[WEHRMACHT] [1 vs 1] - Impracticability of the Panther

#1
2 years ago
ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

PROBLEM

Dear All,

I have been trying to use the Panther in the past 10 or 11 games as the Wehrmacht. As you may have correctly guessed, I am writing this topic to call attention to the sheer impracticability of using the Panther in a real game. As someone who loves using a wide variety of units in each match, it pains me to see that so few people use the Panther in 1 vs 1. I have briefly outlined the problems below:

  • It still costs too much to tech up to T4.
  • Panther takes up too many population points (18) for what it's worth.
  • Panther still lacks the fire rate it needs to handle multiple enemy tanks.

SOLUTION

Given these problems, I ask that @Mr_Smith and his team give another look at the WM Panther.

OPTION 1

  • Lower the Panther population cost back to 16.
  • Keep the Panther as it is.

OPTION 2

  • Keep the Panther population cost at 18.
  • Further buff the Panther's fire rate by another 0.5 seconds for both lower and upper limits.
  • Restore the Vet 2 Armour bonus.

OPTION 3

  • Keep the Panther population cost at 18.
  • Increase the Panther's Vet 0 range to 55 and Vet 2 range to 60.
  • Increase the Panther's stationary accuracy for close/med/long ranges.

I believe that one of these options can make the Panther more relevant and an enticing option for many Axis players.

Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago
    SvanhSvanh Posts: 159
    edited December 2017

    The problem with the Panther is the same problem with T4; there isn't enough extra capability to justify the cost. At the same time buffing the ROF, accuracy, and/or range of the Panther has knock-on effects on allied tank destroyers and the allies' ability to counter it in general. I would prefer the following:

    OPTION 4

    • Keep the Panther's population cost at 18
    • Increase the Panther's penetration profile from 260/240/220 to 300/280/260

    This option keeps population cost parity with the Comet while significantly improving the Panther's DPS against >250 armour targets (Comet, AVRE, Croc, Pershing, IS-2, KV-1, KV-8, KV-2). The Panther, as Ostheer/OKW's heavy vehicle counter, would also have significant enough penetration to justify its increased cost over allied heavy vehicle counters (Firefly, SU-85, Jackson) without adjusting its balance against those same counters.

    This may not be enough on its own to rehabilitate T4. The Brummbar and Panzerwerfer may also need changes to further encourage their use.

  • #3
    2 years ago
    T4 is a hard nut. How do you make the panther worth teching all the way up to it in 1s but not actual cancer in team games where you can skip straight to it and build nothing but panthers while your team covers a more conventional approach? They need to make t4 worth it by making t4 more than just a few niche units. A 5th man gren upgrade for starts would make getting t4 much MUCH more attractive and thus lessen the hurt of teching for meh units
  • #4
    2 years ago
    I always was against a 5th man for ost. Because it would destroy the ost sov matchup.
    But now with cons actualy not being wasted popcap and mp for the most part, i am open to the idea of only grens getting a 5th man after t4 is build.
    Pgrens pios and all others that have 4 remain 4 men squads. They could get some other stuff out of t4.

    The 5th man would basicly be a second lmg. But then provide more hp and dps. G43s would need to be tested if that happens imo.
  • #5
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    You're trying to rush it or transition into it?

    Because DBP made transition easier, rushing it is impractical as ever, transitioning to it is perfectly fine and viable.

  • #6
    2 years ago
    Selvy289Selvy289 Posts: 172
    edited December 2017
    Back to the old OST NEEDS A 5TH MAN!

    I'm against the idea as that would heavily tip balance to one side. The problem has always been survivability with ost infantry in late game so adding a 5th man would require spreading dps across 5 models in which the modders have said a while ago would take far to long.

    I do think I have a solution though.

    How about once teching to tier 4 you can upgrade for an officer as a 5th man.

    This officer is armed with a ostturppen rifle (to minimize additional damage) however, increases the amount of experience the squad gains (like 10%-15%).

    This enables any squads that havnt reach vet 3 gain an advantage while also serving as a advanatge if you have to purchase another squad, think this would be a nice comeback mechanic once upon reaching tier 4.

    I would give this a cost of 50mp and 5 fuel just so people will know what they are getting. Also, the only limitation I would restrict on the officer is to not allow him to preform any abilities e.g throwing grenades, repairing ect.

    He is just serving to add extra survivability and provide a small, passive (mostly, still shoots), non game breaking buff.
  • #7
    2 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    Thank you all for the feedback but I would appreciate it if you guys could focus on the main topic at hand i.e. the WM Panther.

  • #8
    2 years ago
    Selvy289Selvy289 Posts: 172
    edited December 2017
    Option 3.

    Reason: I do believe it should have a very slight range advantage (if the OKW has a range buff through vet probably would need to be looked at) But more importantly I do agree if you stop the panther to shoot, it should score a hit from a medium vehicle and up (the accuracy buff would be good enough).

    Pen is absolutely fine, any more will be a complete over kill. The extra armour made it quite frustration to fight against, clad it's gone.

    Decreasing reload speed will make it an auto cannon, this would devastate heavy vehicles (which is the Panthers purpose, this would be also an overkill through).

    Pop cap is fine.
  • #9
    2 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    edited December 2017
    @thedarkarmadillo
    As always, I'm against the Ost getting a 5th man, through teching or otherwise. The Ost was built around 4 man squads and should remain as such. Especially seeing as there are plenty of other options available to them.
    They could get an accuracy or raw dps boost, or received accuracy buff.(Received accuracy on mainliners has been tried before and we got the abomination which is the RM, but since the grens would remain a four man squad, I predict it would be fine)

    Or my favourite option, make them able to upgrade to either two lmgs or lmg and g43. Decrease the dps on the second lmg/g43's a bit to not make them overpowered and it should make it all good imho.
  • #10
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    There's 2 problems. One is mode scaling. Any change to access to T4 designed around 1 v 1s is going to tank 4 v 4s. We're all well aware of that at this point. The second problem is always going to be why invest in additional tech and a Panther when I can just get moar StuGs? Why wait for the Brumm when I can double down on Ostwinds? The only thing that's actually worth getting to in T4 is the Pwerfer and that's only because there's nothing else like it anywhere in the roster.

    An idea I've been toying with would be reverting the current tech changes of Ost so it goes back to being quite expensive, but giving all Ost T3 vehicles a withdraw ability unlocked at vet 3 which removes them from the field but applies a cost decrease to teching. This gives Ost the ability to either pay a premium to rush T4 or allows them to gently transition as the game progresses if they can keep their armor alive, and even then it will remove their vetted armor from the field so the T4 vehicles don't roll out with insane amounts of support already present.

    It allows easier access to T4, but because it's tied to vet and fighting and T3 vehicles, you can't rush it any faster in 4 v 4s.

  • #11
    2 years ago

    @Reichsgarde said:
    Thank you all for the feedback but I would appreciate it if you guys could focus on the main topic at hand i.e. the WM Panther.

    I think the point people are making is that there is little wrong with the panther other than what is required to get it. Access to T4 is still the problem here, and I don't think the cost rearrangement really addressed that. Adding incentives to t4 or reducing requirements seems to be the best way to approach it rather than buffing the panther.

    You need to give up on the armor bonus man, the fact that it gets a health buff is already a great bonus to survivability, which is already one of its strengths given its high armor value. The only direct performance change I can see any logic to is main gun accuracy by way of a vet bonus. Other than that its boosting t4 for me as well.

  • #12
    2 years ago
    @Baálthazor i also am not a huge fan of a 5th man for the reasons you mentioned, i think it suits the g43 upgrade personally but all in all 5th man DOES go against the design. My suggestion was more of an idea of ,"along these lines" type thing.

    Im not a fan of double LMG because it IMO puts too much burst damage on a squad (not im against it for all factions not just ost) the only squad it works on is guards because the DPS from the DPs (lol) offset the PTRS nicely but also deal less burst outright.

    Ideally BP changes wouldnt offer straight buffs but instead a chance to spend munitons on a per unit basis to widen the importance of muntions and make it a bit more competitive vs fuel.
  • #13
    2 years ago
    SvanhSvanh Posts: 159

    @Selvy289 said:
    Option 3.

    Reason: I do believe it should have a very slight range advantage (if the OKW has a range buff through vet probably would need to be looked at) But more importantly I do agree if you stop the panther to shoot, it should score a hit from a medium vehicle and up (the accuracy buff would be good enough).

    Pen is absolutely fine, any more will be a complete over kill. The extra armour made it quite frustration to fight against, clad it's gone.

    Decreasing reload speed will make it an auto cannon, this would devastate heavy vehicles (which is the Panthers purpose, this would be also an overkill through).

    Pop cap is fine.

    The problem with the range increase is that it halves the SU-85 and Firefly's range advantage at vet 0 and removes it completely at vet 2. This renders both useless against a vet 2 Panther and significantly less useful against a vet 0 Panther when they are supposed to be the allied counter to it.

    A penetration buff doesn't affect the Panther's capabilities against allied TDs but does give it more of an edge over Comets and Pershings. The penetration buff does not need to be as large as I've suggested (maybe 280/260/240?).

    An Ostheer five-man upgrade is going to be ridiculously difficult to balance. I'd prefer to adjust the other T4 units to make them more attractive in 1v1.

  • #14
    2 years ago
    ReichsgardeReichsgar… Bad Tolz, Bayern, GermanyPosts: 121

    First of all, merry Christmas everyone!

    I am also against the idea of giving a 5th man to all WM infantry squads. However, I do agree that WM infantry in general lacks the "oomph" required to stem the tide of Soviet Penals (God, they're strong) and the British Infantry Sections.

    But I strongly recommend that @Mr_Smith and other members of the patch development team to seriously consider giving the WM Panther some extra boost in the following manner (JUST ONE WILL DO!):

    • Stationary accuracy boost
    • Modest range boost
    • Reload speed boost (0.5 seconds to 1 second)
    • Modest penetration boost (to ensure that each shot connects considering Panther's mediocre rate of fire)
  • #15
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    Quick question to above, can you please describe how you use ost infantry?
    Which units you build and how you use them?

    Because spammed USF is the only infantry they actually struggle and if you play with grens only and still want 5th man, then you should play OKW instead.

  • #16
    2 years ago

    Panther will become useful only if it really will start to fill own place in TD "food chain".
    As we know, Stug G is great, but existing of SU85, Firefly and Jackson will not give Stug to dominate on the battlefield.
    Now without picking a doctrinal Jagdtiger or Elefant this trio is dominating late game tank combat because of price and quality, so Panther using is... Impractible? Nice word, i like it.
    If panther, as a more expensive tank destroyer, will put shit out of allied dead trio of tank destroyers, it will be useful. In other cases it still be lackluster as it is now or before the patch.
    In this case the best buff of a panther is 55 range and 60 range on vet2.
    It will not badly affect the balance and will not make panther overdominant because it still be useless against cheaper AT counterparts like penals, guards, PTRS-cons, PIAT sappers, zookRE and all types of ATGs.

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