[All][Ost] Grenadier Scaling

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Comments

  • #212
    1 year ago

    @Hankmeupinside said:
    @Felinewolfie Then maybe mechanized units as a whole need an overhaul, so that they aren't collectively pieces of shit.

    It's subjective. One person's piece of shit is another person's prized treasure.
    Why do you think they nerfed light vehicles? Helpinghans and other pros would use
    them to win the game at the 8 min mark and there wasn't anything anyone could do
    to stop them.

    Playstyle counts for a lot. It's hard to balance while taking different playstyle into account.

  • #213
    1 year ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited April 2018
    I just got the idea of increasing the squat-cost of ALL extra snipers by 20% if you still have another on feld. So first costs 360 and extra one 430 etc. This would maybe reduce the sniper-spams. The only nerf for soviet sniper that can work fine would be to give it same sight stats as german one, its not much but would increase the risc to use them without bodyguards.

    Back to topic: Grens work fine, but dobble Brens etc. are too much. Same for Vickers cover damage, this MG works over the top, why pinning if you simply kill everything. Over all machine guns arrice too early, MG42 lol.
  • #214
    1 year ago
    EeereEeere Posts: 18

    I like the idea of Grens being a little more resilient, but their pop cap might have to re-evaluated... which is apparently happening anyways >>

    PGrens should probably get the same "flak jacket" treatment. I'm ignorant to the historic themes, but on a surface level it seems fitting that the units named after grenades and tanks have unique explosive resistance. Don't think anything doctrinal is deserving of the change as all their doctrinal infantry are either AI specialists or Ostruppen, where watching them explode and still manage to retreat away is half the fun!

  • #215
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,653

    @Eeere said:
    I'm ignorant to the historic themes, but on a surface level it seems fitting that the units named after grenades and tanks have unique explosive resistance.

    They are not named after grenades and tanks.

    Grenadier is literally just a regular soldier in WW2 wehrmacht terms, nothing special about it.
    Panzer part does not come from tanks, it means they were mechanized aka used trucks and halftrucks to relocate instead of marching, like regular grenadier infantry did between battles.

    So yeah, you are pretty ignorant here.

  • #216
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    The name "grenadier" derives from grenades. "Grenadiers" where the "assault" troops of of the 17 century usually armed with grenades.

  • #217
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,653

    That's genesis of the actual word.
    In wehrmacht it was regular infantry name, nothing to do with grenades as every soldier was equipped with them.

  • #218
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    During WWII German infantry regiments where named "grenadier regiments" and "panzer grenadier" where named the infatry of Panzer divisions or the mechanized infantry divisions.

  • #219
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Next you sre going to tell me fussiliers have nothing to do with muskets?
  • #220
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,653

    @Vipper said:
    During WWII German infantry regiments where named "grenadier regiments" and "panzer grenadier" where named the infatry of Panzer divisions or the mechanized infantry divisions.

    Thank you for repeating what I have already said, however pointless it was.

  • #221
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited April 2018

    @Katitof said:
    Grenadier is literally just a regular soldier in WW2 wehrmacht terms, nothing special about it.
    Panzer part does not come from tanks, it means they were mechanized aka used trucks and halftrucks to relocate instead of marching, like regular grenadier infantry did between battles.

    So yeah, you are pretty ignorant here.

    It actually comes from tanks. A "Panzer division" (AKA as tank division) had "Panzer grenadiers" regiments, the support infantry.

    There where also merchandised division using the same name.

  • #222
    1 year ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,318 mod
    edited April 2018

    (Moderator Input) Please return the topic of balancing game units. Keep history discussions and schematics arguments to the minimum.

  • #223
    1 year ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited April 2018
    lol so much humbug, last off-topic.

    1. Until 1942/43 there were only Schützen and Oberschützen which were part of infantry battalions. Also after the name-change their name stays Schütze in division-level.
    2. Historical Grenadier was the name for special troops which used grenades in battle. In later times the name was used for special forces. At 1942/43 Schütze was changed with Grenadier too increase the moral.
    3. Panzergrenadiere were mobile infantry sections, specialized to fight with and by armored troups.

    It is nearly impossible make real differences, Grenadiere often had mobile support, Panzergrenadiere often had to fight by their own.


    So, back to the roots. We are talking about nonsense.
  • #224
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Not everyone is a history buff, it might ve easier on mew players for flavour text to be a bit more than that. For example the bulletin text on the isu about it being able to nuke tanks was pretty misleading when the isu had the pen of the m42 AT gun, Similiarily calling the m42 an AT gun is equally misleading. If you can a unit "super game ender uber tank von insta base killer" and its actually an opel blitz truck someone might get confused.

    Pgrens could totes get a small buff when near armour to enhance their depth utilizing their flavour, and grens could get what is decided they should get for what ever reasoning as well..
  • #225
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    > @Widerstreit said:
    > So, back to the roots. We are talking about nonsense.

    Bringing up history at all is nonsense here. I would know I used to do it many moons ago.

    Most of the tanks in this game would 1 shot eachother at the ranges they engage at. Ost has the most air support despite USF outnumbering them almost 3-1 in the skies. The Ostwind, Pershing, SturmTiger, etc. barely saw any action. The list goes on for a while
  • #226
    1 year ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited April 2018
    Now I good some levels deeper... There are 3 ways to balance a game like CoH. Make it realistic (timeline✅/ressources✅), semi-realistic (timeline✅/ressources❌), pure fantasy (timeline❌/ressources❌). We have a clear fall of semi-realistic, so the game has to be orientated on historical units, tactics and weapons. The real work is to make it playable with that criteria in a fictive realistic looking scenario. Finding a good ingame price for units and their strengths is a first step. BUT CoH2 made one big mistake, it went up and down all 3 balancing systems. xD

    So, where is the problem? Making Grens better but more expensive? Sweet.

    The game will never be perfect, the engine is crap. Also Relic isn't interested to overwork the game design. BUT we can make a community patch by our own, showing what we want for the public version. I am a member of the forum since years... but most stuff posted here wasn't worth reading it.

    etc.


    Back to Grens. If you overlook the hole game there are problems for all kind of infantry. Too many Mgs, too many passive artillery fire, too much all-rounder tanks, too less blob-punishments, etc. Changing the Grens wouldn't change anything.
  • #227
    1 year ago

    Just giving Ost mainline infantry slightly more resistance would allow them to fulfill their role as support infantry for tanks and MG's, rather than top-of-the-line infantry squads like riflemen or infantry sections. Just don't go making them better than the other mainline infantry, as that's not their job.

  • #228
    1 year ago
    KurfürstKurfürst Posts: 289

    @Hankmeupinside said:
    Just giving Ost mainline infantry slightly more resistance would allow them to fulfill their role as support infantry for tanks and MG's, rather than top-of-the-line infantry squads like riflemen or infantry sections. Just don't go making them better than the other mainline infantry, as that's not their job.

    I have been thinking about a small, gradual boost of RA with BF upgrades. Kinda like Global veterancy upgrades in Coh1. This would compensate for Wehr infantry struggle with scaling vs Alliend infantry as the game progresses. Allow them more field time to be able work their magic in combined arms without power spikes.

    Would work the following:

    BF 1 - LMG 42 upgrade for Grens - no change
    BF 2 - 3% received accuracy bonus for Grens, Pios.
    BF 3 - additional 3% received accuracy bonus for Grens, Pios and Panzergrenadiers (latter only in case of being near armored vehicles). Repair Pio upgrade for Tier IV (to free up Wehr Pios for the frontline).

  • #229
    1 year ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    The .9 modifier on mortars in the preview would go a long way for osts squads i think
  • #230
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    No it won't as long as i see retreating vet gren squad getting wiped by rifles mg, bren and allies tanks splash damge.

    You dont see the same thing for allies retreating infantry do u?
  • #231
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,653

    @mrgame2 said:
    No it won't as long as i see retreating vet gren squad getting wiped by rifles mg, bren and allies tanks splash damge.

    You dont see the same thing for allies retreating infantry do u?

    You might want to learn to retreat earlier.

    Doing it with last model standing on 20 hp IS going to get them wiped.

    Bad situation assesment and not having a clue when is the right time to retreat isn't part of balance problem and it seems like you simply overextend, which has nothing to do with rifles or mgs, because this simply does not happen often at higher skill level plays.

  • #232
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited April 2018
    Retreat earlier means allies squad can hold a point longer, you see the problem here, why axis has been crying against allies late game buff in DBP while wehr infantry got nothing to counter allies early game? Allies now have advantage through the whole game.
  • #233
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,653

    @mrgame2 said:
    Retreat earlier means allies squad can hold a point longer, you see the problem here, why axis has been crying against allies late game buff in DBP while wehr infantry got nothing to counter allies early game? Allies now have advantage through the whole game.

    And suiciding your squad instead is going to help you how?

    And please, allied early game was nerfed equally as axis late game to be leveled.
    If you still struggle, you might want to visit strategy forum instead-hell, you should move there permanently from balance forums if you truly believe wehr got nothing on allies with most powerful HMG, sniper and earliest on field reinforcement in form of 251.

    Being bad at the game is not a balance problem.

  • #234
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited April 2018
    How can you compare wehr mg to imba allies inf? You cant push aggressively with the mg, maybe you could with much older version and make spam. Mg has only a very short window of adv while allies inf go from start to end.

    Sniper is a high risk play but compared to soviet sniper trolling, again wehr is inferior. (2 vs 4 man while 1 vs 5-6 man)

    And 251, who goes for an early 251? Besides getting easily snared, you will lose to an early t70 or Stuart without AT defense, while allies inf walks all over you n drain your mp.

    Stop trying to downplay this. The fact is grens need some kind of boost, when the SBP is going to increase its mp by 1.

    In theory axis units is strong (besides panther) but their window is all bad, when allies can put in a units wall to easily counter wehr. 5-6 man squad + long range arty + long range AT penetration.
  • #235
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    And speaking of wehr mg, how often you see it get wiped/drecrew when an allies inf walk into its arc of fire and throw a grenade?

    Cant say the same for vickers and maxim when facing wehr.
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