[All][Ost] Grenadier Scaling

124678

Comments

  • #92
    1 year ago

    @thedarkarmadillo My mistake, that's a fair point. At least Rear Eches need racks to be effective, sappers with just the 5th man can provide more than their worth. Echelon's sweeper should be made to take up a weapon slot, I'm not sure why it still doesn't, but that's for another topic.

    Maybe do the split RA bonuses at vet 2 and 3, but give a new vet 1 ability in place of medkits. They could get their own version of hit the dirt, maybe a timed thing that costs muni as opposed to a toggle because I don't think it should be free if its a stock ability. You should still be able to cancel it of course, but not sure what numbers would go into it statwise.

  • #93
    1 year ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    On a side note anyone know if its even possible to apply explosive resistance to a squad? Do they have damage modifiers that differ depending on the type of weapon being used? Given that the KV-1 is the first unit (that I know of) with any kind of received damage modifier, I don't know if the flak jacket thing is even feasible.

    I believe its possible, but its a pain in the ass. IIRC, you would have to go through the profile of every single explosive and add a clause to reduce damage by x% against Grens to them all individually.

  • #94
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited February 2018

    Aqua That's what I was afraid of, that's too painstaking to implement and could cause a whole list of other issues. Might have to wait til coh3 for anything like that.

    Is a health vet buff for infantry getting too wild? In a sense you could make them close to a 5 man squad in terms of health pool, but without needing to re-balance their offensive stats like you would if you added the 5th man. Maybe like +15hp per model at vet 3, or in the final tier. Snipers would be unaffected given that their weapons operate on death criticals.

  • #95
    1 year ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    Aqua That's what I was afraid of, that's too painstaking to implement and could cause a whole list of other issues. Might have to wait til coh3 for anything like that.

    Depends on how you look at it. Even if it only affected rocket arty and mortar shells, that's still a huge deal for their survivability and most other explosives like tank shells, grenades and off-map have their own reasonable levels of counterplay already.

  • #96
    1 year ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited February 2018

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    Is a health vet buff for infantry getting too wild? In a sense you could make them close to a 5 man squad in terms of health pool, but without needing to re-balance their offensive stats like you would if you added the 5th man. Maybe like +15hp per model at vet 3, or in the final tier. Snipers would be unaffected given that their weapons operate on death criticals.

    Probably the best idea in years. Wonder why nobody thought of that earlier. Turn down the RA a bit to compensate

  • #97
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,640

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    Aqua That's what I was afraid of, that's too painstaking to implement and could cause a whole list of other issues. Might have to wait til coh3 for anything like that.

    Is a health vet buff for infantry getting too wild? In a sense you could make them close to a 5 man squad in terms of health pool, but without needing to re-balance their offensive stats like you would if you added the 5th man. Maybe like +15hp per model at vet 3, or in the final tier. Snipers would be unaffected given that their weapons operate on death criticals.

    Relic removed bulletins that added 2 hp to infantry, because it was most overpowered thing this game has ever seen and you think it should come naturally, making the squad immune to mortars, nades, light tanks and more?

  • #98
    1 year ago
    Health over RA seems simple, but it opens up a wealth of side effects: longer time to heal up, infantry combat ends up feeding vet (more hits=more vet), harder to punish out of cover. Longer time in WP/flames just to name a few off the top of my head.
    Not saying its a bad idea, especially if tied to BP3, just that its not as simple as it seems
  • #99
    1 year ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    I just lost to a guy ranked 1500+ somwthing... I guess I'm sitting pretty at around the same level...

    Back in the day, I gave Siberian a run for his money, same for Luvnest... Now, I'm struggling to keep my grens Alive Vs 1500+ players...
    How is this "competative"!!
  • #100
    1 year ago

    Grenadiers really aren't up to snuff right now. Their DPS isn't reliable because every model that drops reduces their damage drastically and they are easy to wipe out with lucky artillery or mortar hits because small squad = less total area that the squad covers = greater chance they're all bunched close enough to get rekt by explosives. They're not cheap, either, per model, even if their total squad cost is only 240. Relying on support weapons is not a strength, it's a weakness. Support teams are slow and cumbersome and grenadiers aren't tough enough to hold the line. Saying they're the faction that's supposed to rely on combined arms is bullshit. They're supposed to be the elite faction - like Protoss. Low numbers, high unit cost, but exceptionally strong individually.

    The actual support faction is Soviets. They have a much better toolkit for playing around combined arms and support weapons than Ostheer does or EVER did. Cheap meat shield frontline that exists just to soak fire, hold the line and take map objectives, with an ability to reinforce more valuable assets on the field? Check. Anti-Tank guns that double as field artillery? Check. Machine gun that responds quickly to flanks due to low setup/pack-up time and can sprint to help with an offensive or a flank? Check. Mortar that gives vision for a variety of purposes while also being a decent bombardment weapon? Check. Doctrinal elite infantry to patch holes where needed? Check. See where I am going with this?

    I'm NOT complaining that Ostheer needs all this or that Soviets are too strong. I'm just highlighting that arguing that Ost are the support weapon faction is ridiculous. They're not, at least they haven't been in years. ALL of their support team abilities focus around making the particular unit better at what it already does. TWP, Incendiary Ammo, Mortar passive buffs.

    Soviet buffs recently have been completely backwards, as you see. Instead of making Conscripts fight Grenadiers on equal footing (which they NEVER should be able to), they should have made them even more shit, cut their price and reinforcement drastically and made them the meat shield zerg swarm they are supposed to be. Sure, they'd be fucking terrible in a fight, but there'd be a lot of them to take map control, hold garrisons, objectives and overwhelm better Axis squads in numbers.

    Again, Soviets were in a bad spot for a long time and I'm not calling for nerfs to them. I'm saying that their whole direction makes absolutely zero sense and completely dilutes the spirit of the faction. Make Conscripts shit. Make T-34's shit. Make all their stuff absolutely, terribly shit. Just make sure they're cheap as all hell and can perform their function when played correctly. T34's are SUPPOSED to be sacrificial lambs that get 3-4 shots in, with maybe one penetrating, before they Ram the Axis tank and let others take it down. That is their design. Apply it across the board to the Soviet faction. Don't buff the Conscripts to fight Grenadiers toe to toe. That's not their fucking job. Their job is to purchase battlefield success with their lives.

    And after that little rant, we're back with Grenadiers. They really can't compete with other infantry in the game right now. And yes, they do need to be able to fight Rifles and Sections. Even if they're cheaper in total squad cost - they're still only four men compared to five that USF (and UKF have the option to) get. It's 60MP per Grenadier, 56 MP per Rifleman. I don't agree that more expensive should always mean better, but in this case, I do. Grens definitely need some kind of a rework. So does the entire Ostheer faction, but Grens are a good place to start. USF is generalist, Soviet is specialist, UKF/Ost are elite and OKW is an abomination.

    My suggestions (in current version, if nothing else was tweaked): make them more durable to small arms from Vet0 by adjusting received accuracy modifiers. Fuck off with the worthless Vet1 ability that is nothing but a waste of time and munitions and let them construct any of the three Bunkers without the Munitions cost, one time only, after reaching Vet1. Remove ability to normally build Bunkers. They'd still be vulnerable to mortars and artillery, but would be able to give a fair fight to other mainline infantry and allow them a bit more mobility and durability by allowing that Bunker to be built with only 150 MP. They still wouldn't be spammable, but at least they could exercise a bit more map control and be able to hold objectives better.

  • #102
    1 year ago

    @Baálthazor said:
    I just lost to a guy ranked 1500+ somwthing... I guess I'm sitting pretty at around the same level...

    Back in the day, I gave Siberian a run for his money, same for Luvnest... Now, I'm struggling to keep my grens Alive Vs 1500+ players...
    How is this "competative"!!

    LOL really? Rank 1500? My Ost 1v1 rank was in free fall for the last few days. Pre-patch I sat at around rank 150. For the last week, I've hovered around rank 300-400 losing to players up to rank 600. I've finally optimized the maps and doctrines I need to "deal" with the new op metas that are coming out. Today I've finally clawed my way back to rank 200.

    BTW I don't use grens much. Either I go Ostruppen, or mg+pio strats. The only time i use grens are elite troops against those USF or penal Soviet players that believe they deserve to win every skirmish, and regardless of situation or terrain, come charging at you like Rambo on steroids. Grens remain crap. They are more usable against SU due to less penal builds but less usable against Brits if you don't have double mortars backing them up.

  • #103
    1 year ago
    @1ncendiary_Rounds 201. Let's not inflate our ranks shall we xD
  • #104
    1 year ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    @thedarkarmadillo It definitely comes with some extra work. My point is those fixes seem easier than going through every single explosive weapon in the game and adjusting the stats against grens specifically.

    dont get me wrong, i dig the idea... very much. just sayin it could have adverse effects

  • #105
    1 year ago

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    @1ncendiary_Rounds 201. Let's not inflate our ranks shall we xD

    Sorry for the massive exaggeration.

  • #106
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    I'm guessing since the Gren discussion is still running, even after a six month absence, of which I missed a major patch and half a dozen hotfixes, that the game has not taken a significant step in bringing OST and SOV up to scratch when in competition with the WFA factions?

    Just chiming in after a brief scan of the past comments on this thread, a vet change in the form of a reduction in explosion damage seems like it would be the most ideal change to test, as Grens being a four man team all game, always leaves them incredibly vunerable to being instagibbed. Whereas in my experience, in the rare case they reach end game and your opponent isn't spamming indirect fire units, they are actually quite effective at their job when given the chance, and of course when being properly supported.

    Not gonna lie, I had hoped that in my time away the meta would have shifted away from overly effective indirect fire units, that alone would put both OST and SOV in a much better place.

  • #107
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,640

    @Farra13 said:
    I'm guessing since the Gren discussion is still running, even after a six month absence, of which I missed a major patch and half a dozen hotfixes, that the game has not taken a significant step in bringing OST and SOV up to scratch when in competition with the WFA factions?

    Actually, both got plenty of adjustments.
    But you can read that in the patch notes.

    Conscripts are usable for example.
    However some people believe ost should be carried on the backs of grens, which modders who deliver the patches to us do not seem to agree with.

  • #108
    1 year ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited February 2018

    @Katitof said:

    @Farra13 said:
    I'm guessing since the Gren discussion is still running, even after a six month absence, of which I missed a major patch and half a dozen hotfixes, that the game has not taken a significant step in bringing OST and SOV up to scratch when in competition with the WFA factions?

    Actually, both got plenty of adjustments.
    But you can read that in the patch notes.

    Conscripts are usable for example.
    However some people believe ost should be carried on the backs of grens, which modders who deliver the patches to us do not seem to agree with.

    The only changes to grens are that the pop cap was reduced to 6 which isn't much of a change after the clearly superior IS also was reduced to 6. Most people did not say that grens should carry Ostheer in the early game.

  • #109
    1 year ago
    @Katitof i think you mean "some people think your core infantry shouldnt lose in EVERY scenario from the word go or evaporate to a random mortar/tank shell taking their vet and muni upgrades with them in the late game"
  • #110
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,032
    He might also mean some people would also like grens to get basic quality of life updates like split rec acc vet to include vet 1 (only one of the changes given to cons that helped tremendously in getting them to stand up to OKW) because we aren't afraid of the ostheer boogeyman and realize the war ended like 80 years ago. But thats some people.
  • #111
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited February 2018

    Most players understand why Grens shouldn't be able to match their allied counterparts in a direct, unsupported, head to head fight, nor be able to effectively "carry" OST through sheer cost effectiveness.

    But their fragility is still a major issue that really hamstrings them, something the spacing change a couple patches back helped to a certain degree. But in my last game, over the course of thirty minutes, I lost two fully vetted squads just to two rng t-34 shots. Partly because of the way infantry bunch up on scenery when retreating, but the major factor is still the fact that it is a four man unit.

    Its pretty damn harsh losing a vetted squad, but it does happen, however the consistency of which I lose Grens compared to say rifles or volks is obscene. Whether its a stray mortar shot whilst moving through yellow cover, or an allied grenade from the flank, the squad gets instagibbed far too often, and replacing them multiple times over a game becomes a real mp/muni sink.

    I think they are fine combat performance wise, I don't ever find myself at a major disadvatage with them anymore, as long as they have mg/vehicle cover, and their utility is excellent, (though I am still on the wall over letting them build sandbags). But as the game progresses and the more powerful vehicles and arty hit the field, I don't expect to have much more than a token squad for the faust by late game, my focus shifts to pios for repair and P-grens for taking ground, Grens just become to big a liability despite being the core OST infantry.

  • #112
    1 year ago
    +15hp per model is probably way too much even for a late game buff. Maybe they could do a received damage modifier like the kv1 has. Something like -5% damage from all sources locked behind t4. That would get around the increased healing time issue.
  • #113
    1 year ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235
    edited February 2018

    I do agree with the spread of RA and/or make it higher throughout vet would fix the problem.

    Been using Ost this year.
    I do feel that Gren kinda weak even spam.
    Also 30MP reinforce makes it hard to tech
    if you spam them more than 4 squads

  • #114
    1 year ago

    I know this sounds dumb, and I know that I'm not nearly as experienced as basically everyone in this thread, but since the suggestions are either: too much of a pain in the ass, or making grens way better than everyone else by accident, here's my suggestion:
    At vet 1, since cons just got a shiny new stat tacked on to their vet 1, maybe you could give Grens access to a similar system that Penals have, to where if they lose men (since grens almost always lose one model immediately) they fight harder and take slightly less damage. This wouldn't make them as good as penals, as Penals have semi-auto rifles that fire on the move and can just close the distance on a Gren if he doesn't have MG support, although I have no idea how this would make grens vs cons, rifles, or sections.
    Feel free to ignore or whatever, just an alternate solution.

  • #115
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,640

    @Hankmeupinside said:
    I know this sounds dumb, and I know that I'm not nearly as experienced as basically everyone in this thread, but since the suggestions are either: too much of a pain in the ass, or making grens way better than everyone else by accident, here's my suggestion:
    At vet 1, since cons just got a shiny new stat tacked on to their vet 1, maybe you could give Grens access to a similar system that Penals have, to where if they lose men (since grens almost always lose one model immediately) they fight harder and take slightly less damage. This wouldn't make them as good as penals, as Penals have semi-auto rifles that fire on the move and can just close the distance on a Gren if he doesn't have MG support, although I have no idea how this would make grens vs cons, rifles, or sections.
    Feel free to ignore or whatever, just an alternate solution.

    That is actually pretty modest suggestion, however we need to remember that majority of gren DPS comes from one singular LMG model, which means it could become optimal to actually lose models to snipe models harder by themselves.

    Penals not having weapon upgrades other then PTRS and relying only on stock weapon do not suffer this issue, however every squad with upgradable weapons will.

  • #116
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,032
    edited March 2018
    Not only that - but Grens are notoriously easy to lose. 4 models just isn't enough to make that vet ability worth while to them.

    I like the thinking but its just the wrong unit for it.
  • #117
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    I dont remember if it was this thread or another but to again throw it out there i think grens could do with the con treatment on vet 1 (rec acc buff) and a changed vet 1 that complements their reliance on the MG42 to make up for their squishness. Make them a proper glass cannon that can shine with the support the ost champions
  • #118
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,032

    It was this thread. The most sensible suggestions we've had for fixing grens are space out their rec acc so they get a little at vet 1 just like cons did, and change the vet 1 medkit to passive bonus damage (or, less of a penalty I guess) shooting at suppressed or pinned infantry to emphasize Grens role of being subservient to the MG42, rather than totally independent of it.

    Pros:
    Makes Grens less power spikey
    Lowers Osts early bleed - especially vs WFA
    Doesn't make them no-brainer A-move units
    Reinforces faction "theme"
    Doesn't change their lategame potential

    Cons:
    It's an Ostheer buff, which for some reason is terrifying

  • #119
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    Maybe a little off-topic, but it does bear a relation. As well as the rec acc buff for grens, giving the bf4 research an additional benefit of increasing the pios to a five man squad would be a serious help for ost. It gives them a durable squad that isn't effective blobbed to cap points late game, taking the pressure of the fragile p-grens and grens you have to risk taking vps that draws all that excessive indirect fire.

  • #120
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited March 2018

    Imo one should tone down allied infantry AI and VGs ST44.

    Grenadier worked fine before the introduction WFA and the buffs to Soviet units.

    (AOE damage is separate issue imo)

  • #121
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    I agree with vipper but i after all the changes so far i dont see them back tracking on 4 factions for the sake of 1 sadly
Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

  • © SEGA. SEGA, the SEGA logo, Relic Entertainment, the Relic Entertainment logo, Company of Heroes and the Company of Heroes logo are either trademarks or registered trademarks of SEGA Holdings Co., Ltd. or its affiliates. All rights reserved. SEGA is registered in the US Patent and Trademark Office. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.