Spring Update Balance Discussion

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  • #452
    1 year ago
    CielphantomhiveCielphant… Posts: 153

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:

    @Cielphantomhive said:

    AT guns wont work as I have MGs and panzerwerfers which avoid them getting near my STUGs.

    Getting both Tier 3 and 4 is very expensive, and the opponent will have plenty of time to destroy your stugs before you get a werfer. And I've already said, that if you use your Stugs aggressively, the opponent will likely get a TD and alpha strike your stugs. And most likely get hit by a snare + engine damage if you try to rush the TD.

    I do not see the point of attacking STUG by themselves. This is a skill issue.

    Even tanks successfully flank these STUG spam, due to the high movability of STUG, the surprise attack will lose it nature of surprise and simply becomes a normal tank fight which STUGs as a cheap and high HP TD will win. OR even I hv lost those STUGs, the v. cheap price will just let me rebuild 3-4 in around 5 minutes under the premise that I have not selected the fuel dropping commander or Cargo truck commander. For my enemy, he shall have lost the same number as mine but he does not have such commander and his tanks are more expensive.

    Yes Stugs are cheap and you can trade effectively given the same fuel income, however, in what way does this make Stugs op and not Su76, Su76 are even more mobile than Stugs, have more range and penetration. Everything you said about the Stug can be said about the Su76, so why aren't you saying that Su76 is op too? Su76 didn't even get a pop cap nerf.

    Maxims MG has a low suppression rate, unlike MG42 which 1 one the MG42 can stop 2-3 squads of infantry. That makes anti-tank infantry flanking so hard to get closer to STUGs. SU76 has thinner armor and lower HP which makes them unable to react once they got flanked. Also, the armor piercing rounds can do damage to SU76 while no MG can do damage to STUG. Not to mention, if I have picked commanders with vehicle smoke, the survivability is greatly increased for STUGs while SU76s can never have those.

    Furthermore, STUG has more HP than SU76 which is 400 to 320. DMG 160 to 120. AOE 1.5 to 0.5(which makes STUG more accurate) PRICE 230MP and 80FUEL to 240MP and 70 FUEL. Armor 140/70 to 70/35. STUG is far OP than SU76 with a similar price.

    Wrong. Stug has 560 HP, Su76 400 HP. HOW IS THE STUG 230 MP AND 80 FUEL????????? I can't believe you have the gall to debate me when you have no clue what a stug costs!? AOE? Aoe stats are mainly for infantry killing - it has little effect on tank hitting accuracy. Stug is more expensive at 280 mp and 90 f and comes later than the su76. SU76 trades damage for range and penetration. Stug pop cap 10, Su pop cap 8. Su has a good barrage ability. Stug has a bugged TWP. Not sure how Stug is far more op than Su.

    I have retrieved the data in the following link. Please show me a better one if you can offer
    https://www.coh2.org/topic/16753/tank-penetration-vs-range-graph-and-statistics

    In addition, I have similar ranks for USF, BRITs and OST. I do not play soviet because I do not like Communist much while I do not play OKW because it is simply cheap OP folks blobbing. Under this circumstances, I have played both Axis and allies in 4v4 which in most of the game axis player with same level performs worse. (For example, the PPL who use STUGs to rush enemy base without infantry and arty cover.)

    OKW is volks spam? Then what is USF and UKF rifle/section blobs or emplacement spam. Hypocritical much? The chance of volks spam is actually lower than rifle/section blob.

    Emplacement spam is only for noobs, in 4v4 game, emplacement will always be destroyed due to its very low Health point and armor. I never use UKF infantry section blobs as they are over nerfed which 1 MG 42 can easily red pin 3-4 teams of those. Meanwhile, Riflemen is very inaccurate which despite successful flanking, you need at less 3 squads of those to wipe a starting-retreat MG42 (which only start retreating when they are attacked for at least 1 second) which I considered very insufficient.

    Also, if you want a competitive game, play 2v2s instead of 4v4. Since you're insulting axis 4v4 players, I might as well say that on average, 4v4 players are simply not as good as 1v1 and 2v2 players. Also, the problem with 4v4 is that most maps are too small which discourages flanking which may allow Stugs to be "more op" than they should. There are a few 2v2s that are a bit narrow but most maps are decently sized.

    That is your opinion, it is totally different game for 1p1, 2p2, 3p3 and 4p4. I am quite sure that you will lose most of your 4v4 game if you play it like 2v2. This is a place for discussing balancing but not only 1v1 or 2v2 balancing. Also, I suspect you insulting all 4v4 players due to your ignorant to 4v4 games.

  • #453
    1 year ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited May 2018

    @Cielphantomhive

    You obviously don't know what I'm talking about. You think at guns are useless vs Stugs because you're going to get panzerwerfers. Tell me at what time an allied player can get an at gun, and when u get your first panzerwerfer.

    You think incendiary rounds is a reliable counter to su76? Maybe when it has 30% health and engine damage. Otherwise it won't be contributing to any armored fighting anytime soon. Both the Stug and Su76 are defenseless if they are flanked. The Stug just dies a few seconds later due to having a bit more health so again you fail to prove how Stug is better than SU76.

    I don't care where you get your stats from if you can't understand them. AOE has little impact on accuracy vs tanks so saying that Stug has better AOE doesn't mean it has better accuracy vs tanks. And your source of data is obviously unreliable as the HP values are wrong. (removed)

    If you think sections are overnerfed and riflemen are too inaccurate, then I guess grens might as well be deleted from the game because they are even worse. A blob of WFA infantry can kill the gunner of an mg half of the time before the blob gets suppressed. When that happens, the mg will try to retreat, but will likely get wiped by the long pack up time if the WFA infantry are decently upgraded. That is outstanding performance as you can count on stealing an mg every third engagement by using blob tactics.
    (removed)

  • #454
    1 year ago
    CielphantomhiveCielphant… Posts: 153
    edited May 2018

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    @Cielphantomhive

    You obviously don't know what I'm talking about. You think at guns are useless vs Stugs because you're going to get panzerwerfers. Tell me at what time an allied player can get an at gun, and when u get your first panzerwerfer.

    I did not say Panzerwerfers are the only solution to counter At guns, I have also stated MGs and commander abilities, why will you like to pick up only parts of my words that favor you?

    You think incendiary rounds is a reliable counter to su76? Maybe when it has 30% health and engine damage. Otherwise it won't be contributing to any armored fighting anytime soon. Both the Stug and Su76 are defenseless if they are flanked. The Stug just dies a few seconds later due to having a bit more health so again you fail to prove how Stug is better than SU76.

    As you have stated here, better survivability and invulnerable to MGs, this is how STUG performs better than SU76. You are simply contradicting your statement of saying how I have failed to prove STUG is better than SU76.

    If you think sections are overnerfed and riflemen are too inaccurate, then I guess grens might as well be deleted from the game because they are even worse. A blob of WFA infantry can kill the gunner of an mg half of the time before the blob gets suppressed. When that happens, the mg will try to retreat, but will likely get wiped by the long pack up time if the WFA infantry are decently upgraded. That is outstanding performance as you can count on stealing an mg every third engagement by using blob tactics.

    Your argument is invalid, first, why Grens has to be removed simply because they are worse (I do not agree with this anyway) Secondly, you have mentioned that blobbing of WFA infantry can kill the gunner of MG, please provide evidence to support your argument. Not to mention, how many munitions and MP are required for one to kill an MG face-to-face. The player has given up tanks and arty in doing such. I presume that as a tactical victory for the MG side as 260-280MP can trade for such a high MP and munitions which it is hardly believed the MG side will simply have 1 MG to defend an area in such situation. Thirdly, OKW can finish the mission impossible with two squads of volks which according to your argument all infantries other than volks shall be removed.

    (edited to remove quoted parts)

  • #455
    1 year ago
    PrincessBubblegumPrincessB… Posts: 110

    FInal version of spring update is sick.
    Another nerf for wehrmacht, what kill two last things that saves the day and increasing popcap for useful units.
    Making STUGs rate of fire lower relic just prove that only side what historically won the war has right to own cost-effective units.
    I stopped playing axis after last patch with buffed penal+sniper meta and i think that the best way to deal with this madness is just leave the game if mortar HT's and stugs nerfs are going to release.

  • #456
    1 year ago
    PrincessBubblegumPrincessB… Posts: 110

    Deeply sorry for my last comment and i must say that i'm taking my words back.
    Wasnt noticing, that patch was released when i posted my comment, have played couple of matches as every faction... And it was more comfortable for everyone.
    So, game is really better that before the patch.
    Sorry again for frustrated comment.

  • #457
    1 year ago
    TroydTroyd Posts: 24

    @Eeere said:
    If the 222 is getting its price decreased, what about lowering the cost of the M20? 222 will hard counter a vehicle that costs an overpriced extra 140 mp (340>200)

    The m20 comes before the 222, it also already is hard countered by the 222 in a vehicle vs vehicle setting.

    In reality the M20 posses enough utility it can deal with a 222 solo and destroy it in a combined arms fashion.

    Eg. It can smoke to escape death. It can bait the 222 into the deployable mine (most powerful in game) by pretending to be "vulnerable" somewhere. It can decrew to give you a free bazooka squad to threaten destroying to 222 in exchange for the M20 hull (not squad). it can self repair after an engagement, meaning you can commit more units to combat while also repairing. Further, just like grenadiers, riflemen can snare light vehicles - preventing them from solo diving things. You can also commit the M20 to one side of the map, baiting the 222 to move away from werhmachts main formation allowing you to push on his main army with the rest of your rifles.

    What happened to the tommy medkit duration decrease? I was looking forward to them healing faster, currently its generally too long to feasibly group heal in-field and still maintain map control.

    They really don't need this. Given the heal is AOE and available anywhere, it gives brits the ability to hold ground like no other faction. A common brit + soviet tactic I use in 2v2 is to skip medics but grab healing for my conscripts from tommy squads. Quick rushing a soviet half track + brit healing gives immense healing + reinforce potential.

    With the nerf to USF late game I'd like to see them reconsider Rifleman smoke. If they don't get to have a strong late game they could really use the early game boost, especially with the .50 getting nerfs. Besides that it still feels like USF lost a big part of their identity with the loss of smoke on rifles.

    What nerf to USF late game? There are no changes to the primary Anti-infantry units (shermans, rifles, m8s). The .50 cal is just losing sprint. For AT everything is the same but Jacksons, and the changes don't decrease damage output by any measure - just losing 5 range.

    With the nerf to USF late game I'd like to see them reconsider Rifleman smoke.

    No, rifle smoke was broken as fuck. I took full advantage of the fact I could reduce my opponent's effective damage in half, negate snipers, save retreating squads / tanks and negate suppression all with a single 15 muni ability.

    Not to mention the proliferation of smoke is still rampant in the faction and is one of the defining features of the faction. Every officer and RE has smoke, which in almost every situation one of these units are on the frontline.

  • #458
    1 year ago
    TroydTroyd Posts: 24

    @Eeere said:
    If the 222 is getting its price decreased, what about lowering the cost of the M20? 222 will hard counter a vehicle that costs an overpriced extra 140 mp (340>200)

    The m20 comes before the 222, it also already is hard countered by the 222 in a vehicle vs vehicle setting.

    In reality the M20 posses enough utility it can deal with a 222 solo and destroy it in a combined arms fashion.

    Eg. It can smoke to escape death. It can bait the 222 into the deployable mine (most powerful in game) by pretending to be "vulnerable" somewhere. It can decrew to give you a free bazooka squad to threaten destroying to 222 in exchange for the M20 hull (not squad). it can self repair after an engagement, meaning you can commit more units to combat while also repairing. Further, just like grenadiers, riflemen can snare light vehicles - preventing them from solo diving things. You can also commit the M20 to one side of the map, baiting the 222 to move away from werhmachts main formation allowing you to push on his main army with the rest of your rifles.

    What happened to the tommy medkit duration decrease? I was looking forward to them healing faster, currently its generally too long to feasibly group heal in-field and still maintain map control.

    They really don't need this. Given the heal is AOE and available anywhere, it gives brits the ability to hold ground like no other faction. A common brit + soviet tactic I use in 2v2 is to skip medics but grab healing for my conscripts from tommy squads. Quick rushing a soviet half track + brit healing gives immense healing + reinforce potential.

    With the nerf to USF late game I'd like to see them reconsider Rifleman smoke. If they don't get to have a strong late game they could really use the early game boost, especially with the .50 getting nerfs. Besides that it still feels like USF lost a big part of their identity with the loss of smoke on rifles.

    What nerf to USF late game? There are no changes to the primary Anti-infantry units (shermans, rifles, m8s). The .50 cal is just losing sprint. For AT everything is the same but Jacksons, and the changes don't decrease damage output by any measure - just losing 5 range.

    With the nerf to USF late game I'd like to see them reconsider Rifleman smoke.

    No, rifle smoke was broken as fuck. I took full advantage of the fact I could reduce my opponent's effective damage in half, negate snipers, save retreating squads / tanks and negate suppression all with a single 15 muni ability.

    Not to mention the proliferation of smoke is still rampant in the faction and is one of the defining features of the faction. Every officer and RE has smoke, which in almost every situation one of these units are on the frontline.

  • #459
    1 year ago
    TroydTroyd Posts: 24

    @Eeere said:
    If the 222 is getting its price decreased, what about lowering the cost of the M20? 222 will hard counter a vehicle that costs an overpriced extra 140 mp (340>200)

    The m20 comes before the 222, it also already is hard countered by the 222 in a vehicle vs vehicle setting.

    In reality the M20 posses enough utility it can deal with a 222 solo and destroy it in a combined arms fashion.

    Eg. It can smoke to escape death. It can bait the 222 into the deployable mine (most powerful in game) by pretending to be "vulnerable" somewhere. It can decrew to give you a free bazooka squad to threaten destroying to 222 in exchange for the M20 hull (not squad). it can self repair after an engagement, meaning you can commit more units to combat while also repairing. Further, just like grenadiers, riflemen can snare light vehicles - preventing them from solo diving things. You can also commit the M20 to one side of the map, baiting the 222 to move away from werhmachts main formation allowing you to push on his main army with the rest of your rifles.

    What happened to the tommy medkit duration decrease? I was looking forward to them healing faster, currently its generally too long to feasibly group heal in-field and still maintain map control.

    They really don't need this. Given the heal is AOE and available anywhere, it gives brits the ability to hold ground like no other faction. A common brit + soviet tactic I use in 2v2 is to skip medics but grab healing for my conscripts from tommy squads. Quick rushing a soviet half track + brit healing gives immense healing + reinforce potential.

    With the nerf to USF late game I'd like to see them reconsider Rifleman smoke. If they don't get to have a strong late game they could really use the early game boost, especially with the .50 getting nerfs. Besides that it still feels like USF lost a big part of their identity with the loss of smoke on rifles.

    What nerf to USF late game? There are no changes to the primary Anti-infantry units (shermans, rifles, m8s). The .50 cal is just losing sprint. For AT everything is the same but Jacksons, and the changes don't decrease damage output by any measure - just losing 5 range.

    With the nerf to USF late game I'd like to see them reconsider Rifleman smoke.

    No, rifle smoke was broken as fuck. I took full advantage of the fact I could reduce my opponent's effective damage in half, negate snipers, save retreating squads / tanks and negate suppression all with a single 15 muni ability.

    Not to mention the proliferation of smoke is still rampant in the faction and is one of the defining features of the faction. Every officer and RE has smoke, which in almost every situation one of these units are on the frontline.

  • #460
    1 year ago
    TroydTroyd Posts: 24

    @Eeere said:
    If the 222 is getting its price decreased, what about lowering the cost of the M20? 222 will hard counter a vehicle that costs an overpriced extra 140 mp (340>200)

    The m20 comes before the 222, it also already is hard countered by the 222 in a vehicle vs vehicle setting.

    In reality the M20 posses enough utility it can deal with a 222 solo and destroy it in a combined arms fashion.

    Eg. It can smoke to escape death. It can bait the 222 into the deployable mine (most powerful in game) by pretending to be "vulnerable" somewhere. It can decrew to give you a free bazooka squad to threaten destroying to 222 in exchange for the M20 hull (not squad). it can self repair after an engagement, meaning you can commit more units to combat while also repairing. Further, just like grenadiers, riflemen can snare light vehicles - preventing them from solo diving things. You can also commit the M20 to one side of the map, baiting the 222 to move away from werhmachts main formation allowing you to push on his main army with the rest of your rifles.

    What happened to the tommy medkit duration decrease? I was looking forward to them healing faster, currently its generally too long to feasibly group heal in-field and still maintain map control.

    They really don't need this. Given the heal is AOE and available anywhere, it gives brits the ability to hold ground like no other faction. A common brit + soviet tactic I use in 2v2 is to skip medics but grab healing for my conscripts from tommy squads. Quick rushing a soviet half track + brit healing gives immense healing + reinforce potential.

    With the nerf to USF late game I'd like to see them reconsider Rifleman smoke. If they don't get to have a strong late game they could really use the early game boost, especially with the .50 getting nerfs. Besides that it still feels like USF lost a big part of their identity with the loss of smoke on rifles.

    What nerf to USF late game? There are no changes to the primary Anti-infantry units (shermans, rifles, m8s). The .50 cal is just losing sprint. For AT everything is the same but Jacksons, and the changes don't decrease damage output by any measure - just losing 5 range.

    With the nerf to USF late game I'd like to see them reconsider Rifleman smoke.

    No, rifle smoke was broken as fuck. I took full advantage of the fact I could reduce my opponent's effective damage in half, negate snipers, save retreating squads / tanks and negate suppression all with a single 15 muni ability.

    Not to mention the proliferation of smoke is still rampant in the faction and is one of the defining features of the faction. Every officer and RE has smoke, which in almost every situation one of these units are on the frontline.

  • #461
    1 year ago
    TroydTroyd Posts: 24

    @Eeere said:
    If the 222 is getting its price decreased, what about lowering the cost of the M20? 222 will hard counter a vehicle that costs an overpriced extra 140 mp (340>200)

    The m20 comes before the 222, it also already is hard countered by the 222 in a vehicle vs vehicle setting.

    In reality the M20 posses enough utility it can deal with a 222 solo and destroy it in a combined arms fashion.

    Eg. It can smoke to escape death. It can bait the 222 into the deployable mine (most powerful in game) by pretending to be "vulnerable" somewhere. It can decrew to give you a free bazooka squad to threaten destroying to 222 in exchange for the M20 hull (not squad). it can self repair after an engagement, meaning you can commit more units to combat while also repairing. Further, just like grenadiers, riflemen can snare light vehicles - preventing them from solo diving things. You can also commit the M20 to one side of the map, baiting the 222 to move away from werhmachts main formation allowing you to push on his main army with the rest of your rifles.

    What happened to the tommy medkit duration decrease? I was looking forward to them healing faster, currently its generally too long to feasibly group heal in-field and still maintain map control.

    They really don't need this. Given the heal is AOE and available anywhere, it gives brits the ability to hold ground like no other faction. A common brit + soviet tactic I use in 2v2 is to skip medics but grab healing for my conscripts from tommy squads. Quick rushing a soviet half track + brit healing gives immense healing + reinforce potential.

    With the nerf to USF late game I'd like to see them reconsider Rifleman smoke. If they don't get to have a strong late game they could really use the early game boost, especially with the .50 getting nerfs. Besides that it still feels like USF lost a big part of their identity with the loss of smoke on rifles.

    What nerf to USF late game? There are no changes to the primary Anti-infantry units (shermans, rifles, m8s). The .50 cal is just losing sprint. For AT everything is the same but Jacksons, and the changes don't decrease damage output by any measure - just losing 5 range.

    With the nerf to USF late game I'd like to see them reconsider Rifleman smoke.

    No, rifle smoke was broken as fuck. I took full advantage of the fact I could reduce my opponent's effective damage in half, negate snipers, save retreating squads / tanks and negate suppression all with a single 15 muni ability.

    Not to mention the proliferation of smoke is still rampant in the faction and is one of the defining features of the faction. Every officer and RE has smoke, which in almost every situation one of these units are on the frontline.

  • #462
    1 year ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,297 mod

    (Moderator Input) Closing down the thread as it has had its run. Thanks for the feedback!

This discussion has been closed.

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