[All][Ost] Grenadier Scaling

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  • #182
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    > @Katitof said:
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > Heh guards with armour... Now that would really be something wouldnt it....
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Assault guards, crying somewhere in a bush.

    Do they have armour? Hmmm. Anyways, was thinkin long ranged infantry with armour, 6 man long ranged infantry with armour...
  • #183
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,640
    edited March 2018

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > @Katitof said:
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > Heh guards with armour... Now that would really be something wouldnt it....
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Assault guards, crying somewhere in a bush.

    Do they have armour? Hmmm. Anyways, was thinkin long ranged infantry with armour, 6 man long ranged infantry with armour...

    They do not and neither do they have any RA.
    They are basically expensive penals with ppsh and different scaling.

    Also, I have specifically said ASSAULT GUARDS.
    You know, the CQC guard squad no one ever uses because of how terribad they are due to squishiness.

  • #184
    1 year ago

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > @Xloss said:
    > While i do to some extent that a small squad of 4 should have some resistant to Mortar squad wipe. Seen too much 1 hit full HP squad with mortars by the 120mm.
    > But this really can't fix the sniper meta. 2 snipers literaly take gren and pgren out of commision

    I think the problem there is that its SO efficient to get 2 snipers vs ost.

    My proposal for them would be to increase their cost BUT also redistribute their health

    Simething like 400-420mp per sniper squad making them less spamable AND give 1 model 82 health (same as other snipers) and the other 46 health.

    What this means is the sniper is now damn expensive to get multiple (2 snipers is more than 3 gren squads) but as a counter balance are unable to be randomly wiped by bad RNG (same as other snipers) HOWEVER the second model is now squishier making it more likley to drop meaning more likley to cause bleed if caught out of position (or chased by something)

    Over reliance would result in heavy bleed, the initial cost would push players towards conscript support over penal support or suffer massively for field control.

    =================
    - Fine, but SOV sniper gets 2x SVT40 sniper rifles, then.
    - It's already less health, less stealth, less ROF and slower aim than Wehr Sniper. And lost going into scout cards,
    and lost it's sprinting. It was MEANT to be more survivable. But if you insist on yet ANOTHER nerf, then give it it's
    2nd sniper rifle, and dont' fix the 222's anti sniper ability (which is on 20mm, rather than on MG which is 0.75 vs
    snipers).

    There, fixed, now kills gren squads twice as fast :)

    Originally, the game was 3 members per MG42, OST Mortar, PAK team. So that's YET another nerf to sov team.
    - ! Oh, I just read your proposal. Lol. Soviets don't have in-field healing, so they'd bleed even more. 46 health
    sniper? OMG. / Why dont' you let sov sniper cost 360, but be 100% like Wehr sniper? With exp bullets and SVT40
    sniper rifle?

    If it's 100% the same as a Wehr sniper (82 health, improved stealth, explosive bullets and Semi auto sniper)
    then it can't be op if it's the exact same as soviet sniper, right?

    BTW. Skillfull soviet sniper could then double headshot wehr sniper, which would actually make it even
    harder to countersnipe (I'm talking 1 sniper model who double taps the sniper rifle using the explosive
    bullet ability).

    I have no problem double shooting the sov sniper using the wehr sniper. I can't believe you guys need
    MORE nerfs to sov sniper.

    Esp when it's not Sov sniper that's the problem.
    The problem is the 222 who has the wrong buffs. Just remove the buff on the 20mm and apply it to the MG.
    Problem solved (1.5 rather than 0.75)

  • #185
    1 year ago

    @Lazarus said:
    PGrens used to be flaming garbage themselves, but... I forget if it was the Dec patch or the one before - they got the split rec acc treatment cons got, which funnily enough completely solved their garbage performance against RM and Tommies and allowed them to begin scaling as actually competitive infantry. So not only do we have cons as a living breathing test case that splitting rec acc to vet 0 helps mainline infantry, we also have PGrens as a pre-existing test case demonstrating that the scaling problem for Ostheers infantry are also solved by split rec acc.

    The first step forward is about as indisputable as the color of the sky, so I don't know what else there really is to say in this thread.

    I'd be okay with that. Better than 5x men squads with 5x LMG42 and 5x PzShreks.
    Actually a sensible approach, even.

  • #186
    1 year ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    @Felinewolfie said:

    @Lazarus said:
    PGrens used to be flaming garbage themselves, but... I forget if it was the Dec patch or the one before - they got the split rec acc treatment cons got, which funnily enough completely solved their garbage performance against RM and Tommies and allowed them to begin scaling as actually competitive infantry. So not only do we have cons as a living breathing test case that splitting rec acc to vet 0 helps mainline infantry, we also have PGrens as a pre-existing test case demonstrating that the scaling problem for Ostheers infantry are also solved by split rec acc.

    The first step forward is about as indisputable as the color of the sky, so I don't know what else there really is to say in this thread.

    I'd be okay with that. Better than 5x men squads with 5x LMG42 and 5x PzShreks.
    Actually a sensible approach, even.

    Your just being sarcastic mate. No body mentioned 5x LMG and 5x PzShreks.

    @Felinewolfie said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > @Xloss said:
    > While i do to some extent that a small squad of 4 should have some resistant to Mortar squad wipe. Seen too much 1 hit full HP squad with mortars by the 120mm.
    > But this really can't fix the sniper meta. 2 snipers literaly take gren and pgren out of commision

    I think the problem there is that its SO efficient to get 2 snipers vs ost.

    My proposal for them would be to increase their cost BUT also redistribute their health

    Simething like 400-420mp per sniper squad making them less spamable AND give 1 model 82 health (same as other snipers) and the other 46 health.

    What this means is the sniper is now damn expensive to get multiple (2 snipers is more than 3 gren squads) but as a counter balance are unable to be randomly wiped by bad RNG (same as other snipers) HOWEVER the second model is now squishier making it more likley to drop meaning more likley to cause bleed if caught out of position (or chased by something)

    Over reliance would result in heavy bleed, the initial cost would push players towards conscript support over penal support or suffer massively for field control.

    =================
    - Fine, but SOV sniper gets 2x SVT40 sniper rifles, then.
    - It's already less health, less stealth, less ROF and slower aim than Wehr Sniper. And lost going into scout cards,
    and lost it's sprinting. It was MEANT to be more survivable. But if you insist on yet ANOTHER nerf, then give it it's
    2nd sniper rifle, and dont' fix the 222's anti sniper ability (which is on 20mm, rather than on MG which is 0.75 vs
    snipers).

    There, fixed, now kills gren squads twice as fast :)

    Originally, the game was 3 members per MG42, OST Mortar, PAK team. So that's YET another nerf to sov team.
    - ! Oh, I just read your proposal. Lol. Soviets don't have in-field healing, so they'd bleed even more. 46 health
    sniper? OMG. / Why dont' you let sov sniper cost 360, but be 100% like Wehr sniper? With exp bullets and SVT40
    sniper rifle?

    If it's 100% the same as a Wehr sniper (82 health, improved stealth, explosive bullets and Semi auto sniper)
    then it can't be op if it's the exact same as soviet sniper, right?

    BTW. Skillfull soviet sniper could then double headshot wehr sniper, which would actually make it even
    harder to countersnipe (I'm talking 1 sniper model who double taps the sniper rifle using the explosive
    bullet ability).

    I have no problem double shooting the sov sniper using the wehr sniper. I can't believe you guys need
    MORE nerfs to sov sniper.

    Esp when it's not Sov sniper that's the problem.
    The problem is the 222 who has the wrong buffs. Just remove the buff on the 20mm and apply it to the MG.
    Problem solved (1.5 rather than 0.75)

    Grens and Pgren problem is they can't stay long on field to be effective coz of being 4 model which can be abused by dual sniper.
    While combating penal and cons will reduce their number adding the sniper combo will ensure squad wipe in seconds.

    Fixing 222 anti sniper capability can fix the problem with sniper.
    Also Distributing RA and ACC in vets will help them throughout the game.

  • #187
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    edited March 2018
    > @Felinewolfie said:
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > > @Xloss said:
    > > While i do to some extent that a small squad of 4 should have some resistant to Mortar squad wipe. Seen too much 1 hit full HP squad with mortars by the 120mm.
    > > But this really can't fix the sniper meta. 2 snipers literaly take gren and pgren out of commision
    >
    > I think the problem there is that its SO efficient to get 2 snipers vs ost.
    >
    > My proposal for them would be to increase their cost BUT also redistribute their health
    >
    > Simething like 400-420mp per sniper squad making them less spamable AND give 1 model 82 health (same as other snipers) and the other 46 health.
    >
    > What this means is the sniper is now damn expensive to get multiple (2 snipers is more than 3 gren squads) but as a counter balance are unable to be randomly wiped by bad RNG (same as other snipers) HOWEVER the second model is now squishier making it more likley to drop meaning more likley to cause bleed if caught out of position (or chased by something)
    >
    > Over reliance would result in heavy bleed, the initial cost would push players towards conscript support over penal support or suffer massively for field control.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > =================
    > - Fine, but SOV sniper gets 2x SVT40 sniper rifles, then.
    > - It's already less health, less stealth, less ROF and slower aim than Wehr Sniper. And lost going into scout cards,
    > and lost it's sprinting. It was MEANT to be more survivable. But if you insist on yet ANOTHER nerf, then give it it's
    > 2nd sniper rifle, and dont' fix the 222's anti sniper ability (which is on 20mm, rather than on MG which is 0.75 vs
    > snipers).
    >
    > There, fixed, now kills gren squads twice as fast :)
    >
    > Originally, the game was 3 members per MG42, OST Mortar, PAK team. So that's YET another nerf to sov team.
    > - ! Oh, I just read your proposal. Lol. Soviets don't have in-field healing, so they'd bleed even more. 46 health
    > sniper? OMG. / Why dont' you let sov sniper cost 360, but be 100% like Wehr sniper? With exp bullets and SVT40
    > sniper rifle?
    >
    > If it's 100% the same as a Wehr sniper (82 health, improved stealth, explosive bullets and Semi auto sniper)
    > then it can't be op if it's the exact same as soviet sniper, right?
    >
    > BTW. Skillfull soviet sniper could then double headshot wehr sniper, which would actually make it even
    > harder to countersnipe (I'm talking 1 sniper model who double taps the sniper rifle using the explosive
    > bullet ability).
    >
    > I have no problem double shooting the sov sniper using the wehr sniper. I can't believe you guys need
    > MORE nerfs to sov sniper.
    >
    > Esp when it's not Sov sniper that's the problem.
    > The problem is the 222 who has the wrong buffs. Just remove the buff on the 20mm and apply it to the MG.
    > Problem solved (1.5 rather than 0.75)

    Did you actually even read what i posted or..?

    It would have the SAME total health as ot does now (which is MORE than all other snipers)the change would NOT reduce its overall health and would remove the chance of it getting wiped by a stray mortar, arguably making it MORE durable, so no, it doesnt need double SVTs because it wouldnt be getting a durability nerf it would be getting a rebalance. It WOULD be more expensive, but seeing as it would be IMPOSSIBLE to lose it by accident i think thats more than fair.

    We cant try and treat it like other snipers because its not like them. Its like trying to fit the churchill into the price point and timing of a sherman- nerfing the ever living fuck out if its gun defeats the purpose of ots durability, reduce its durability and it loses any point at all.

    The sniper can survive and that is its biggest bonus, it can keep its vet if its sniped, it has double the targets to shoot at on retreat. Its more of a unit and needs more of a cost to keep balanced AND useful. Soviet doesnt need to lean on sniper cheese to have a chance so theres no reason to keep the sniper cheap as others without the drawbacks of others. Its a peacock, you gotta let it fly.
  • #188
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268

    Guys let's make threads about these other units. I would love to discuss them, but the mods have warned us a few times now about getting off topic.

  • #189
    1 year ago
    Grens need a vet overhaul simaler to what cons and before pgrenz got.

    Also the vet 3 rec acc for rifles and section need to go down. Their combination of hp/target size and firepower is just to high.

    For brits double equiping should be tied to or exclude bolster sections. Wich in turn should go to the last tier. Or divided between hammer or anvil. Brits can go 1 of the 2 not both this way.

    This i feel would go a long way to help grens esp later on.
  • #190
    1 year ago

    @Xloss said:
    Your just being sarcastic mate. No body mentioned 5x LMG and 5x PzShreks.

    *** THANK YOU *** For understanding that I speak Sarcasm. Sincere apologies.
    Judge me on what I am trying to say, not what I actually say :)

    I accuse most players here on wanting axis infantry to be both quantity and quality.
    Akin to wanting as many Panthers as allies have Shermans, T34s, but while keeping their
    innate superiority per unit.

    It's the same thing as Soviets wanting conscripts to be on-par with OstTruppen and PzGrenadiers.
    Turning Grenadiers into VolksGrenadiers would have to come with losing MG42s and MG Bunkers.
    Most fail to understand that Vickers + trench is meant to be British equiv to MG Bunker + MG Squad.

    It's so hard to discuss a unit without also discussing context and supporting units.
    They can't just be balanced one-on-one without going straight towards mirror-stat-factions.

    @Felinewolfie said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > @Xloss said:

    Grens and Pgren problem is they can't stay long on field to be effective coz of being 4 model which can be abused by dual sniper.
    While combating penal and cons will reduce their number adding the sniper combo will ensure squad wipe in seconds.

    Fixing 222 anti sniper capability can fix the problem with sniper.
    Also Distributing RA and ACC in vets will help them throughout the game.

    • COH1 Iron Cross Squads had 3 members which were even more vulnerable to COH1 4 pop snipers.
      Why wasn't it an issue then?

    • Making Grens and PzGrens into 5 men squads AND Allies into 1 upgrade 5x men squads just pushes
      towards mirror stat squads, giving them an extra model (up from 3 in original coh2) cannot be done while
      keeping their innate superior per model firepower. Or again, we're talking about 4 tigers vs 4 Stuarts.
      Yes, I apologize for incapacity to write in other than sarcastic rants, but I feel there is an issue. Do you see it?

      A) Give pzgren and gren an extra model but reduce dps per unit.
      B) Give allied 6-7 model squads (If balance is to be kept)
      C) I don't mind a little extra -RA to german squads, it'd be odd for them to easily fall like
      flies while being more experienced. I prefer that to +1 squad member which would create
      a cascade of rebalancing ultimately resulting in original situation coming right back
      (such as now soviet snipers can have higher ROF since squads are larger)(Also AOE being restored, mines, etc)

      If you go with German squads should just be 50% bigger (yes, my sarcasm again) without any other
      rebalancing, it is akin to saying Shermans should get +50% health and +50% dps, because balance.
      (but without German AT doing higher damage to go with it)

      Also, it favors the uber infantry death blob instead of going for the tank blob as the game is designed
      to do. Initial design was infantry are used to get fuel to get tanks. They are not the end-all of COH2.
      But many players WANT COh2 to be all about non-stop infantry play. Maybe it's just because I'm a tank
      lover and not an infantry lover. Do you see my point?

      (Conclusion : I prefer -RA to +1 squad size)

      • A lot of german weaponry does squad wipes in seconds. I can't find it in me to feel sympathy.
      • Also german squads have great reinforce and heal in the field capability.
  • #191
    1 year ago
    FelinewolfieFelinewol… Posts: 668
    edited March 2018

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > @Felinewolfie said:
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > > @Xloss said:
    > > While i do to some extent that a small squad of 4 should have some resistant to Mortar squad wipe. Seen too much 1 hit full HP squad with mortars by the 120mm.
    > > But this really can't fix the sniper meta. 2 snipers literaly take gren and pgren out of commision
    >
    > I think the problem there is that its SO efficient to get 2 snipers vs ost.
    >
    > My proposal for them would be to increase their cost BUT also redistribute their health
    >
    > Simething like 400-420mp per sniper squad making them less spamable AND give 1 model 82 health (same as other snipers) and the other 46 health.
    >
    > What this means is the sniper is now damn expensive to get multiple (2 snipers is more than 3 gren squads) but as a counter balance are unable to be randomly wiped by bad RNG (same as other snipers) HOWEVER the second model is now squishier making it more likley to drop meaning more likley to cause bleed if caught out of position (or chased by something)
    >
    > Over reliance would result in heavy bleed, the initial cost would push players towards conscript support over penal support or suffer massively for field control.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > =================
    > - Fine, but SOV sniper gets 2x SVT40 sniper rifles, then.
    > - It's already less health, less stealth, less ROF and slower aim than Wehr Sniper. And lost going into scout cards,
    > and lost it's sprinting. It was MEANT to be more survivable. But if you insist on yet ANOTHER nerf, then give it it's
    > 2nd sniper rifle, and dont' fix the 222's anti sniper ability (which is on 20mm, rather than on MG which is 0.75 vs
    > snipers).
    >
    > There, fixed, now kills gren squads twice as fast :)
    >
    > Originally, the game was 3 members per MG42, OST Mortar, PAK team. So that's YET another nerf to sov team.
    > - ! Oh, I just read your proposal. Lol. Soviets don't have in-field healing, so they'd bleed even more. 46 health
    > sniper? OMG. / Why dont' you let sov sniper cost 360, but be 100% like Wehr sniper? With exp bullets and SVT40
    > sniper rifle?
    >
    > If it's 100% the same as a Wehr sniper (82 health, improved stealth, explosive bullets and Semi auto sniper)
    > then it can't be op if it's the exact same as soviet sniper, right?
    >
    > BTW. Skillfull soviet sniper could then double headshot wehr sniper, which would actually make it even
    > harder to countersnipe (I'm talking 1 sniper model who double taps the sniper rifle using the explosive
    > bullet ability).
    >
    > I have no problem double shooting the sov sniper using the wehr sniper. I can't believe you guys need
    > MORE nerfs to sov sniper.
    >
    > Esp when it's not Sov sniper that's the problem.
    > The problem is the 222 who has the wrong buffs. Just remove the buff on the 20mm and apply it to the MG.
    > Problem solved (1.5 rather than 0.75)

    Did you actually even read what i posted or..?

    It would have the SAME total health as ot does now (which is MORE than all other snipers)the change would NOT reduce its overall health and would remove the chance of it getting wiped by a stray mortar, arguably making it MORE durable, so no, it doesnt need double SVTs because it wouldnt be getting a durability nerf it would be getting a rebalance. It WOULD be more expensive, but seeing as it would be IMPOSSIBLE to lose it by accident i think thats more than fair.

    We cant try and treat it like other snipers because its not like them. Its like trying to fit the churchill into the price point and timing of a sherman- nerfing the ever living fuck out if its gun defeats the purpose of ots durability, reduce its durability and it loses any point at all.

    The sniper can survive and that is its biggest bonus, it can keep its vet if its sniped, it has double the targets to shoot at on retreat. Its more of a unit and needs more of a cost to keep balanced AND useful. Soviet doesnt need to lean on sniper cheese to have a chance so theres no reason to keep the sniper cheap as others without the drawbacks of others. Its a peacock, you gotta let it fly.

    • Of course I read what you posted. And I don't like it.

    You basically said : (Apologies for my sarcastic rant-style) Let's make Grenadiers cost 280 manpower and PzGrenadiers
    cost 420 manpower, keeping them at 4 men per squad, but rebalancing their health to that of 1 per model, and 322 for
    the last remaining model. This actually would give the squad 3 more health than it currently has, think of it as a buff.
    No dps or ROF bonus is needed, as it is by itself a buff. It would guarantee that the squad can never be lost. It DOES
    merit to be more expensive for that. German Infantry is a peacock, they deserve to soar, to fly. Of course, the price
    for re-populating the squad would stay the same, or perhaps increase.

    This even works better for the Grenadier, as the LMG42 would be held by the last surviving member of the Squad.
    It would even seriously improve their dps-per-squad-per-pop ratio!

    To survive would be this german squad's biggest bonus. It can keep it's vet. So it's more of a unit thus and
    would merit MORE of a cost to keep it balanced AND useful. Germans don't need to lean on MG42 cheese
    to have a chance so there's no reason to keep Grenadiers cheap as others without the drawbacks of others.

    Now do you get my point?

    So adjust 221/222 vs snipers OR make Soviet Sniper into a Wehr clone.
    I can't wait to start insta killing of 2 wher snipers with no chance of countersnipe with 1 sov sniper with higher ROF.
    It's not OP because it's german stats! :)

    I think we understand each other, we're just on different sides of the table and are playing tug-of-war.
    You think I don't see your point, but I do. I just disagree with it.
    I know you don't see my point, you just want your faction to acquire advantage.
    Soviets get continual non-stop nerfs. Yet you still shout that allies are OP.
    How can sniper be OP if it has Wehr Sniper stats? :)

    SOV Snipers already have LOWEST health of ANY unit in-game on
    a per-model point of view. Their ROF is also way lower than wehr
    (and aim speed to boot and stealth and soviets don't have access
    to non-doctrinal in the field healing, as opposed to the Germans).
    They also can't ride halftracks, or sprint, or be reinforced by Cons.

    Sov snipers are fragile AND weak AND easiest to wipe.
    ... And you call for more nerfs to it? I disagree.

  • #192
    1 year ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,991
    edited March 2018

    @Felinewolfie said:

    • COH1 Iron Cross Squads had 3 members which were even more vulnerable to COH1 4 pop snipers.
      Why wasn't it an issue then?

    Because KCH took two shots from a sniper to die per model. That might be it. Also, bought vet, which means losses were much easier to replace.

    You should stop writing that much rubbish, especially when double, triple or quadruple+ posting. As should you work on that "sarcasm", as so far its pretty indistinguishable from a regular opinion.

    Now do you get my point?

    I have my doubts that anyone gets whatever misshapen doodle you try to sell off as a point here.

  • #193
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    @Felinewolfie ah so you read, but are incapable of conplex thought and thus failed to understand. That makes more sense. If you feel the ability to survive a mortar shell after when they are unable to now is a nerf you are lost. But as skys said, this isnt the place, this is a gren thread, nor is there any point of continuing with you as you lack understanding anyways.
  • #194
    1 year ago
    FelinewolfieFelinewol… Posts: 668
    edited March 2018

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @Felinewolfie ah so you read, but are incapable of conplex thought and thus failed to understand. That makes more sense. If you feel the ability to survive a mortar shell after when they are unable to now is a nerf you are lost. But as skys said, this isnt the place, this is a gren thread, nor is there any point of continuing with you as you lack understanding anyways.

    https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/machine-ethics
    Read this. It'll explain it to you in simple terms :) (You the guy, me the robot).

    I fully, completely, absolutely understand your point. You fail to understand my point. How is that lack of understanding?

    Your point is nerf Allies, buff Axis. I understand it on a unit-per-unit basis as well as how it situates within larger faction design. Your point is buff Axis squad size and DPS, while keeping their original price, while making their counters both weaker, costlier, and less relevant.

    What part did I not get?

    Bonus: Wehr sniper already survives mortar strikes just fine,
    and have easier access to healing in-field, and didn't receive
    a price boost. They are also actually have higher overall survicability
    AND damage (and price efficiency if we go with your suggestion).
    Bonus 2 : I didn't ask for a change to current sniper. I've adjusted
    to them having lowest dps and lowest health per model and having
    worst stealth and worst aim-speed and worse levelling speed and
    having lost sprint and clown-car, and...

    Let's just make it a wehr sniper clone at this point.
    We'll see if wehr sniper is so weak, after all.

  • #195
    1 year ago

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @Felinewolfie ah so you read, but are incapable of conplex thought and thus failed to understand. That makes more sense. If you feel the ability to survive a mortar shell after when they are unable to now is a nerf you are lost. But as skys said, this isnt the place, this is a gren thread, nor is there any point of continuing with you as you lack understanding anyways.

    https://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2247

    All discussions with you are as the above. And I do mean that completely sincerely.

  • #196
    1 year ago

    Ugh I cannot believe the amount of exaggeration you spew about everything Feline. Most people merely want grens spread their RA to vet 1 so they don't have to wait for vet 3 for a durability bonus since it's the only infantry (ostruppen too) that don't get the RA till the last vet level. And delay the IS 5 man upgrade and maybe the bren upgrade. And somehow you interpret that as people want grens to be an even better version of IS??!!!! And u think people want panthers to be spammable as allied mediums? Where are you getting this from?! Lay off your crack pipe. I don't think I've seen more crap from a member for the two years I've been a member of this forum. You're even worse than Katitof when it comes to posting absurdity. Yes, that is a benchmark I (and I bet many others) use. I haven't seen anyone worse than Katitof until you came around.

  • #197
    1 year ago

    So basically the consensus is just Grens should get RA buffs? Makes sense, after reading several pages flashing between seriousness and sarcasm.
    But for Sov Snipers I find them to be more annoying than anything, but when a Sov spams snipers it does cause a lot of MP bleed, which could be fixed by adjusting the 222, which in my opinion anyway is a POS, since it gets countered pretty fast by AT, PTRS, and Stuarts/AC/T-70. Not that the 222 should outperform those vehicles.

  • #198
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited March 2018

    @Hankmeupinside said:
    But for Sov Snipers I find them to be more annoying than anything, but when a Sov spams snipers it does cause a lot of MP bleed, which could be fixed by adjusting the 222, which in my opinion anyway is a POS, since it gets countered pretty fast by AT, PTRS, and Stuarts/AC/T-70. Not that the 222 should outperform those vehicles.

    A lot of people have talked about buffing the MG on the scout car so you don't have to rely on lucky hits from the flak gun to kill snipers. I think there is very little we can do to grens directly to help them with the soviet sniper, which already has much longer weapon cooldown than the Brit or Ost version.

  • #199
    1 year ago

    One big problem are sniper + T70 in combi with the rest. Only chance to get the soviet sniper are lucky mortar shots or 222. If, then there will be a T70 or simply at-rifles or nades. Or early T34. That is too much.

  • #200
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    @SkysTheLimit i dont think grens should right up counter snipers tbh. They are long ranged infantry and when they get their lmg they concentrate alot of DPS so they are suited to passively counter BAD sniper play, but the mp heavy nature of soviet t1 shouldnt be countered by just standard mainline infantry, mainly because snipers generally means forgoing supression (compared to ost and brits whom have it available as sniper support allowing them to get it as the opportunity arises vs a planned strat)
  • #201
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @SkysTheLimit i dont think grens should right up counter snipers tbh.

    Very much agreed, but Ost definitely needs help with the Sov Sniper in general, and part of that is because of grens being 4 men. The 222 rework is definitely the way to go.

  • #202
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    @SkysTheLimit i definitely want a 222 buff, i was considering a t1 221 (cheapened obviously) with the 222 upgrade coming at battlephase 1 costing the amount discounted, maybe a munitions cost in there as well that makes it bulletproof v small arms?
    The idea being coming earlier gives ost a sniper counter and the upgrade netting aroung what it costs now allows it a bit more time on the field before proper light tanks turn up. Give the 222 a proper window type deal (vs before a useless 221 and requirement to immediately upgrade before tanks poured out)


    also just for the sake of discussion what do you think of my sniper change proposal earlier in the thread?
  • #203
    1 year ago
    PrincessBubblegumPrincessB… Posts: 110
    edited March 2018

    @thedarkarmadillo написал:i dont think grens should right up counter snipers tbh. They are long ranged infantry and when they get their lmg they concentrate alot of DPS so they are suited to passively counter BAD sniper play

    Any sniper in game has 4 types of counter:
    1. Rushing forward with infantry
    2. Chasing it with vehicle
    3. Countersniping
    4. Flanking with infantry when opponent is focused on a front.
    Why only soviet sniper mustn't have a flanking/rushing counter when he plays against wehrmacht? Grenadiers can be whatever u think about em, but they still be mainline infantry, and any other mainline infantry can rush/flank any other sniper.

  • #204
    1 year ago

    @LetzteJunker Because Ost has no real rushing Inf, can't chasing with vehicles because useful ones come too late and are too expensive. German tanks are too cheesy vs inf blobbs. Only counter-sniping is a way, here it is 2vs1. ^^ The problem isn't only that Grens are bad or soviet sniper is too good. The hole Ostheer is curiously.

  • #205
    1 year ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,991
    edited March 2018

    With PTRSs being as ubiquitous as they are now, I fail to see how a 221/222 will do squat when you can screen snipers with AT weapons. Regardless, this thread is about Grenadiers last time I checked. Lets get back on track.

  • #206
    1 year ago

    @Widerstreit
    I agree with you, but if i was understanding right, @thedarkarmadillo said that grenadiers are not supposed to be a counter for soviet sniper in any case and my post is about "why the hell"?

  • #207
    1 year ago

    @LetzteJunker Sure, the fact that all counters are relative useless. ^^

  • #208
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    @hingie i believe that penals should have to chose between AI and AT (start with mosins, munition specialization, basicly mosin guards without) so the 221 would be a way to force then to get AT on one of their squads in the same way a brit or usf might slap some AT on.
    I advocated for soviet hand AT but as always im no fan of no brainer upgrades.

    @LetzteJunker teching basicly.
    Ost has linear teching, soviet does not. The soviet makes a choice, why should the ost not have to respond to the choice? Why should a standard BO counter a specialized one? Especially one as MP heavy as sniper and penals and guards. No squad costs less than 300mp.

    The 221/222 should be osts answer, a specialised unit that might otherwise be ignored. Thats the beautiful part of linear teching- you HAVE the options at your fingertips to respond to the enemy. If grens could counter the soviet sniper (for 2/3 the price) outside bad play what even would be the point in a) the sniper and b) the 222?
  • #209
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    Though I am leaning off topic here, surely with not only a 222 tweak, but perhaps if possible, having the OST sniper pick off one of the two team members of his SOV counterpart could temporarily stun the remaining sniper, opening up the ability to countersnipe. That gives the OST players more options short of a 222 rush that is easily handled by skilled players with mines/penal ptrs screen, and one that existed originally without any major balance concerns with the incendiary rounds before they had their necesssary nerfs.

  • #210
    1 year ago

    @Hankmeupinside said:
    So basically the consensus is just Grens should get RA buffs? Makes sense, after reading several pages flashing between seriousness and sarcasm.
    But for Sov Snipers I find them to be more annoying than anything, but when a Sov spams snipers it does cause a lot of MP bleed, which could be fixed by adjusting the 222, which in my opinion anyway is a POS, since it gets countered pretty fast by AT, PTRS, and Stuarts/AC/T-70. Not that the 222 should outperform those vehicles.

    =============
    OKW anti sniper is Kubel. Which is more of a POS
    Brit anti sniper is UC which is more of a POS
    Soviet anti sniper is Adv. Rifle Scout Car. Which is more of a POS
    American Anti sniper is M20. Which is costly, but still a late-game POS :)

    At least it has a turrent, which 3 of these others do not.

  • #211
    1 year ago

    @Felinewolfie Then maybe mechanized units as a whole need an overhaul, so that they aren't collectively pieces of shit.

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