[All][Ost] Grenadier Scaling

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Comments

  • #122
    1 year ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    @Mr_Ruin You missed my point entirely. Again you are looking at balance with massively flawed logic if you're saying it's okay to give things to one faction just because it's on another.

    You said "we can do it back again"; dude that's the whole point. You can go back and forth all day, it's just a massive waste of time. Sure give grens the cover bonus. But make them 40mp more expensive. Want 2 lmg42s? Nerf their dps so they're the same as bren. Do you see why this is pointless? There are too many other things that are different about each faction to just clone things and give them to out because someone else gets them.

    5x man IS with 2x Bren and medic upgrade and grenade costs 708 manpower, 70 fuel, and 170 munitions ?
    Fine. Gren gain that, but lose the Panzerfaust and the bunker and can only make Sandbags and Trenches.
    No more 0 pop Bunkers (even from Pios). No more Halftrack with dual flamethrower that you can reinforce
    from (before it upgrades). Also, you need to move pio to T2. So no barb wire, etc.
    Also LMG42 is now nerfed ~ -40% so you NEED to buy 2x for 120 munis - and go back to HQ to upgrade).

    708 manpower, 70 fuel and 170 munitions (I didn't include ANY upgrade that improves the faction, only the
    IS-specific sidegrades).

    I know, it'd be nice and fun to have the IS upgrades on the Grenadier. But you'd have to deal with the rest of
    their situation, too. Not just cherry-pick.

    I think you can have 3-4x Grenadier Squads with 1x LMG42 upgrade each vs 1x IS fully upgraded.
    Gren would have bunkers, rifle grenade, panzerfaust and their LMG42 upgrade. ALSO can heal each other or
    themselves :) who wins?

    I think Germans would LOVE to have 2-3x LESS Grenadier squads just to get one super one vs hordes of Penals :)

  • #123
    1 year ago

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Grens SHOULD be beating cons more or less, and seeing as cons got a little buff for their vet 1 it seems balanced to grace grens with something similar as they were previously balanced to each other (and cons got more reliable AND rec ac at vet 1 now)

    Cons were not buffed as much as sidebuffed.
    They used to do 16-17 dmg per shot. That was lowered to 10-12.
    If you then buff Grenadiers, they'd have to be re-balanced too.

    It'd never stop.

    ================
    Vipper
    Posts: 3,583
    edited January 27

    As I have been saying all along infantry available before minute 1 should all be re-balanced one vs the other and their vet bonuses and abilities looked at. (While ostheer should be used as the benchmark)

    (For instance Penals start one of the most powerful infantry in their time frame and get some of the highest vet bonus)

    --

    Of course! I'd be happy for Grens to be 6 men with G41 rifles and Satchels if they also lost : Med pack, Bunkers,
    LMG upgrades, PzFaust and access to MG42s. Oh, and they'd also need to cost 300 each, not 240. And their pop
    per squad value would also go up from the current 6. And if they want AT, they'd get 3x Weakened Panzershreks
    who do 20% dmg each and lose most of their AI.

    You can't cherry pick.
    I know German tanks would be awesome if they cost less pop and less fuel and could-self repair and could
    do the USF trick of jumping out of tank to eventually have 25x Panthers that repair one another and can switch
    HE and AP ammo and can throw grenades and have a tank commander, and can have smoke, and offensive
    smoke and have 0.75 accuracy on the move, and hull down, and tank leader bonuses, and STILL KEEP BLITZKRIEG

    At this point, do you want every unit in the game to be identical, or should all these abilities be taken from allies
    to be given to the Germans ? (Quality AND Quantity)

    while making allies cost a lot more, with heavy nerfs, with complete removal of abilities?

    Because that is what you are asking for.

  • #124
    1 year ago

    You don't just want German Units. You want superior German Units with Allied Abilities meant to balance the two
    added to your superior German Units, while keeping the German abilities.

    • Should allied units then gain German Quality on top of Quantity?
    • Should every unit in the game be absolutely identical, then?
  • #125
    1 year ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    @Katitof Cons were well balanced with grens before the patch, then we decided it was okay to give Cons a complete rework while only giving grens a popcap reduction. For you to suggest we can't buff grens without doing the same for cons is incredibly short-sighted, because we literally just did the reverse of that.

    Conscripts were worse than grens pre-patch sure, but both were out of place performance wise vs wfa infantry, and only one of them was properly adressed.

    ==========
    Players always went Maxim or Penal.
    Cons were ONLY used with the PPSH upgrade.

    The point of that part of the patch was to un-extinct an extinct unit.
    A unit that screams manpower bleed and is largely inefectual and costs considerable fuel to make semi viable.

    You need a dedicated conscript commander with conscript bulletins to make conscripts viable.
    I don't see Grenadiers needing THAT much support to be able to hurt anything.

    You asked for the Maxims to be nerfed.
    Result was Penal Spam.
    You demand Penal spam be removed, but that is not an option without buffing the conscript.
    And that can't happen without changing the whole balance of things. It got a sidebuff of sorts,
    which came with numerous nerfs (can only pick up 1 weapon, not 2) and doing less dmg per shot.
    In exchange for a very slight accuracy buff.

    If you then buff Grenadiers and VolkGrenadiers, you'd have to rebuff everything and/or make
    everything mirror stat, and nerf Wehr Support weapons.

    You choose to cherry-pick your buffs without understanding the nature of the delicate balance at play.

  • #126
    1 year ago

    @Pastulio said:
    And +1 to pioneers, so they could be like sappers.

    ===========
    They'd still need the +150 manpower +35 Fuel upgrade up-cost.
    Also Pioneers would need to come around T2 Tech Time. No more early Pios.
    Also Pios would need to lose their current superior sight radius, as well as 0 pop MG Bunkers
    And...

    You just want all the pros, without any of the cons, admit it.

  • #127
    1 year ago

    You people all talk about Grenadier scaling and it being in danger of being wiped...
    What about SturmTiger wiping 4x full 5x man vet 3 double BAR USF Riflemen in a single shot?

    Why is it only valid one way and not both ways?

    And if Gren ought to scale, why shouldn't Conscripts as well, assuming Soviet decided to forgo Penals and
    Maxims, but went full Conscripts?

  • #128
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    > @Felinewolfie said:
    > You people all talk about Grenadier scaling and it being in danger of being wiped...
    > What about SturmTiger wiping 4x full 5x man vet 3 double BAR USF Riflemen in a single shot?
    >
    > Why is it only valid one way and not both ways?
    >
    > And if Gren ought to scale, why shouldn't Conscripts as well, assuming Soviet decided to forgo Penals and
    > Maxims, but went full Conscripts?

    Dont blob and suddenly the sturm tiger is a hell of alot less scary. The problem with grens is you dont NEED a single purpose, doctrinal, fire once every year unit to wipe them. 240mp for a mortar and a small dice roll is more than enough.

    And cons were in need of a buff, they got it. Foregoing penals IS an option now. Cons are spooky shit and it IS possible to go VERY heavy in conscripts now. The same in grens will bleed you dry and have little impact, which is fine because of faction design, but even supported and integrated grens with combined arms are trash. Is there any other unit in the game that NEEDS to be backed up by a unit that reduces its dps inorder to fight off more than an engineer unit?
  • #129
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Also: if you even THINK "omg my attack move blob died IMBA" you are cancer and are the reason this game is in such a sad state. Go play age of empires if you cant be bothered with more than selecting all your units and blindly charging. Fuck you and fuck players like you for breaking something with so much potential and having the gaul to act like your shitty tactics should have any inpact on the balance of the game.
  • #130
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    > @Felinewolfie said:
    > @Pastulio said:
    > And +1 to pioneers, so they could be like sappers.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ===========
    > They'd still need the +150 manpower +35 Fuel upgrade up-cost.
    > Also Pioneers would need to come around T2 Tech Time. No more early Pios.
    > Also Pios would need to lose their current superior sight radius, as well as 0 pop MG Bunkers
    > And...
    >
    > You just want all the pros, without any of the cons, admit it

    God damn you are a dense, biased slab of meat arnt you? T4. AT T4 as in a full tech. Nobody as asking that they be able to carry AT, or have the same target size as panzer grens, or that they get a huge reinforcement reduction with vet. And brit teching has sappers out in no time at all (frequently like the 4th unit built) so stfu with your woe is me. There is no reason for one of the worst units in the entire game to not at least get a little bit more durable at FULL TECH aside from players like you who likley struggle against easy bots bitching and moaning instead of learning how to play the game properly
  • #131
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited March 2018

    @Felinewolfie said:

    @Pastulio said:
    And +1 to pioneers, so they could be like sappers.

    ===========
    They'd still need the +150 manpower +35 Fuel upgrade up-cost.
    Also Pioneers would need to come around T2 Tech Time. No more early Pios.
    Also Pios would need to lose their current superior sight radius, as well as 0 pop MG Bunkers
    And...

    You just want all the pros, without any of the cons, admit it.

    Not sure why the idea of a late game tech bringing about a five man pioneer squad triggered this guy, your not going to see roving hordes of pios at the 15 minute mark sweeping the map, instead OST would have a durable unit to cap, and finally be able to keep up with repairing their vehicles in the late game.

    I think my favourite part hidden amongst the page of word vomit is definitely:

    @Felinewolfie said:
    You people all talk about Grenadier scaling and it being in danger of being wiped...
    What about SturmTiger wiping 4x full 5x man vet 3 double BAR USF Riflemen in a single shot?

    That being a very logical point, what with Sturmtigers being a constant fixture in all game modes, the rate at which rifle blobs are getting wiped by 38cm rockets is getting beyond ridiculous. I feel most people on these forums have lost sight of where the real balance problems are at.

  • #132
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268

    @Felinewolfie said:
    I know, it'd be nice and fun to have the IS upgrades on the Grenadier. But you'd have to deal with the rest of their situation, too. Not just cherry-pick.

    I don't want brit upgrades for grens.... I was literally making this exact argument (the part in bold) in response to someone else who wanted to give grens some of the British upgrades, so you are misreading me completely.

    Also you aren't supposed to post that much in succession, and it's a little ridiculous to quote a whole bunch of people more than a month after they posted their comments.....

  • #133
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,032

    Told ya'll that an Ost buff would be terrifying

  • #134
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268

    @Felinewolfie said:
    And if Gren ought to scale, why shouldn't Conscripts as well, assuming Soviet decided to forgo Penals and
    Maxims, but went full Conscripts?

    Opening with 3-4 straight cons is not uncommon at all now. In fact it might be more viable to open with 4 straight cons than 4 of any other mainline infantry. They are tied for cheapest and they offer phenomenal anti-garrison very early as long as you grab mollys, which not getting is almost inexcusable for 80mp and 15 fu.

    Not to mention, conscripts always have scaled well, even pre-patch. Having dog**** accuracy prior to vet 2 was their problem before, and that has been addressed.

  • #135
    1 year ago
    > @SkysTheLimit said:
    > Opening with 3-4 straight cons is not uncommon at all now. In fact it might be more viable to open with 4 straight cons than 4 of any other mainline infantry. They are tied for cheapest and they offer phenomenal anti-garrison very early as long as you grab mollys, which not getting is almost inexcusable for 80mp and 15 fu.
    >
    > Not to mention, conscripts always have scaled well, even pre-patch. Having dog**** accuracy prior to vet 2 was their problem before, and that has been addressed.

    Cons are solid now indeed, with good acc early on wich gives them consistant damage output. Instead of praying to rngesus for a hit with every shot. With vet and cheaper tech now their mollies are actualy usefull. cons get to throw it before the enemy wipes half the squad.
    Now they are worth their 240 mp and their side tech. In the past they were worth 220 mp tops. molly tech was a complete waste most of the time.

    Imo cons did not scalle wel at all.
    There was a reason most people spammed penals or maxims back then. cons just did not deliver for their cost. they required more micro then any other main inf to be as effective as the rest. and then one had to deal with their rng natured combat preformance.
    In the late game the got decent. but the rest got even better with non doc upgrades simaler vet. so cons could still not add any real contribution to fight other infantry unless blobbed. their only use was snaring at this point.
  • #136
    1 year ago
    FelinewolfieFelinewol… Posts: 668
    edited March 2018

    ** Ah, I missed the T4 part. / Spearhead has a similar buff for Infantry Soviets at T4, I believe. Something about
    "guards" and how then all infantry would gain +25% veterancy, or something (late game enhancement to infantry).
    - In that context, it might be interesting to grand Grens a +1 man to their squad, yea.

    ** Aye. I mostly think of conscripts as lower than sheit. Used to play with them, but ended up much preferring
    penals or maxims, or shocks, or even guards. Anything but Conscripts. They were good at reinforceing others,
    making sandbags, grabbing fallen support weapons, and perhaps snaring (Prefer mines for that).

    I'll have to try them again (cons) but my point was how do you get cons to be at LEAST decent, without
    needing them to have 3 conscript-devoted bulletins and a conscript-specialized commander?

    I am talking without the PPSH upgrade, here. Pure Bolt Action.

    They now can only pick up 1 weapon upgrade (ie: LMG42). More like a sidegrade than an upgrade if you ask me.
    (The patch).

    I very very very much would like if cons could be viable and not forced to go Penals or Maxim.

    And start-of-the-game 5x men Grenadiers works against that and disrupts balance to the extreme.
    I misunderstood? My apologies.

    Would it need a ... 150 manpower, 35 fuel cost at T4 to achieve this, or would it be a native upgrade
    aka the LMG42/Panzerfaust upgrade?

    Honestly, I'd love if all early units remained viable late-game. I like what they did with a number of units.
    I wish scout car still had that medipack drop (sov). I wish Universal Carrier could still cap flags (Was it vet 3?)
    The stealthy Kubelwagen was nice, too :)

    PS : I don't have an issue with SturmTiger nuking multiple
    Squads of Riflemen in a single shot. I think the game has lost
    too many of it's anti-blobbing mechanics overall to begin with.
    I said that as a comparison with Germans bitching continually
    about their squads being wiped while I easily get my Sov dual snipers
    wiped by rifle Grenade as soon as I look away :)

    The Sov Sticky satchel wiping multiple squads of Penals is
    glorious as well. I don't bitch about that.

  • #137
    1 year ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,991

    @Felinewolfie said:
    Would it need a ... 150 manpower, 35 fuel cost at T4 to achieve this, or would it be a native upgrade
    aka the LMG42/Panzerfaust upgrade?

    Either way, fucking sold. The ability to upgrade Grens to 5 men squads would be worth a pretty penny to me at least.

  • #138
    1 year ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited March 2018

    @Felinewolfie said:

    I easily get my Sov dual snipers
    wiped by rifle Grenade as soon as I look away :)

    Your fault there. SU snipers are nearly unkillable on open maps due to how useless antisniper weapons are for the axis. (222, kubel). Complaining about Sturmtiger while attack moving double snipers which is the most op Soviet build right now makes u a massive hypocrite. Snipers easily outrange rifle grenades, bunching up both of them, and not paying attention to the rifle grenade animation means your sniper micro needs serious improvement. I'm pretty sure you attack move snipers since you allowed them to get in range of rifle grenades. If the map is not a long range map, don't use snipers. Simple as that.

    The Sov Sticky satchel wiping multiple squads of Penals is
    glorious as well. I don't bitch about that.

    More exaggeration from you. "Multiple squads"? The blast radius on stickies isn't that impressive. It's still your fault that you didn't move out of the way after throwing the satchel. The vehicle may suicide into your squad, and its your responsibility to pay attention if that happens. You can't just claim victory right after sticking the satchel on the vehicle. You need to pay attention until it explodes.

    And if you think that 5 man pios is so op, you're sorely mistaken as usual. Sappers had for a long time 0.8 RA while pios have a 1 RA. I believe the balance team nerfed sappers to 0.9 (correct me if i'm wrong). They still keep their vet 1 combat bonus which pios don't have and vet 3 RA bonus for sappers is also absent on pios. So a 5 man pio is still nowhere close to 5 man sappers. The biggest Brit problem is that the 5man upgrade comes too soon and allows Brits to transform from a defensive early game into an offensive one with basically no downside.

    In summary, you should really brush up on your CoH2 knowledge before accusing people of certain biases. As well, complaining about Sturmtigers, losing snipers to rifle nades and friendly fire stickies suggests that you should spend more time practicing instead of on the forums.

  • #139
    1 year ago

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    Your fault there. SU snipers are nearly unkillable on open maps due to how useless antisniper weapons are for the axis. (222, kubel). Complaining about Sturmtiger while attack moving double snipers which is the most op Soviet build right now makes u a massive hypocrite. Snipers easily outrange rifle grenades, bunching up both of them, and not paying attention to the rifle grenade animation means your sniper micro needs serious improvement. I'm pretty sure you attack move snipers since you allowed them to get in range of rifle grenades. If the map is not a long range map, don't use snipers. Simple as that.

    • I didn't COMPLAIN about Sturmtigers wiping multiple Rifle Squads. I said, or meant "This happens, and you don't
      see me bitching.

    • I didn't COMPLAIN about dual snipers being wiped by a rifle grenade. I was saying if you want to talk about
      squishy, these are incredibly squishy in relation to a Gren Squad.

      I completely, totally, absolutely agree it is entirely my fault. That's my point, actually.

    More exaggeration from you. "Multiple squads"? The blast radius on stickies isn't that impressive. It's still your fault that you didn't move out of the way after throwing the satchel. The vehicle may suicide into your squad, and its your responsibility to pay attention if that happens. You can't just claim victory right after sticking the satchel on the vehicle. You need to pay attention until it explodes.

    • Again, I didn't complain about it. I'm saying the Satchel, which a lot of people complain about...
      Is very much a two edged sword. I don't think most Germans would appreciate if Americans could hit
      Rifle Grenades with a tennis racket, hitting it back to the Grenadier Squad, wiping it as well :)
    • Again, I absolutely totally completely agree. But my point was that Satchels aren't I-win weapons.
      They can bite back.

    And if you think that 5 man pios is so op, you're sorely mistaken as usual. Sappers had for a long time 0.8 RA while pios have a 1 RA. I believe the balance team nerfed sappers to 0.9 (correct me if i'm wrong). They still keep their vet 1 combat bonus which pios don't have and vet 3 RA bonus for sappers is also absent on pios. So a 5 man pio is still nowhere close to 5 man sappers. The biggest Brit problem is that the 5man upgrade comes too soon and allows Brits to transform from a defensive early game into an offensive one with basically no downside.

    • That, I don't know about. And my issue is more with 5 men Grenadiers.
      I recall when Pios would easily swarm and crush conscript squads, actually. True, it's been toned down,
      but I am still haunted by it :)

    • Though brits have minus when moving/out of cover, and they are still using Bolt Action Rifles which suck balls
      for assaulting. It'd be more of an issue if they had SAR (Semi Auto Rifles) like STG44, SVT40, G41, M1 Garand. That's
      a factor to consider. Bren have 0% firepower when moving.

    In summary, you should really brush up on your CoH2 knowledge before accusing people of certain biases. As well, complaining about Sturmtigers, losing snipers to rifle nades and friendly fire stickies suggests that you should spend more time practicing instead of on the forums.

    • My COH2 knowledge is actually quite good. You just misunderstood me completely.
      Except for Sapper/Pio vet bonuses. I'm a bit rusty on those, especially as I don't use brits much,
      and especially don't spam Sappers offensively.

    • I didn't complain about SturmTigers.

    • I didn't complain about snipers.
    • Friendly fire stickies are a fact. Most Germans deny they exist :)
    • I didn't complain about stickies. I said they were a double edged sword.

      You may judge me on what I am trying to say. Not what you think I am trying to say.

  • #140
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Im firmly against a 5th model for grens. It would be bad enough with the lmg42 (centralized DPS) let alone g43s or stun nades. They need some more durability but from a flavour and balance standpoint im against THAT.

    Pios as stated are a joke second only to the soviet "combat" "engineers" whom are incapable of combat and lack anything along the lines of battlefield engineering. So a 5th man for them solves 3 ost problems: squishy fishy capping in the late game, slow AF repairing in the same AND generally unattractive and underutilized battle phase teaching
  • #141
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,640

    Both modders and relic stated firmly that 5 man grens will never happen, so people can drop that idea.

    You think you need more men as ost, pick osttruppen.

  • #142
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    You shouldn't have to rely on Commanders to augment a faction for it to remain effective, we had that with the original iterations of the SOV design, and they have gone strength to strength since their core roster was improved to reduce their need to crutch on call-ins.

    5 man grens causes far too many balance issues and would only create further problems down the line, not too mention further homogenizing the factions and bringing OKW and OST even closer to being mirrors.

    Bumping up pios to a 5 man for the late game, takes the pressure of grens/p-grens to cap, that in conjuction with a similar vet rework to cons and grens would probably find themselves in a pretty good place in terms of the current meta.

  • #143
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    @Katitof relic was firmly against the pershing too so i dont want to take the chance
  • #144
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,640

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @Katitof relic was firmly against the pershing too so i dont want to take the chance

    I'd say there is a slight difference between adding beefed up med tank to med armor faction and completely changing infantry dynamics against 3 factions.

  • #145
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,032
    If you phrase it like that yeah. Release Pershing changed the armor dynamic between USF and everyone else though so there's not really a difference at all.
  • #146
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Look at any and all OKW changes for precedent on making massive changes that effect infantry combat againt 3 factions. Stranger things have happened.
  • #147
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,640

    Yeah, when the faction was overpowering and n00b friendly to the point of massively inflating your rank, which proved to be the case when volks lost shrecks and STILL were op af.

  • #148
    1 year ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited March 2018

    It isn't to have 5 grens, it is to remove the 5th for brits and remove double bar and brens (edit: and light vickers).

  • #149
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,640

    @Widerstreit said:
    It isn't to have 5 grens, it is to remove the 5th for brits and remove double bar and brens (edit: and light vickers).

    That in turn would lead to buffs of these weapons and massive nerf of axis sniper, leading to much, much more ammo for offmaps for ukf and usf as well as model sniping being even worse by BARs and brens, who at the moment are considerably weaker then axis counterparts.

  • #150
    1 year ago

    @Katitof Sure, I never said that we don't have to optimize some things after such a change. Brits could get a grenade-launcher ability with piats to bring them in line etc.

    There are many things to be redesign in my opinion. Last patch was more a bug-fix, it also shown us that sega+relic is willing to realize our plans.

    At least we should collect some new balancing ideas for the future and make together an intern balance-patch. So we don't get in hurry like last time.

  • #151
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,032

    @Katitof said:

    @Widerstreit said:
    It isn't to have 5 grens, it is to remove the 5th for brits and remove double bar and brens (edit: and light vickers).

    That in turn would lead to buffs of these weapons and massive nerf of axis sniper, leading to much, much more ammo for offmaps for ukf and usf as well as model sniping being even worse by BARs and brens, who at the moment are considerably weaker then axis counterparts.

    Not to say that I agree with Widersteit, but this is a non-sequitur. If you nerf something for being overpowered, you don't then buff it to balance out the nerf. That would defeat the entire purpose of nerfing things.

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