[All][Ost] Grenadier Scaling

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  • #152
    1 year ago

    @Lazarus That is the sense. ^^

  • #153
    1 year ago

    @Lazarus said:

    @Katitof said:

    @Widerstreit said:
    It isn't to have 5 grens, it is to remove the 5th for brits and remove double bar and brens (edit: and light vickers).

    That in turn would lead to buffs of these weapons and massive nerf of axis sniper, leading to much, much more ammo for offmaps for ukf and usf as well as model sniping being even worse by BARs and brens, who at the moment are considerably weaker then axis counterparts.

    Not to say that I agree with Widersteit, but this is a non-sequitur. If you nerf something for being overpowered, you don't then buff it to balance out the nerf. That would defeat the entire purpose of nerfing things.

    This is exactly what happens to Ost too often. The Ostwind, for example, got buffed in one way nerfed substantially in another way which effectively cancelled out the buffs. The ostwind is still as unpopular as before.

  • #154
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited March 2018

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    Imo cons did not scalle wel at all.
    There was a reason most people spammed penals or maxims back then. cons just did not deliver for their cost. they required more micro then any other main inf to be as effective as the rest. and then one had to deal with their rng natured combat preformance.

    The reason was cause of their vanilla performance being that much better than cons. Cons used to get -40% recieved accuracy at vet 3, and still get +40% accuracy at vet 2. If you could get them to vet 3 they were solid, the problem was getting them there.

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    The Ostwind, for example, got buffed in one way nerfed substantially in another way which effectively cancelled out the buffs. The ostwind is still as unpopular as before.

    That is a massive exaggeration, it recieved more buffs than nerfs. Its AOE was buffed at mid and far, nerfed at close. If you think that cancels it out, than you still don't understand AOE distances, because the change made it much better. ISU HE shells got the same treatment, and now its more reliable.

    Not to mention its also cheaper, got its pen buffed so it can actually fight off lights instead of getting bounced by the t70 regularly, and the terrain change is huge. The scatter "nerf" is insignificant compared to the fact that you no longer have 2-3 shots just hitting ground well in front of the target.

  • #155
    1 year ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited March 2018

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    The Ostwind, for example, got buffed in one way nerfed substantially in another way which effectively cancelled out the buffs. The ostwind is still as unpopular as before.

    That is a massive exaggeration, it recieved more buffs than nerfs. Its AOE was buffed at mid and far, nerfed at close. If you think that cancels it out, than you still don't understand AOE distances, because the change made it much better. ISU HE shells got the same treatment, and now its more reliable.

    Not to mention its also cheaper, got its pen buffed so it can actually fight off lights instead of getting bounced by the t70 regularly, and the terrain change is huge. The scatter "nerf" is insignificant compared to the fact that you no longer have 2-3 shots just hitting ground well in front of the target.

    You completely missed the point. The accuracy of the Ostwind at max range is nearly non-existant which makes the AoE buff basically pointless at long range. So even when the shells aren't colliding with terrain, they are outright missing the target. The Ostwind is only better at mid and close range. But Ost players want a better long range performance as the Ostwind can't afford to get close or even midrange as snares and other handheld at have zero problems penning and not to mention all other sources of at. The end result is that the max range performance of the Ostwind is actually worse than before due to the massive accuracy nerfs. Has anyone noticed much of an increase in Ostwind usage. Because I certainly didn't. The replays that have been casted of top level players show similar results.

    The centaur, after the speed buff didn't get any nerfs to it and is now again, completely overshadowing the ostwinds performance. And it has a noticeable chance to bounce p4 shots. The centaur is still the more reliable AI tank as it doesn't rely on AoE so even if the infantry isn't not bunched up, it still does good damage.

  • #156
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,020
    Grenadier thread guys, bring it back
  • #157
    1 year ago

    @Lazarus said:

    @Katitof said:

    @Widerstreit said:
    It isn't to have 5 grens, it is to remove the 5th for brits and remove double bar and brens (edit: and light vickers).

    That in turn would lead to buffs of these weapons and massive nerf of axis sniper, leading to much, much more ammo for offmaps for ukf and usf as well as model sniping being even worse by BARs and brens, who at the moment are considerably weaker then axis counterparts.

    Not to say that I agree with Widersteit, but this is a non-sequitur. If you nerf something for being overpowered, you don't then buff it to balance out the nerf. That would defeat the entire purpose of nerfing things.

    Germans screamed OP at T34 having ram that disabled Tiger.
    T34 then did 80 dmg with it's gun while Pz4 did 160 dmg with it's gun.

    Result : T34 were ONLY made to ram, not as 'tanks'. Main tank was SU85

    Relic weakened the T34 ram but buffed it's dmg to 160.

    Result: Germans said T34 was now too powerful for it's price.

    Germans want 5x member squads with 2x LMG42s (and PanzerFaust) (and RifleGrenade)
    Germans want USF, UKF and SOV to have 4x member squads with only 1 upgrade.

    Result: Relic reduced Conscript addon weapon to only 1, but buffed tohit.
    Germans scream OP.

    Future: Relic buff BAR and Bren to 2x firepower (making it homogeneous to German's)
    (Also now has no fuel side-cost) Also UKF gets 5th man for free, USF gets 6 men, SOV
    gets 7 men squads. Grenadiers get 5 men, Volksgrenadier get 6 men.

    German scream OP. (Allies now get way more efficiency for munitions, also get tanks sooner).

    =======
    T34 cost 100 fuel but was T3.

    Germans scream OP, cuz T34 come to soon (at 160 dmg/hit)

    Solution : Make it T4.

    Relic make T34 go to T4, put SU76 in T3. T34 now 80 fuel.

    Germans scream OP. SU76 too strong. T34 too cheap

    Only thing that will EVER satisfy Axis players is if all allied factions are reduced to 1 man engineer squads
    with no mines, no barb wire, and no infantry Mg or tanks. No AT guns, nothing that can actually HURT germans.
    And Germans are buffed to 6x man squads with 6x LMG42 and 6x Panzershreks that can be put away and
    total immunity to suppression (also, plz, remove Allied HQ start MG bunkers)

    Remove

    • Sov Engineer cheap mine and demo charge and ability to snipe with bolt rifles
    • Conscripts are too op. Also remove molotov and PPSH and flare mine. And 6x AT grenade throw and AT rifle.
    • Penals too strong. Please remove. Also remove satchel. Satchel OP
    • remove Scout car, it kills Kubel.Also clown car OP
    • Remove Sov dual sniper, they op, with their 2x STV-40 scoped rifles and SturmTiger grenades.
      (their sprint removed, their being in scout car removed, their health nerfed. Their stealth nerfed)
      Losing one of their 2 sniper rifles (now 1 sniper, 1 observer)(Worst stealth of any sniper) STILL OP?!?!?!!

    • Remove SOV 120mm mortar, it OP

    • Remove Zis-3 it can barrage
    • Remove SOV Halftrack, because, can 2x squads fight from within, also 4x quad .50
    • Remove T70 because op
    • Remove SU76 because OP. Plus it can barrage
    • Remove T34, it too cheap, too efficient.
    • Remove SU85 it hurt my king tiger and should be 14 pop and cost more than Jackson
    • Remove T34/85 they too strong
    • Remove ISU152, IS2 they wiped my squad
    • Remove Katyusha it counter my blob

      I have seen ALL of those suggested in the forums. Not joking.

    Guards OP. shock Troops OP.

    Same for every single USF and british thing.
    British are cancer.
    USF Jackson is cancer.
    USF squads are OP
    USF grenade is OP
    USF Callioppe is OP

    Katitof once said the worst thing that ever happened to this game was Relic listening to griefers.

    I have NEVER seen as much griefing as I have in this game.

  • #158
    1 year ago

    @Felinewolfie said:

    I have NEVER seen as much griefing as I have in this game.

    Because you contribute to most of the grieving on this forum by grossly exaggerating basically every unit. Of course you don't see the grieving. Show us where people wanted allies to have 4man squad. I've never heard of that. I have heard of single upgrades, nerfs to RA and other stuff, but you're going over the top.

  • #159
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,602

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @Felinewolfie said:

    I have NEVER seen as much griefing as I have in this game.


    Show us where people wanted allies to have 4man squad. I've never heard of that.

    Then you probably never opened a singular thread about brits.

  • #160
    1 year ago

    @Katitof said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @Felinewolfie said:

    I have NEVER seen as much griefing as I have in this game.


    Show us where people wanted allies to have 4man squad. I've never heard of that.

    Then you probably never opened a singular thread about brits.

    I haven't seen anyone against 5man sections. They're only against the timing of the upgrade.

  • #161
    1 year ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,020
    edited March 2018
    @Felinewolfie cool story bro. How does that have anything to do with what I said?

    @Katitof don't be obtuse. Allies includes USF and Sov. So who says they need 4 man squads, apart from the imaginary "screaming Germans"
  • #162
    1 year ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    Lets get back to topic.

    Grens and PGren are in the worst place right now coz of sniper meta.
    4 man squad make it vulnerable to snipers.
    2 or more snipers literally gonna win any engagement with just engineer as a spotter.
    That is the main weakness of Grens and Pgrens.

    Sniper meta is killing or wiping squads with in 2 seconds.
    Combined with Guards and penal spam, you literally wont kill a single model vs soviets,
    Plus 120mm 1 hit squad wipe.
    222 is useless with this combo.
    Cant win any games if you can't even get out your base, that's the main reason wechma need 5th man upgrade.

  • #163
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @Xloss said:
    Lets get back to topic.

    Grens and PGren are in the worst place right now coz of sniper meta.
    4 man squad make it vulnerable to snipers.
    2 or more snipers literally gonna win any engagement with just engineer as a spotter.
    That is the main weakness of Grens and Pgrens.

    I understand that dual SOV snipers is a massive struggle in the current meta, but that is not due to a weakness in the OST infantry, its mainly the problem with the lack of effective counter strategies short of rushing an Ostwind and going balls to the wall for them.

    The issue is that the 222, who in previous metas was the go to counter, is really quite underwhelming currently, and the OST sniper has obviously lost his "double tap" incediary round combo. I can't count the number of times recently in which ive chased down a sniper squad across close to half the map with a 222 and failed to secure the kill. A slight adjustment to its mg would be enough to guarantee its damage and to reassert some actual pressure on players that opt for dual snipers.

  • #164
    1 year ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235
    edited March 2018

    @Farra13 said:

    @Xloss said:
    Lets get back to topic.

    Grens and PGren are in the worst place right now coz of sniper meta.
    4 man squad make it vulnerable to snipers.
    2 or more snipers literally gonna win any engagement with just engineer as a spotter.
    That is the main weakness of Grens and Pgrens.

    I understand that dual SOV snipers is a massive struggle in the current meta, but that is not due to a weakness in the OST infantry, its mainly the problem with the lack of effective counter strategies short of rushing an Ostwind and going balls to the wall for them.

    The issue is that the 222, who in previous metas was the go to counter, is really quite underwhelming currently, and the OST sniper has obviously lost his "double tap" incediary round combo. I can't count the number of times recently in which ive chased down a sniper squad across close to half the map with a 222 and failed to secure the kill. A slight adjustment to its mg would be enough to guarantee its damage and to reassert some actual pressure on players that opt for dual snipers.

    Well i did not say that Grens and PGrens are weak. They can combat any unit in certain situation,
    But the sniper spam just too strong coz it will only take 2 seconds to literally wipe a squad coz of the model count 4.
    Wechma can't do anything coz model drops like flies in a near instant.
    You can't manuver, even if you do. You lost a squad or retreat it already so save it with out even starting to fire a single bullet.

    Let us say i got 1 mortar, 1MG, 4 grens vs 2 sniper, 2 penals, 1 eng
    Who will win?

    Even having a lot of MP cost and more troops wechma will loose in this situation.

    Gun fight last in minutes but with snipers it will take only seconds which Wechma cannot turn it around using 222.

    Just as you said 222 just suck.
    It dies fast cant even kill a single model from its 1-3 burts.

  • #165
    1 year ago
    FelinewolfieFelinewol… Posts: 668
    edited March 2018

    @Farra13 said:

    @Xloss said:
    Lets get back to topic.

    Grens and PGren are in the worst place right now coz of sniper meta.
    4 man squad make it vulnerable to snipers.
    2 or more snipers literally gonna win any engagement with just engineer as a spotter.
    That is the main weakness of Grens and Pgrens.

    I understand that dual SOV snipers is a massive struggle in the current meta, but that is not due to a weakness in the OST infantry, its mainly the problem with the lack of effective counter strategies short of rushing an Ostwind and going balls to the wall for them.

    The issue is that the 222, who in previous metas was the go to counter, is really quite underwhelming currently, and the OST sniper has obviously lost his "double tap" incediary round combo. I can't count the number of times recently in which ive chased down a sniper squad across close to half the map with a 222 and failed to secure the kill. A slight adjustment to its mg would be enough to guarantee its damage and to reassert some actual pressure on players that opt for dual snipers.

    ======================
    - Sov Sniper slow ROF vs small squads.
    - German Sniper high ROF + Explosive stun shot vs large squads.
    Note: German Sniper explosive shot can suppress multiple squads in one shot.

    If you dislike this how about...

    • Sov Sniper high ROF + Explosive stun shot, good stealth, 1 man.
    • German Sniper copy paste of above.

    Both German and allied infantry squads have 5x men and all
    have bolt action rifles only with ONE LMG upgrade.

    Give early MG to USF and SOV (T0)
    And remove fuel side upgrades to allied infantry.

    Soviet snipers have lower ROF than German sniper.

    • Lost dual sniper rifle
    • Lost Sprint
    • Lost ~25% of their health per model
    • Lost Riding Clown Car.
    • Also 222 got buff vs them, but that's everyone.

    And they are still OP?

    Most of your proposals are to reduce ROF even further
    (usually sniper dies first, sniper rifle not transfered)
    (That's a ROF reduction too)

    or to increase size of German Squads.
    (while keeping the ROF low)(Event though squads would
    not be the same size as that of American Squads)

    I don't see how you can justify that.

    Problem : Assymetrical Balance.
    Mirror stat factions. Problem solved.

    Can you propose something else that is not either
    Nerfing Allies, or Buffing Germans?

  • #166
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @Felinewolfie I did not say, have not called for, and do not want to change any of the snipers in their current state. Re-read what I wrote, and you will find I am stating a common opinion, that OST in the current meta struggles alot versus dual SOV snipers, and that is down to a lack of effective early counters.

    All I added was that the mg on the 222 needs a tweak to makeit more reliable at dealing damage, so if i get on top of the snipers and chase, they aren't going to sprint half the map with my autocannon ripping up all the scenery around them on their route.

    @Felinewolfie said:

    And they are still OP?

    Most of your proposals are to reduce ROF even further
    (usually sniper dies first, sniper rifle not transfered)
    (That's a ROF reduction too)

    I did not say they are OP......
    Nor did I call for any changes to them, so I have no idea where you got idea that I proposed to reduce their ROF.

    or to increase size of German Squads.
    (while keeping the ROF low)(Event though squads would
    I don't see how you can justify that.

    Nope, didn't advocate that either, your literally making things up.

    Can you propose something else that is not either
    Nerfing Allies, or Buffing Germans?

    So your idea is to just leave everything as it is? Game is as balanced as its ever going to be?

    Perhaps, and I understand this must be hard for you, you could try actually playing the axis factions. It would probably do you a world of good in terms of game knowledge, and it might even balance out some of your horrendous bias. Especially if it stops you filling the forum with near incoherent rambling nonsense about those evil "german" players ruining the entire game balance with their insane requests.

  • #167
    1 year ago

    @Felinewolfie said:

    • Also 222 got buff vs them, but that's everyone.

    In what way did the 222 get a buff vs snipers or scout cars? What are you even talking about? Get your facts straight. Most players have already agreed that the problem with SU snipers isn't the sniper itself but the lack of DPS from 222/kubel vs snipers. The solution was already addressed in a sniper thread a month ago to simply increase accuracy/DPS of the axis lights vs SU snipers. Now it's all up to the balance team to change them, IF they change them.

  • #168
    1 year ago

    @Farra13 said:

    Perhaps, and I understand this must be hard for you, you could try actually playing the axis factions. It would probably do you a world of good in terms of game knowledge, and it might even balance out some of your horrendous bias. Especially if it stops you filling the forum with near incoherent rambling nonsense about those evil "german" players ruining the entire game balance with their insane requests.

    Spot on. It's clear that everyone can agree that after all the nonsense that Felinewolf has posted in this thread warrants that he spend much more time actually playing all factions before coming back to address his problems regarding balance.

  • #169
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,817
    Right... So how bout them squishy grens?
  • #170
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    To be fair, regarding those squishy grens, if OST is considered the gold-standard of balance, changes would then be kept to the minimum.

    I think a similar vet rework to what the concripts recieved would be the best place to start with grens. Splitting up their RA bonuses, if possible a small amont of explosive resistance. Then just watch thier performance and adjust other units to baalnce out their performance for cost against said grens.

  • #171
    1 year ago
    ImperialDaneImperialD… Posts: 3,080 mod

    Alright, stick to the topic gentlemen, which is Grenadiers and them scaling not frightfully well.

  • #172
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited March 2018

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    You completely missed the point. The accuracy of the Ostwind at max range is nearly non-existant which makes the AoE buff basically pointless at long range.

    So I was correct that you still don't understand how AOE distances work. Far AOE is the damage multiplier for the outer radius of the explosion at ALL RANGES. But I will go back to grens before I drag us further off topic

    The veterancy rework seems to be damn-near consensus on this forum, and the conscript changes we had recently seem like a good template even though the squads themselves are so different. Tommies are the only other mainline besides Grens who's RA is not split between 2 levels, but there starting target size is about 13% smaller by default.

  • #173
    1 year ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    While i do to some extent that a small squad of 4 should have some resistant to Mortar squad wipe. Seen too much 1 hit full HP squad with mortars by the 120mm.
    But this really can't fix the sniper meta. 2 snipers literaly take gren and pgren out of commision

  • #174
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,817
    > @Xloss said:
    > While i do to some extent that a small squad of 4 should have some resistant to Mortar squad wipe. Seen too much 1 hit full HP squad with mortars by the 120mm.
    > But this really can't fix the sniper meta. 2 snipers literaly take gren and pgren out of commision

    I think the problem there is that its SO efficient to get 2 snipers vs ost.

    My proposal for them would be to increase their cost BUT also redistribute their health

    Simething like 400-420mp per sniper squad making them less spamable AND give 1 model 82 health (same as other snipers) and the other 46 health.

    What this means is the sniper is now damn expensive to get multiple (2 snipers is more than 3 gren squads) but as a counter balance are unable to be randomly wiped by bad RNG (same as other snipers) HOWEVER the second model is now squishier making it more likley to drop meaning more likley to cause bleed if caught out of position (or chased by something)

    Over reliance would result in heavy bleed, the initial cost would push players towards conscript support over penal support or suffer massively for field control.
  • #175
    1 year ago
    ImperialDaneImperialD… Posts: 3,080 mod

    ahem Grenadier scaling. Not ostwinds, or snipers or whatever. Stick to the topic.

  • #176
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,817
    edited March 2018

    @ImperialDane said:
    ahem Grenadier scaling. Not ostwinds, or snipers or whatever. Stick to the topic.

    sniper is plenty relevant to gren scaling. they could have 640 health per model as a means to prevent getting rifle blobbed down and survive mortar wipes but it wouldnt do dick all vs double sniper meta except reinforce it.

    it would be like complaining about the p4 not having enough armour and disallowing talk about the Zis

  • #177
    1 year ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    The only fix i see for gren and Pgrens are.

    1. RA and ACC are distributed in all vet levels. (Does not really change anything just the arrangement of vet bonus)
      Make them relevant even newly made squad in late game.

    2. Additional Model and Cost (prevent dual sniper and mortar spam wiping them out).

    Assault Gren sucks even having 5 models in a squad so why not emplement them on pgre and grens?
    they don't really post treat in live verson

  • #179
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited March 2018

    @Lazarus said:
    So not only do we have cons as a living breathing test case that splitting rec acc to vet 0 helps mainline infantry, we also have PGrens as a pre-existing test case demonstrating that the scaling problem for Ostheers infantry are also solved by split rec acc.

    What's odd is how we're at a stage where Riflemen, Volks, and Conscripts all have 2 layers of RA buffs, while Grens and tommies are left at 1. Cons needed it given their horribly bad starting RA, meanwhile Tommies have such good starting RA that they can survive with just 1 vet buff (even if you choose not to get 5men upgrade til much later).

    Grens are in a no-man's-land where they have okay starting RA but need to get max vet to make it better at all, on top pf only having 1 upgrade available which does nothing to their defense.

    If we're trying to think of other things besides vet splitting, I still think their own version of hit the dirt for their vet 1 ability would make sense, since they are one of the more stationary squads to begin with.

    @Xloss said:
    Assault Gren sucks even having 5 models in a squad so why not emplement them on pgre and grens?

    Shocks have 1.5 armor, why don't Guards? Because the weapons they carry are vastly different.

  • #180
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,817
    Heh guards with armour... Now that would really be something wouldnt it....
  • #181
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,602

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Heh guards with armour... Now that would really be something wouldnt it....

    Assault guards, crying somewhere in a bush.

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