DBP Balance Feedback

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Comments

  • #842
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    Gren is 240 plus a building too!

    If charging a range unit is so simple, then why are brens and m1911 and bars so OP still?
  • #843
    2 years ago
    @Trump2016 exactly. Depending on cover cons might not be able to fight their balance mate, which is the issue. The onus of micro is on the cons, not the grens so they should be more likley to win should they fill the proper requirements.

    @mrgame2 consider that preemptive unlock for their lmg. But the small cost (80mp and 10 fuel) is less than any tech in the game, hardly worth noting.
  • #844
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    If even the cons can beat grens, wehr may as well drop their inf game.
  • #845
    2 years ago
    vsrvsr Posts: 93
    edited December 2017

    Is the DBP out? 2 gigs?

  • #846
    2 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343
    edited December 2017

    @Katitof said:
    While not really balance feedback, there is one quality of live change I would appreciate.
    Could you maybe change soviet quad upgrade hotkey to something further away from R?
    I end up upgrading bloody thing every single damn time in the heat of battle instead of just reinforcing.
    @Mr_Smith

    e: lolz at the crusade of spamming dislike on me regardless what I'm writing, I see how incendiary feels now

    It's already changed (to F?) for that same reason : p

    @vsr said:
    Here is the real issues,

    @Mr_Smith

    Relic, why these damn raketenwerfer, why is it the only AT, which attacks and instant retreat and can easy blobbed and why the hell these stealth-ability?

    I know the vet bonuses was nerfed, but still these are not preventing it from being blobbed and their notorious stealth is OP. I am not saying that their stealth to be removed, rather restricted to friendly-territory only. They are meant to be a defensive AT unit, not super offensive.

    The raketen is a badly-designed unit that loses to tanks, but denies infantry flanks. Maybe in the future we can look into this. However, none of the changes needed to fix it are trivial.

    @mrgame2 said:
    Yes mrsmith,we want more info about why panther needs to nerf? It sounds dodgy that in some team games, panther spam is OP, thus it needs to be nerfed.

    I look through this forums and panther OP is the last thing even allies players complain about.

    Which panther? The OST panther was buffed, because it needed help to enter the field.

    The OKW panther needed nerfs because its fire-on-the-move accuracy made it too easy to use when spammed. This is a similar situation to what we had back then when the Comet used to have 0.75 moving accuracy modifier. The OKW Panther could get an 1.3 moving accuracy modifier (yes, a bonus, when moving)

  • #847
    2 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    @vsr
    Doubtful.
    They have still to post the final iteration of the DBP in the patch notes, so properly something else in those two gigs.
  • #848
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited December 2017
    Give us back the 10% armor bonus. Make it a vet3 bonus, move vet3 down to vet2. Panther takes a long time to vet up, so the armor skits are now deco only..now you reduced axis unit and make panther more vulnerable...

    I like to be convinced about panther spam to be deducted 2 mp, sorry for such expensive unit, if you let them spam, it's player problem.

    Panther ability to land a hit was bad before dbp, i never hear otherwise. So how will panther attack sniping TD now that it got worse? How do you dive and flank with AT guns and snares in real game when the old panther had problem?

    Im talking about 1v1 n 2v2 games.

    Panzerfaust mostly can't snare the likes of comet
  • #849
    2 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343
    edited December 2017

    @mrgame2 said:
    Give us back the 10% armor bonus. Make it a vet3 bonus, move vet3 down to vet2. Panther takes a long time to vet up, so the armor skits are now deco only..now you reduced axis unit and make panther more vulnerable...

    I like to be convinced about panther spam to be deducted 2 mp, sorry for such expensive unit, if you let them spam, it's player problem.

    Panther ability to land a hit was bad before dbp, i never hear otherwise. So how will panther attack sniping TD now that it got worse? How do you dive and flank with AT guns and snares in real game when the old panther had problem?

    Im talking about 1v1 n 2v2 games.

    Panzerfaust mostly can't snare the likes of comet

    FYI: All Panthers still get the 20% health bonus at Vet2. Thus the armor skirts are far from simply decorative.

    Please refer to the following veterancy guide to see what the Panther does get and doesn't get:
    https://www.coh2.org/guides/29892/the-company-of-heroes-2-veterancy-guide

    Then compare it to other, similar-cost vehicles (e.g., the Comet). Note that Panthers (and Comets) due to their higher survivability are considerably more likely to achieve higher-veterancy status with significantly less effort; especially compared to medium tanks.

  • #850
    2 years ago

    @vsr said:
    Here is the real issues,

    @Mr_Smith

    Relic, why these damn raketenwerfer, why is it the only AT, which attacks and instant retreat and can easy blobbed and why the hell these stealth-ability?

    I know the vet bonuses was nerfed, but still these are not preventing it from being blobbed and their notorious stealth is OP. I am not saying that their stealth to be removed, rather restricted to friendly-territory only. They are meant to be a defensive AT unit, not super offensive.

    If you knew anything about raketenwerfer then you'd know how terribly fragile they are. And the whole "instant retreat" you're talking about works against them, too. Any crowd control abilities make them run back to base just like anything else.

  • #851
    2 years ago

    Oh, the veterancy guide reminds me- I think it's been a long-standing issue that Rangers and Paratroopers are too similar to each other. Paras do a little more damage thanks to an extra model, and can reinforce from beacons. Rangers have a third weapon slot. And that's it for differences. Exact same vet and pretty much the same effective health, even. So why not make them more different with veterancy?

    Paras stay the same. The self healing and ability improvements are good for a behind-enemy-lines type of unit.
    1: -25% ability recharge time
    2: +25% accuracy, +25% grenade range, passive healing
    3: -20% weapon cooldown, -29% received accuracy

    Rangers could change to getting more mileage out of their extra weapon slot, at the cost of improved abilities and self-heal. This would encourage using them more as a one-time munitions cost high-damage squad which still relies on medics. Maybe have improved garands instead of para carbines to flatten out their damage curve.
    1: +10% accuracy
    2: -20% cooldown, -20% reload speed
    3: +20% accuracy, -29% received accuracy

    Anyway, that's just one idea. Not trying to make them better or worse; I just think some way to differentiate the two squads would be good.

  • #852
    2 years ago
    @Mr_Smith is it safe to assume nerfing the range earned through vet was to remedy the raks tenancy to be killed outright by tanks? I dont see the point in denouncing the design when the changes to this patch reinforce all the things wrong with the rak while reducing its ability to perform traditionally. A1 tactic with the raks is STILL going to be "buy a pair, camo, hunt, retreat"
    Perhaps an alternative would be giving it full ramnge but 120 damage and make an ambush mode toggle that camos it (zis camo slow or no movement) and bumps damage up proper like.
  • #853
    2 years ago
    Pipoka_87Pipoka_87 Posts: 4
    edited December 2017

    My thoughts on Grenadiers:

    Add a T4 building 5th man upgrade? Makes OST T4 more appealing, makes Grens harder to wipe late-game when there's shells flying all over the place, doesn't affect their early game power and general power balance between factions for most of the game... And gives you an extra reason for caring about those Vet3 Gren squads, as you know how powerful they'll become if you keep them alive until the lategame... and guess what... It keeps in line with the "lategame faction" design of OST!

    I really can't see the argument for not doing this:
    It's a very lategame buff, an arguably needed one, one that makes sense in the faction's design... And lest not forget, one that you actually have to pay for, both in manpower+fuel at a time when you need it for those fuel hungry tanks, and further manpower cost to reinforce each squad... Sure, if you buy more squads you'll get a 5 man squad for 240mp, you can balance the increase in power with the upgrade cost, and at that point lategame the cost of new basic units wont matter as much as the vetted and elite squads rule the land, easily wiping non vetted basic infantry. The thing is, it comes so late in the game (remember, you have to research ALL Battlephases and then actually build the T4 building, PLUS you have to choose either to spend that Mp+Fuel in the upgrade rather then rushing a Panther or another T4 unit, THEN recall and reinforce your sqauds). That's as much lategame as lategame can be...

  • #854
    2 years ago
    GreenAppleGreenApple United KingdomPosts: 15
    edited December 2017

    @Mr_Smith & @miragefla thank you so much for your work.

    Not sure if this is already too late notice, but I had a DBP 2.0 test game and tried out the new UKF mortar pit. I really like the change that auto-attack range is shorter than barrage range, also smoke barrage is a justifiable adjustment.

    But I noticed that vet1 and vet2 pretty much don't change anything anymore in context of a real fight. Vet1 decreases smoke cooldown and vet2 decreases barrage cooldown. Both cooldowns are already extremly short in the first place, just a few seconds.

    I tested a vet2 mortar pit vs. a vet0 mortar pit and the cooldown changes are pretty much insignificant and not really any beneficial in any regard. There is almost no difference between barrages and barrage cooldown. And a few seconds less, like 2-4 for smoke barrage cooldown.

    Basically regardless of vet0 or vet2 you can fire another barrage after your barrage finished and you can also instantly fire another smoke barrage after your smoke barrage is finished.

    Perhaps other vet bonuses should be given or the cooldowns should be significantly longer at vet0 in the first place. But currently there is almost no difference between vet0 and vet2.

  • #855
    2 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343
    edited December 2017

    @redCOMET said:

    @vsr said:
    Here is the real issues,

    @Mr_Smith

    Relic, why these damn raketenwerfer, why is it the only AT, which attacks and instant retreat and can easy blobbed and why the hell these stealth-ability?

    I know the vet bonuses was nerfed, but still these are not preventing it from being blobbed and their notorious stealth is OP. I am not saying that their stealth to be removed, rather restricted to friendly-territory only. They are meant to be a defensive AT unit, not super offensive.

    If you knew anything about raketenwerfer then you'd know how terribly fragile they are. And the whole "instant retreat" you're talking about works against them, too. Any crowd control abilities make them run back to base just like anything else.

    Which crowd control abilities are you referring to? Raketens cannot be suppressed in DBP.

    Also, if you believe that retreat works against the raketens in any way, just don't use it. It's an option. For the most part, retreat allows Raketens to go to places where they would have no right to exist, and then escape flanks.

    No other AT gun in the game has the possibility to increase the survivability of their crew by two-fold by hitting a button.

    @GreenApple said:
    @Mr_Smith & @miragefla thank you so much for your work.

    Not sure if this is already too late notice, but I had a DBP 2.0 test game and tried out the new UKF mortar pit. I really like the change that auto-attack range is shorter than barrage range, also smoke barrage is a justifiable adjustment.

    But I noticed that vet1 and vet2 pretty much don't change anything anymore in context of a real fight. Vet1 decreases smoke cooldown and vet2 decreases barrage cooldown. Both cooldowns are already extremly short in the first place, just a few seconds.

    I tested a vet2 mortar pit vs. a vet0 mortar pit and the cooldown changes are pretty much insignificant and not really any beneficial in any regard. There is almost no difference between barrages and barrage cooldown. And a few seconds less, like 2-4 for smoke barrage cooldown.

    Basically regardless of vet0 or vet2 you can fire another barrage after your barrage finished and you can also instantly fire another smoke barrage after your smoke barrage is finished.

    Perhaps other vet bonuses should be given or the cooldowns should be significantly longer at vet0 in the first place. But currently there is almost no difference between vet0 and vet2.

    Shorter barrage cooldown is extremely useful, as it allows you to switch target locations faster outside your autoattack range.

    Yeah, the Vet1 is possibly lame, however most Vet1 in the game is lame, anyway.

  • #856
    2 years ago
    Hesky85Hesky85 Posts: 52
    edited December 2017

    @Pipoka_87 said:
    My thoughts on Grenadiers:

    Add a T4 building 5th man upgrade? Makes OST T4 more appealing, makes Grens harder to wipe late-game when there's shells flying all over the place, doesn't affect their early game power and general power balance between factions for most of the game.

    This is the most important thing Wehrmacht needs. 5 men squads that can seriously fight in lategame. I've watched many DBP 1vs1 matches on youtube from good players. I cant see a any gamechanging things that happen to wehrmacht. Early game is still bad, mid game is really okay and lategame is bad ass always.

    What sucks the most: When a random cromwell or T34 shot wipes a clumbed up squad in yellow cover. That happens so often and is damn frustrating.

  • #857
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496

    Yes Wehr dbp play is still same. Still P4 over Panther. Whats the point of Panther armor nerf? Where is proof that Panther spam is problem?

    Mrsmith, even though Panther still have health bonus, losing the armor bonus make no sense. Afaik, Panther has a harder time levelling up, getting to Vet2 is a bonus and deserves the armor as a reward, and it is only +10%. Tell me otherwise.

    T3 tanks level up faster simply because they come out faster, have better AI.

    Comet is good to dive in and out because of higher accuracy and comet rear armor is better. It can go kill a wall of stugs but panther cant against wall of su85/jackson/ff. Its a different play tank.

  • #858
    2 years ago
    GreenAppleGreenApple United KingdomPosts: 15

    Shorter barrage cooldown is extremely useful, as it allows you to switch target locations faster outside your autoattack range.

    Yeah, the Vet1 is possibly lame, however most Vet1 in the game is lame, anyway.

    Hey @Mr_Smith thx for replying.

    I uploaded a little video for you, for better illustration and reasoning.

    I agree with you, cooldown rewards can be extremely useful. I just feel like the cooldown beneftis applied to the mortar pit veterancy are not very useful at all, probably rather quite insignificant.
    I can honestly not think of any or many situations where these few seconds would make somewhat of a difference in mortar gameplay.

    Do you agree? If yes, is there perhaps a possibility of adjusting mortar pit vet1 and vet2 a bit? I guess vet 3 is fine.

    Thx for listening

  • #859
    2 years ago
    KurfürstKurfürst Posts: 289
    edited December 2017

    The OKW panther needed nerfs because its fire-on-the-move accuracy made it too easy to use when spammed. This is a similar situation to what we had back then when the Comet used to have 0.75 moving accuracy modifier. The OKW Panther could get an 1.3 moving accuracy modifier (yes, a bonus, when moving)

    The reasoning is absurd as the Comet is a long range AT/AI unit which is very effective against all, why the Panther is a AT only tool with only very modest AI capacity.

    Plus, apparently somehow 0,65 moving accuracy is a problem with an 50 range tank hunter if its Axis (Panther) but 0,75 moving accuracy it is not an issue with a 60 range tank destroyer (Jackson) that is even more easy to be spammed (and its spammed all the time since rifleblobs do not need AI support), self spots and has gimme 50% more damage button to boot.

    The reasoning that OKW Panther's moving accuracy was a problem simply reeks of bias.

    Moving accuracy is an offensive bonus, which should be present on the Panther, because its an offensive AT unit, that is meant as tool that the Axis have a tank superiority in late game, while Allied TDs are all defensive units that are meant to provide protection from offensive AT and heavy tanks. Meaning that Allied TDs are static AT platforms that deny the area for Axis heavy units, and NOT tank hunters that can advance and hunt down enemy tanks in packs which is what

    There is a reason while the SU 85 (casemate) and the Firefly (slow ROF and weapon rotation) work and the Jackson is flawed - the former fit into the theme by their inability to work offensively really well. High moving accuracy shouldn't be present on any Allied TDs. The 0.75 moving accuracy Jackson breaks that rule.

  • #860
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    Exactly, we cannot just compare stats in insolation. Certain attributes combined with current coh2 meta, works better. Panthers needed the armor and extra firepower against allies defensive line.

    I had a game where 2 panthers were chasing down 1 comet, the comet managed to kill 1 and 60% damage the other before going down. The reason was simple, panthers were huffing to catch it and the slower main gun was also missing more. If the comet had the chance to reverse back towards the defense line, it would have came out tops.
  • #861
    2 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343

    @mrgame2 said:
    Exactly, we cannot just compare stats in insolation. Certain attributes combined with current coh2 meta, works better. Panthers needed the armor and extra firepower against allies defensive line.

    I had a game where 2 panthers were chasing down 1 comet, the comet managed to kill 1 and 60% damage the other before going down. The reason was simple, panthers were huffing to catch it and the slower main gun was also missing more. If the comet had the chance to reverse back towards the defense line, it would have came out tops.

    Without having any video evidence of your claims, my best assumption is that the other guy was using stop-fire micro on his Comet, while you were not using stop-fire micro on your Panthers.

    The Comet has worse range and comparable accuracy to the OST Panther, while having significantly worse accuracy than the OKW Panther.

    You need to start learning how to use stop-fire micro for your tanks.

  • #862
    2 years ago
    KurfürstKurfürst Posts: 289
    edited December 2017

    @Mr_Smith said:
    You need to start learning how to use stop-fire micro for your tanks.

    Or alternatively, just use the buffed Jackson and spam Rifleman.

    https://youtu.be/EAlezFydzwE?t=2282

  • #863
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,672

    @Kurfürst said:

    @Mr_Smith said:
    You need to start learning how to use stop-fire micro for your tanks.

    Or alternatively, just use the buffed Jackson and spam Rifleman.

    https://youtu.be/EAlezFydzwE?t=2282

    The tremendous amount of IRONY, given the jackson is doing EXACTLY what Smith told you to.
    You owned yourself here mate.

  • #864
    2 years ago

    Jackson misses not ONE SINGLE shot while driving. Sorry, but this is pure BS.

  • #865
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,672
    edited December 2017

    @Hesky85 said:
    Jackson misses not ONE SINGLE shot while driving. Sorry, but this is pure BS.

    Yeah... none of the THREE shots on the move, against largest target size in the game on mid range.
    Sorry, but there is nothing wrong with that. No one would miss.

    KT will be hit 100% of the time at half range of any TD in game.

    All the other shots where exactly what Smith said, stop to shoot micro.

  • #866
    2 years ago
    KurfürstKurfürst Posts: 289
    edited December 2017

    Jackson hit % at **max ** range 0,04

    0,04 * 26 (KT size) = 104%, while moving (=x0.75) = 78%
    at Vet 2 (+30% accuracy) 135 % / 101.1 %
    0,04 * 24 (Panther size) = 96%, while moving (=x0.75) = 72%,
    at Vet 2 (+30% accuracy) 124% / 93.%

    Panther to hit KT/Jackson for comparison
    0,04 * 26 (KT size) = 104%, while moving (=x0.50) = 52%
    0,04 * 24 (Jackson size) = 96%, while moving (=x0.50) = 49%

    All the Jackson does need to do is kite any tank in the game as they cant fire at it (range) if they move and they cant hit it if they do. Plus the Jackson of course fires faster. A single Jackson vs a single KT is a dead KT scenario unless you allow it to get close enough, which is very easy to do.

    ANY tank chasing or running from the Vet 0 Jackson is very likely to loose, and _will _loose against a Vet 2 Jackson.

    At 2/3s the price of a Panther, its faster than tanks, outranges them, outshoots them and kite them all day long and appearantly this is still not good enough, it also needs to be just as durable as any medium tank.

    But yeah, Panther having _less _moving accuracy (.65 vs .75) and range was, _somehow _, an issue.

    Jackson should not have higher moving accuracy than 0,50 otherwise Jackson spam will remain the meta in every game.

  • #867
    2 years ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited December 2017

    mrsmith i admit i dont do stop attack. But i doubt my opponent did too. he was reversing out from my territory, i was chasing. I love to have some player input such as stop micro, but i think it is frustrating to lose panther after missing its slow ass shots.

    Im no helpinghans, and lesser player would have seen his KT get rekt by a sniping jackson. Axis heavy tanks had been weakened much to sniping TD. Rear armor nerfs, slower reload and ground shots.

    I dont think we need to nerf jackson more, it and FF damage have been reduced is good. But panther needs more help and not nerfing its armor bonus and reducing on field units.

    By the time a panther get vet2, you can be sure allies TD are the same if not vet3! 2-3 vet3 jackson wall, panthers cant break through....unlike mines, Allies inf snare is much more useful, usf inf blob, forward healing ambulance, 6 man ATG teammates, etc.

    Thus i think Axis needs more armor buff, make it a vet2 bonus, to encourage unit preservation..to come back to wehr late game design.

  • #868
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,672

    @Kurfürst said:
    Jackson should not have higher moving accuracy than 0,50 otherwise Jackson spam will remain the meta in every game.

    Why not using just ATGs then?
    People tend to forget these exist once they can spam tanks.

  • #869
    2 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343
    edited December 2017

    @mrgame2 said:
    mrsmith i admit i dont do stop attack. But i doubt my opponent did too. he was reversing out from my territory, i was chasing. I love to have some player input such as stop micro, but i think it is frustrating to lose panther after missing its slow ass shots.

    Im no helpinghans, and lesser player would have seen his KT get rekt by a sniping jackson. Axis heavy tanks had been weakened much to sniping TD. Rear armor nerfs, slower reload and ground shots.

    I dont think we need to nerf jackson more, it and FF damage have been reduced is good. But panther needs more help and not nerfing its armor bonus and reducing on field units.

    By the time a panther get vet2, you can be sure allies TD are the same if not vet3! 2-3 vet3 jackson wall, panthers cant break through....unlike mines, Allies inf snare is much more useful, usf inf blob, forward healing ambulance, 6 man ATG teammates, etc.

    Thus i think Axis needs more armor buff, make it a vet2 bonus, to encourage unit preservation..to come back to wehr late game design.

    Not wanting to learn to stop before shooting for tank system is the equivalent to not wanting to learn how to use the cover system for infantry fights. We cannot wilfully imbalance the game to account for that.

    @Kurfürst said:
    Jackson hit % at **max ** range 0,04

    Wrong. Jackson accuracy at max range is 0.035; equal to the OKW Panther.

    Now also give us the penetration chances at max range if you'd also be so kind.

  • #870
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 2,006
    > @Mr_Smith said:
    > Not wanting to learn to stop before shooting for tank system is the equivalent to not wanting to learn how to use the cover system for infantry fights. We cannot wilfully imbalance the game to account for that.

    And yet, the US vehicles with their 0.75 moving accuracy promote exactly that which you are mentioning. Chasing a Jackson with a Panther is an unrewarding task because while the Jackson can speed away caring little about having to stop to shoot, the Panther has to or will miss most likely. Hell, they are likely to miss while standing still already. Basically the Jackson has the upper hand, whether he is stationary or mobile. And all that on a vehicle which is significantly cheaper.
  • #871
    2 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343
    edited December 2017

    @Hingie said:
    > @Mr_Smith said:
    > Not wanting to learn to stop before shooting for tank system is the equivalent to not wanting to learn how to use the cover system for infantry fights. We cannot wilfully imbalance the game to account for that.

    And yet, the US vehicles with their 0.75 moving accuracy promote exactly that which you are mentioning. Chasing a Jackson with a Panther is an unrewarding task because while the Jackson can speed away caring little about having to stop to shoot, the Panther has to or will miss most likely. Hell, they are likely to miss while standing still already. Basically the Jackson has the upper hand, whether he is stationary or mobile. And all that on a vehicle which is significantly cheaper.

    USF vehicles also have uncharacteristically large target size for their chassis to make up for that. The moving accuracy modifier is still a penalty; not a bonus.

    You absolutely want to do stop-shoot micro for the Jackson; that's because its accuracy is beyond par of other similar purpose units (JP4, SU85 and Firefly have 0.04-or-above accuracy compared to Jackson's 0.035)

    The Sherman is a slow vehicle with no access to speed boosts.

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