USF SMOKE - Which USF Squad should have access to smoke grenades?
#1
3 years ago
Kyle_RE
Posts: 484 admin
USF SMOKE - Which USF Squad should have access to smoke grenades? 124 votes
Riflemen (Live version)
43%
54 votes
Rear Echelon (December Balance Preview)
8%
10 votes
Riflemen with changes (15MU->25MU, no smoke vet bonuses) - not yet implemented
1%
2 votes
Reach Echelon & Officers (Lieutenant, Captain, & Major) - not yet implemented
12%
16 votes
Officers only (Lieutenant, Captain, Major) - not yet implemented
26%
33 votes
Other (leave feedback below)
7%
9 votes
Comments
If you are going to remove smoke from rifles, you will have to give usf other tools to deal with garrisons. Everyone will build mortar for smoke in dbp. I think giving usf more tools would be better than leaving smoke nades on rifles. You may get away with opening with just rifles in 1v1, but this is hard to do in team games.
Historically, USF was operated by dominant riflemen forces. They need to be capable of dealing with MG, Mortar, and any other heavy weapons. In the game, Riflemen, now, are not even able to fight against Axis forces, using bolt action rifles. Furthermore, USF tanks are too vulnerable to fight against German tanks. In spite of these harsh circumstances, USF could be maintained because of blobbing with riflemen squads (one of the few ways to fight against the Axis, but it is a dominant way among players). Combination of Grenades, BAR, and Smoke grenades is required to fully perform USF Riflemen squads. This is why people love to play USF even though USF is so nerfed.
Flammers on RE.
Even if locked out of the flamethrower RE are cheap as all hell, so pairing them up is no issue (many strats already involve paired RE)
Secondly, putting them on RE while improving RE undeniably, continue to make officers underwhelming and under utilized.
Atm the lieutenant is a fancy rifle squad with nothing exciting going for him at all (the thompson maybe but, meh)
The captain im sure would be ignored entirely if not for the fact that players have no choice but to use him with lieutenant tech being meh and stuart being a safe as hell bet, if players could im sure players WOULD forgoe him, even though he is free...
The major is a FRP that takes up pop, even with his great abilities i rarely see him as more than that
I fear giving it to RE will make overshadow it being on the already underwhelming officers and just continue to push a lack of diversity
The problem with riflemen having the smoke is that it supports rifleblobs, ie just getting a bunch of riflemen together and throwing BARs or LMGs on them. Moving the smoke away somewhat alleviates the issue but does not fix the core issue that riflemen will be used to blob and as a wrecking ball that most axis infantry can't counter unless it blobs. And which can take on HMGs head on, partly thanks to the smoke, but also partly due to the sheer firepower it can muster thanks to the BARs/LMGs.
Which is why i am voting other simply because i'd prefer if we hit the actual problem rather than something that helps the problem, but ultimately not something that is going to make the USF riflebar blob go away or even slow it down that much as the USF has ample of other sources of smoke, doctrinal and non-doctrinal. the riflemen having the smoke just made it incredibly easy, and this will only make it slightly harder to pull off a successful rifle blob.
Meaning we either have to strenghten the counters that aren't the HMG or we have to weaken the riflemen in a sense that discourages blobbing.
Usually what propels any blob is a mix of RA bonuses that mean they don't have to worry about cover and firepower. In this case Riflemen have ample of both resulting in the blob. One option is to hit their RA bonuses as they vet up so they are actually forced to use cover and become easier for basic infantry to shoot to bits or we hit the BAR/LMG and make them less useful for blobbing. One option there could be giving it larger penalties on the move and a slightly longer windup time for the LMG so that blobbing with them becomes less encouraged.
Another option would be to give the axis more sources of suppression so that they can't just smoke the nearest hmg and call it a day.
Either way, it would be wiser to hit the riflemen and their blobbing potential than taking away the smoke. Because all you're doing is just dancing around the issue.. which is that rifle blobs are easy and potent and also do not really encourage elite infantry because riflemen on a cost level simply outperform them at the moment.
Voted officers cause I think that's a brilliant idea to diversify gameplay (especially when USF has so many sources of smoke anyway), but I agree with Dane that there's a need to improve the axis ability to counter blobs in general. Smoke is an aspect of that, but not the whole of the issue.
I'm going to go with RETs, because I'd like them to be something more then repair drones, I'd love to see them being a good support troop instead of regular builder, because USF does not need a builder at all and vehicles crew take care of vehicles alone, that leaves RETs somewhat redundant, however at the same time, I would like to see further changes made to RETs to make them more viable pick as them ending up as smoke nade bots would achieve absolutely nothing - giving them nades as they are already on preview is pointless as they bring absolutely nothing that mortar wouldn't do much better and safer.
I'd be fine with either RE gets it or officers only. Bottom line, smoke on riflemen makes it far too easy for USF to negate prepared positions. USF was given a mortar. USE IT. Smoke on mainlines allows USF to attack anywhere on the fly which is an overpowering advantage. It is a get out of jail free card. Not much preparation is required for USF to attack. I've made a thread a few months back about smoke spamming. The amount of work Ostheer needs to do cause USF threw smoke is staggering. USF simply clicks smoke button and location. Ost needs to shift EVERYTHING back. Mgs and grens then concentrating hard on focus firing squads attempting to flank mg with grens and repositioning hte mg to cover most of the other units. Huge micro difference. All for a lousy 15 munis. Preparing defensive positions is a fruitless endeavor vs USF.
The other problem why even without smoke USF still blobs is due to the fact that infantry still target the gunner on mgs and Relic claims to have fixed this however it is simply untrue. The crew are almost always behind the gunner.
+1 on Dane's comment USF not needing elite infantry. As Ostheer, I'd love another choice of elite inf other than stormtroopers (which aren't that elite compared to allied elites.) Stormtroopers are only good when using tactical movement. Their raw firepower is poor for the cost of the unit and upgrades. And even then, it's difficult using the ability when your RA and movement take quite a massive nerf. Decent players will simply grenade them and the only thing you can do is retreat since dodging is not an option with the movement reduced.
Reasoning: Now if you want smoke on your rifles you need to give up a weapon slot. If you want to use that smoke, you have to have some foresight ahead of time so you can't just panic smoke when you happen to walk into an MG.
After some use I just don't think moving it to REs makes sense. It seems like little has changed as now REs just get included a little more often in rifle blobs. I think changing the mechanic of the launcher itself is necessary. Double equipping bars and being able to cover your approach is a lot for one squad.
I'm down for any combo of REs and Officers, as long as its not on Rifles. 2x Bar + Smoke is just way too much for one squad.
The juggernaut known as riflemen need smoke removed. Period. USF already has potent access to smoke by default on a variety of units. Look into that as well.
Notice that the majority of the people that voted for riflemen have 0 posts on the forum.................. Yes, I am suggesting something.
Probably cause they spend that time playing the game, rather than whining about it.
I've voted for keeping the smke on the Riflemen, since the proposed solutions are unsatisfactory. Mind you, I exclusively play 4vs4 mode and that is what my opinion is based on.
1st : USF really needs their smoke early on to cover infantry, since it has the least diverse opening of all faction (RM, RM, RM...) infantry is its only real offensive (and defensive) force. Forcing the US to invests in a different unit (as in mortar or RE) directly weakens them early game.
In team games, smoking a single MG may often be not enough, when you encouter them in multiples, covering each other (and with an MG bunker behind them to boot), which requires multiple sources of smoke.
2nd: As pointed out by Katitof and hon3ynuts, simply moving smoke to REs is not a solution, since it only turn them into "smoke drones", the change doesn't turn them into an , fun to use unit, it just makes them death weight that doesnt contribute anything to the fight (because of their non existant DPS), built out of sad obligation.
Now, if we were to change RE's into a interesting unit on it's own, or at least an useful one (combat-wise that is) giving them smoke and taking it away from RM would be a viable solution. Giving REs an optional weapon upgrade(M3 Grease guns?) or some sort of IS-esque cover bonus would give them useful early-game firepower, without them becoming too similar to RM.
3rd: Giving the smoke to just the Officers seems really bad, because of their "late" arrival.
I understand that every RM unit having their own smoke is a major PITA in late game. But IMO if nothing is done about the USF early game (at least in team games) the smoke should stay on RM.
Then how come they respond to the poll only hours after it's posted? These people are very active on the forums, all they do is spam the dislike button. Look at Imperial Dane's comment. 7 dislikes and counting. I'm tired of these cowards who have zero reasons against certain people's opinions so they resort to stalking their comments and hitting dislike. I've also had comments that were flagged for no reason by somebody. These sad people are trying to silence by opinion because they know I'm right and have nothing to say against it so they are doing whatever it takes to get me banned. I finally get to see that I was right about my theory of the "Allied Dislike Brigade" on this forum.
Well, disliking someone's opinion is also considered as freedom of speech. They are expressing their opinions by clicking dislike button over someone who thinks USF has strong core infantry or whatever. They could be cowards to fight directly against someone who can be easily provoked by the number of dislikes. BUT you don't need to make all 16 voters as jerks. There would be a reason why they disliked Dane's comment or others.
I disliked Dane's comment because I thought it was arrogant and dismissive of the actual topic. I also think it's strange to suggest that Axis needs more forms of suppression because of 1 of the 3 allied factions infantry.
The great irony is that Dane's been asking to have rifle smoke removed ever since USF came out, and now that it's happening his response is to spend several paragraphs saying "meh, not enough". I think making it take a weapon slot for them would really kill two birds with one stone. Makes double equipping less potent, while making the smoke more costly and require more micro.
Giving only officers the smokes would punish USF more for losing their equivalent battle phase upgrades, as of right now they seem somewhat expendable compared to their OKW counterpart, which has to protect their buildings or else risking the ability to produce high quality units. I'm fine with OKW being somewhat high-risk high-reward, but USF just seems too flexible and can shrug off almost anything they lose, because of their ability to recoup losses, and turn their "green" riflemen replacements into highly effective units against either tanks or infantry by just upgrading them at base with BARs or Bazookas.
I voted to leave smoke on Riflemen.
Until you fix more USF commanders and give abilities like "Smoke Run" on Recon commander, and "Smoke Mortars" on mechanized commander, kinda like Heavy Cav has, there is not enough utility/manueverability to counter the MGs and building play. Buildings force us to keep the smoke on the Riflemen, otherwise the early game is futile.
While we're at it (off-topic) Can we PLEASE but Rangers, Pershing, Calliope, in a few new commanders... Shocks and Storm troopers, Tiger and IS2, are in how many commanders?
Yes I do want to declare winners and losers in a debate. And the winner's idea(s) should be the ones implemented by Relic. Facts over feelings. But I don't set the rules of the forum, I can only try to bend them my way. As Relic has all these politically correct rules like no hurting feelings, no playercard demanding, etc. As I've said earlier, I used to only be a member of CoH2.org but I thought I'd need to be on the official forums to have an impact. Coh2.org doesn't care about feelings and only cares about facts. That forum won't hesitate to ban embarrassingly unknowledgeable members hence the balance ideas and issues are not distorted by amateurs.
For what its worth, I think your idea is very creative and I'd like Relic to at least test that idea out. Not sure what they're gonna do with the animation probably borrow the grenadier rifle grenade one.
But I want to talk about some things.
Basically, Relic forgot made the US military model strong in the early and mid-term through strong infantry and fast vehicle.
At first, the basic design was only the rear echelon and the rifle men. In such a situation, it is difficult to overcome MG42 of osteer smoke grenade, so mortar was added.
To be honest, the most questionable of this patch is that if you steal the smoke grenade from the rifle, it is very difficult for new users to think about whether to take US troops seriously.
In that respect, I think that maintaining the current system is the answer.
I do not think this opinion will appeal to users who play Axis, but I do not think I can. At least if this game develops and wants to keep, I think that relic will make the right decision.
I don't have problems with USF smoke grenade when I play as Axis.
You have so many anti-infantry options its really not a big issue.
JEJUS, PLAY USF PLZ DANE
your vision is so biased because u dont play USF
rifleman blobbing tactic have clear solution and u dont know how to counter them
i have seen your broadcast so much, your skill is so poor even u playing german
you have played german force only and your thinking and vision is so biased
even you dont know anything about what is USF and how to play USF
Hard to counter USF rifleman? so you have to play USF
> @ImperialDane said:
> The problem with riflemen having the smoke is that it supports rifleblobs, ie just getting a bunch of riflemen together and throwing BARs or LMGs on them. Moving the smoke away somewhat alleviates the issue but does not fix the core issue that riflemen will be used to blob and as a wrecking ball that most axis infantry can't counter unless it blobs. And which can take on HMGs head on, partly thanks to the smoke, but also partly due to the sheer firepower it can muster thanks to the BARs/LMGs.
>
> Which is why i am voting other simply because i'd prefer if we hit the actual problem rather than something that helps the problem, but ultimately not something that is going to make the USF riflebar blob go away or even slow it down that much as the USF has ample of other sources of smoke, doctrinal and non-doctrinal. the riflemen having the smoke just made it incredibly easy, and this will only make it slightly harder to pull off a successful rifle blob.
>
> Meaning we either have to strenghten the counters that aren't the HMG or we have to weaken the riflemen in a sense that discourages blobbing.
>
> Usually what propels any blob is a mix of RA bonuses that mean they don't have to worry about cover and firepower. In this case Riflemen have ample of both resulting in the blob. One option is to hit their RA bonuses as they vet up so they are actually forced to use cover and become easier for basic infantry to shoot to bits or we hit the BAR/LMG and make them less useful for blobbing. One option there could be giving it larger penalties on the move and a slightly longer windup time for the LMG so that blobbing with them becomes less encouraged.
>
> Another option would be to give the axis more sources of suppression so that they can't just smoke the nearest hmg and call it a day.
>
> Either way, it would be wiser to hit the riflemen and their blobbing potential than taking away the smoke. Because all you're doing is just dancing around the issue.. which is that rifle blobs are easy and potent and also do not really encourage elite infantry because riflemen on a cost level simply outperform them at the moment.
>
>
>
>
>
> JEJUS, PLAY USF PLZ DANE
>
> your vision is so biased because u dont play USF
>
> rifleman blobbing tactic have clear solution and u dont know how to counter them
>
> i have seen your broadcast so much, your skill is so poor even u playing german
>
> you have played german force only and your thinking and vision is so biased
>
> even you dont know anything about what is USF and how to play USF
>
> Hard to counter USF rifleman? so you have to play USF
Dane is top 100 in usf
Still misuinderstanding, why with grenade upgrade from start USF has mortar avalaible in first building, not in a lu structure.
Better remove mortar than remove smokes to rear echelons. But even this change seems to be OK.
Dane is not in top 100 USF
http://www.companyofheroes.com/leaderboards#profile/steam/76561197970864739/standings
panzergrenadierangrefin, u also play axis only in 1vs1
I KNOW YOU WHO YOU ARE
haha lol you thought I was PG Angreifen? You overestimated my rank by a bit. And Dane was top 100 in USF. He just hasn't played for a month or two as USF
Voted Other = switch Riflesmoke with RE Flamethrowers on the Riflemen Doctrine + leave LTsmoke as a Vet1 ability.
So USF have access to stock flamethrowers to clean building, mortar smoke barrage if it requires early smoke and an offensive smoke solution with the Lieutenant.
Rifle Doctrine gives now free unlocked smoke nade CP0 (raise the smoke price to 25mu to balance it). I think this would suit better the Rifle doctrine thematic.
The unholy hell are you talking about? USF is literally the only faction that has T0 MP only smoke access. The only one. Not including RM, they also have it on their officer units, on the Pack, on the mortar, the M20 can be used to pop a smoke screen vs MGs (though we won't count it purely because it's "hard"), the Scott has both pop smoke AND barrage smoke, Every single Sherman variant, and they have a drop call in on 2 of their extremely meta commanders, being Rifle Company and Heavy Cav. They have, hands down - bar none, no argument no discussion no question the MOST ready access to smoke of ALL factions NOT including Riflemen! If you are having trouble with MGs as USF, please post in the strategy section because USF is absolutely not the faction that is weak vs MGs.
It is all about early game so you can discard Doctrinal abilities and Sherman/Scott.
Smoke works for the lack of flamethrower, lack of capable offensive support unit (sniper or effective mortar) and lack of early light vehicle: The USF mortar alone isn't the solution, it is a solution or part of a unique solution applied individually each game.
USF is victim of its own design based on early strong multi-tool RM and lack of anything else. We can see the problem vs OKW where early RM are overshadowed by Volks getting easier access to their tools + Kubel/Sturm in support. RMs without those tools or getting them too late are simply helpless.
I would agree on getting ride of Smoke nade if USF were getting access to stock FT and Jeep so you can counter building play, Sniper play, have a unit to soak early damage for free (if repaired) and able to quick flank.