

    Let me summurize this so called "patch" in a nutshell.

    Allies updates
    IS2
    Popcap from 20 to 22
    No major issues addressed which the community has been touching up on the balance forums since the beginning of January 2017.

    General axis "updates"
    Negative this, negative that, reduced damaged, delayed timing, and plenty of other completely unnecessary changes that were never a problem in the first place.

    The lack of integrity i'm seeing here is appalling. Few If any topics were covered in this patch that we in the forums have been discussing for nearly a year. They weren't even tested! Nor did you try to look into it. Not to mention previous "rushed" patched which never got another look at, I can bring it all up, because there is so, so much to mention, but several others have already said enough.

    I can't believe this is being allowed. This kind of amateur work belongs on the steam work shop, not in an official game.

  • #769
    3 years ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @For the rest of his life said:
    You know what I do apologize, I really wish they would have one stick for the version of the changelog withall implemented changes posted instead of a whole confusing series of changes, because it makes it hard to see which changes are implemented and which ones cancelled

    No trouble, I agree about going back and forth between the logs. But that goes to show how comprehensive the update is too! The guards changes are really good so just glad that they are there at all

    My guards with DT's lost out to unupgraded grenadiers with 0 veterancy in medium range today.... I really really hope they dont backtrack on guards

  • #770
    3 years ago
    EsxileEsxile Posts: 15

    @mrgame2 said:
    Tiger and Panther are being left behind. 90% approval ratings, lol, patting your own back, trolling us aint it Relic?

    It is still and will be Penal Penal Penal Penal (Rfileman/IS), TD wall, rocket arty spam vs. much weaker counters.

    Basically this, Infantry spam, smoke grenades, mortar and than TD wall. Sit back, arty and push forward because Axis cant break through. nerfed Panther is so going to be worthless diving into TD and AT wall.

    Allies meta is alive and easy to follow.

    Even new players joining does this, and i find myself losing 1v1 and 2v2 more than a year ago.

    While 1vs1 lobby is still pretty balance in term of search game, on 2vs2 nobody plays allies. The lobby hardly show a 60/40 on average, it is usually around 70/30 in general in favor of Axis. And from what I have heard here, it is the same situation on 3vs3 and 4vs4.
    This unbalance in search in lobby has already been seen in the past, in favor for Axis when the Axis meta dominated and in favor of Allied when the Allied meta dominated. Thus today the issue is the same, Axis meta dominate at least in team modes. This is why you see more improvement for the allied factions than Axis one in this patch. The hope is to get to the point where the balance is fine enough to reach a 50/50 in the lobby on all game modes.

    The actual situation is not good for everybody, matches aren't usually balance in this state.
    Personally I don´t enter the 2vs2 lobby if the search isn't already around 60/40, below that rate there the risk is too high that the lobby gives me a partner with low ranking vs two average ranking players. Or I search for 2 minutes max and then cut the search so the Lobby doesn't go too far in matching candidates.

    Do not believe only Allied side is affected. In fact this affect much more low/average players than factions.
    We already know that if the search is still balanced in 1vs1, it is only because Allied factions (mostly Soviet and Brit) have a couple of cheesy strats that works well. Those cheesy strats mostly affect low/average players because they are enough easy to be used and require much more knowledge and skill to be counter.
    As there are none of those cheesy strats on team game, less players feel the joy to play Allied in those modes.

    So who are those players who still play Allied. Some are newbies and on "discovery mode", some other average players on "improvement mode" and the rest are veterans who perfectly know map/meta/armies and steamroll games after games when they get matched vs average Axis players.

    Your feeling of Allied meta dominating, easy to follow comes from here, you are not matched vs people from your skill range because there are too few of them, more than it should be, you are matched vs better players than you.

  • #771
    3 years ago
    vsrvsr Posts: 93

    @Esxile said:

    @mrgame2 said:
    Tiger and Panther are being left behind. 90% approval ratings, lol, patting your own back, trolling us aint it Relic?

    It is still and will be Penal Penal Penal Penal (Rfileman/IS), TD wall, rocket arty spam vs. much weaker counters.

    Basically this, Infantry spam, smoke grenades, mortar and than TD wall. Sit back, arty and push forward because Axis cant break through. nerfed Panther is so going to be worthless diving into TD and AT wall.

    Allies meta is alive and easy to follow.

    Even new players joining does this, and i find myself losing 1v1 and 2v2 more than a year ago.

    While 1vs1 lobby is still pretty balance in term of search game, on 2vs2 nobody plays allies. The lobby hardly show a 60/40 on average, it is usually around 70/30 in general in favor of Axis. And from what I have heard here, it is the same situation on 3vs3 and 4vs4.
    This unbalance in search in lobby has already been seen in the past, in favor for Axis when the Axis meta dominated and in favor of Allied when the Allied meta dominated. Thus today the issue is the same, Axis meta dominate at least in team modes. This is why you see more improvement for the allied factions than Axis one in this patch. The hope is to get to the point where the balance is fine enough to reach a 50/50 in the lobby on all game modes.

    Exactly. Achieving 50/50 is the main goal. A lot of my friends stopped playing allies cuz of the OP axis meta and they are all veteran players (over 2000hrs of gameplay). This patch has not done much to nerf axis meta rather it worked on buffing the allies meta. Hopefully, a lot of allies players will come back playing this game again.

  • #772
    3 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    edited December 2017
    @vsr

    Lul wut?!
    You hope that the number of allied players INCREASE, so that more people play the cheese game, because the allied meta was strengthened?! How is that anything but detrimental to the state of the game..?

    You DO ofc realise that If Santa thinks you've been a good enough boy to get this gift for x-mas, that will simply mean that the axis players will start to quit in droves and round and round we go...

    What needs to happen is for the various faction-metas to become less dominant, not to bring more players in to whichever side has the most cheesy meta atm, Jesus!!
  • #773
    3 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 2,007
    edited December 2017
    This patch delivers what I had forseen some time ago already. Lacklustre changes that do nothing to bring about balance or meaningful change in any way. Whether trough incompetence or malignous intent, this patch is in line with a long, long series of others to absolutely fail at its intended purpose. Metas weren't changed, only reinforced. Additionally, your unwillingness or inability to process feedback also makes this thread and the ones surrounding it seem useless.
  • #774
    3 years ago
    vsrvsr Posts: 93

    @Baálthazor

    By metas i meant the **strength ** of each faction, so how else will you balance a game if you take away it's unique meta, then it will be just dull and boring my friend. :/

    The true way of balancing a game is not by taking away its meta, rather balancing the meta itself, if you actually think about it, everything makes sense.

    Soviets won't be soviets if you take away its ability to spam its shear number of cheap infantry and tanks,

    Brits won't be brits if you take away it's ability to play as a defensive doctrine through emplacements and meat shieldign tanks,

    USF wont be USF if you take away it ability to spam its powerful offensive infantry section,

    I dont even need to mention the remaining two, we all know what's their respective meta gameplay is like lol.

  • #775
    3 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    edited December 2017
    @vsr

    Firstly, you couldn't be more wrong. Balancing a game, ANY game, around a meta-way to play it, is what makes it dull and dreary. That way you only ever get to see a couple of strats from each side. How is that not boring?!
    Sure, the brits should stay a defensive minded faction and sure, the USF should stay offensive minded, but if that's ALL they can do, if there are no viable way for the brits to be offensive and for he USF to be defensive, then you kill the fun and thusly the game.
    No, we sure as hell should NOT be balancing the game around a set meta, we should treat the meta-game as a cannibalistic leper and hunt it down with some goddamn pitchforks and torches..!

    Secondly, no you don't need to mention the "OTHER" factions(you know the factions you play AGAINST and which is responsible for half the enjoyment you get out of this game..!! :o), since we all know what you'd like them to be like;
    A same same meta which is easy to predict and easy to counter and only made weaker with each subsequent patch...
    Yes, I think I have a pretty good idea why you love meta-gaming...

    EDIT:
    A quick question;

    Doesn't it grind you to see the same two strats e.v.e.r.y. s.i.n.g.l.e. game from your axis opponents?

    "Omg, osttruppen into pgrens into PIV again?! Laaaame!!"
    "Bah, grens/mg into flame-HT into stugs and tiger's. I was just up against that last game!"

    Does that seriously not bore you to tears?!
    Because I swear, if I have to live through another 4 RM into mortar into Stuart into Pershing, or 3 Penals into mg into T-70 into T-34's galore, I don't think I'll be able to play this game sober any more....
  • #776
    3 years ago
    capiquacapiqua Posts: 270
    edited December 2017

    Relic has invested a lot of time, resources and money in the game to prevent users from using a map hack,
    Why does it now allow in coh2?


    map hack for these units are an jail free card. I suggest adding this from the revampMOD to the December patch:

    Half-track w / Infrared Searchlight

    • Scan range changed from 120 to 70

    Valentine

    • Scan angle / range changed from 179/120 to 120/70
  • #777
    3 years ago
    oRi0noRi0n Posts: 63

    @Katitof said:

    @LetzteJunker said:
    Increasing building time for a Luchs seems to be too big.
    @Mr_Smith
    If it is increased, why producing time of Stuart, T70 and AEC was not?

    Probably because no one does ever anything different then luchs rush, while the 3 you mentioned are fully optional and not seen in every singular game across all skill levels.

    Because everything else sucked. OKW had no early smoke, and no T0 HMG. Therefore luchs was the only way to deal with allied players who rush HMGs early on. They could just grab ground (particularly in team games where flanking is more difficult) almost at will until the luchs came out. Hopefully putting smoke on the leig will fix that issue (should have happened a LONG time ago.

    My fear now is that mechanized will become obselete - luchs comes out too late and you need the BG HQ for the leig smoke. Maybe putting vet 0 smoke on the walking stuka would help. Idk.

  • #778
    3 years ago

    Feuersturm Doctrine

    Incendiary Munitions (Replaces Thorough Salvage)

    • Grants incendiary rounds to Le.IG
    • Fires 5 rounds for 35 munitions (DoT equal to Moltovs)

    these things are too strong and too cheap.

    Anyone tested/used them? Any thoughts?

  • #779
    3 years ago
    vsrvsr Posts: 93

    @Baálthazor said:
    @vsr

    Firstly, you couldn't be more wrong. Balancing a game, ANY game, around a meta-way to play it, is what makes it dull and dreary. That way you only ever get to see a couple of strats from each side. How is that not boring?!
    Sure, the brits should stay a defensive minded faction and sure, the USF should stay offensive minded, but if that's ALL they can do, if there are no viable way for the brits to be offensive and for he USF to be defensive, then you kill the fun and thusly the game.

    Well, if one faction can do all of it, then why do we need others? Oh boy...you are questioning the basic strategies of this game. If brits can be both offensive and defensive, then why need USF and Soviets, and most importantly how would a faction be known for its uniqueness?

    Think harder my friend and you will understand.


    EDIT:
    A quick question;

    Doesn't it grind you to see the same two strats e.v.e.r.y. s.i.n.g.l.e. game from your axis opponents?

    "Omg, osttruppen into pgrens into PIV again?! Laaaame!!"
    "Bah, grens/mg into flame-HT into stugs and tiger's. I was just up against that last game!"

    Does that seriously not bore you to tears?!
    Because I swear, if I have to live through another 4 RM into mortar into Stuart into Pershing, or 3 Penals into mg into T-70 into T-34's galore, I don't think I'll be able to play this game sober any more....

    Well two players may follow the same old tactic but not their gameplay's is the same. I think you are bored with the units itself, rather than the countless number of strategies you can think of. Say, you want to move your forces from point A to B, your imagination is the limit on how you get to B. So, RTS is all about tactical and strategic thinking, well thats where all the fun is my friend.

  • #780
    3 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    Lol, what are even you even talking about anymore..?!
    You're seriously arguing that just because a faction can be both offensive AND defensive, there no reason to play any other?! And having totally different approaches to being offensive/defensive, and having completely different ways to accomplish these things and THEN balancing the game around this, NEVER crossed your mind?

    And kindly don't assume you know didly about me. I am as satisfied with the units as I ever was, I just abhor how some of them behaves atm and I'm hardly alone in that sentiment.

    And no, your imagination is NOT the limit right now! Having multiple ways to move your units from A to B is all fine and dandy, but when only two are viable, V.I.A.B.L.E., then it becomes real tedious, real quick...
  • #781
    3 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951
    edited December 2017

    @vsr said:

    ... rather than the countless number of strategies you can think of.

    I mean, countless might be a bit exaggerated unless the largest number you know is 1. Each faction only has like 2 reliable working strats in live (with a couple cheese options like Arty Regiment, Partisans, etc). Its one of the reasons the new patch is going to be fun even with its flaws, no more Penal/DSHK vs five minute Luchs every fucking game.

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