I found out most of the time, there is always an opponent build 88mm + 105mm to counter british Players
Even though I have T3 and 2 25 pound howitzer, still can not destroy a 88mm or 105mm at once. Not mention sexton has very short range to counter those things.
normally, they just build bunker + MG + 88mm + 105mm and then go T4 or king tiger. Probably sometimes with stug III or jagder panzer IV.
I totally have no efficient strategy to handle this situation. I suggest that 88mm and 105mm should be cost more MP and fuel. Also please buff british long range fire power such as sexton. Over all, 88mm and 105mm has been abuse by axis players in 2v2 especially against double UK.
8 CP, 450 MP and 450 fuel is too cheap and too powerful. Please nerf them or buff UK sexton.
@Dovahkiin said:
7. Stugs are cheaper. But not way cheaper. The Jackson is 350 MP and 125 fuel to the Stugs 280 MP and 90 Fuel cost. But the Jackson is far superior and any nerfing to the Stug or Pop cap increase makes it so much less describable. A better decision would be to slightly buff the Stug and slightly increase the cost. It already is the only Tank Destroyer that is available to the Wehrmacht so it being inferior is very painful.
Jackson is 400 manpower, 145 fu, 16 pop and range 55.
Jackson used to do 200 dmg, now nerfed to 160 dmg.
Only non-doctrinal TD that USF has.
StuG is 280 manpower, 90 fu, 10 pop and range 55.
Stug has stun shot.
StuG has better armor (esp w Pz4C and Hulldown)
StuG had better ROF AND Range than Jackson w Hulldown.
Could have two StuG per Jackson (due to pop)
(8 pop vs 16 pop). Do you still ask why StuG pop was increased?
PS: Jackson used to have 480 health, too.
Panther is also a Tank destroyer, and it now can take an extra shot. Also got acc and ROF Buff.
If USF has M10, then Wehr has Elefant, and Puma.
PzShrek just got buffed.
Germans wanted Jackson nerfed. All they needed was to have their own TDs nerfed as well.
Also it is almost Identical in cost to the SU76 (280 MP and 85 Fuel) but the SU76 also gets the barrage ability and I believe has slightly better range while similar in health and damage. The Stug is a little better at Anti Inf but the Soviets also have the SU85 which is pretty good, with good health, armor, damage and better range than really any Wehrmacht tank.
SU76 pen got lowered.
StuG wins any duel with SU76.
StuG has 480 life. Does 160 dmg. Has higher ROF has more armor. Has an MG.
has command pz4. Has Hull down.
SU76 has 400 life. Does 120 dmg. Has lower pen and lower ROF. Has no MG.
Has no command aura bonus, and no hulldown.
StuG also has stun shot.
StuG had about double ROF of SU76 (and more range) with Hull down and about 200% more armor
w Hulldown + Pz4. (Not to mention vet). Maybe 250% armor.
Side note. SU-85 just went up to 15 pop (+3 pop!!!!!!!!!!)
I am NOT going to feel sorry for StuG going up by +2 pop.
dude STUG Has
560 HP, 140 Frontal armor Not 480
STUG has 560 armor, so it is almost same as P4 (p4 has 640 hp)
@Dovahkiin said:
7. Stugs are cheaper. But not way cheaper. The Jackson is 350 MP and 125 fuel to the Stugs 280 MP and 90 Fuel cost. But the Jackson is far superior and any nerfing to the Stug or Pop cap increase makes it so much less describable. A better decision would be to slightly buff the Stug and slightly increase the cost. It already is the only Tank Destroyer that is available to the Wehrmacht so it being inferior is very painful.
Jackson is 400 manpower, 145 fu, 16 pop and range 55.
Jackson used to do 200 dmg, now nerfed to 160 dmg.
Only non-doctrinal TD that USF has.
StuG is 280 manpower, 90 fu, 10 pop and range 55.
Stug has stun shot.
StuG has better armor (esp w Pz4C and Hulldown)
StuG had better ROF AND Range than Jackson w Hulldown.
Could have two StuG per Jackson (due to pop)
(8 pop vs 16 pop). Do you still ask why StuG pop was increased?
PS: Jackson used to have 480 health, too.
Panther is also a Tank destroyer, and it now can take an extra shot. Also got acc and ROF Buff.
If USF has M10, then Wehr has Elefant, and Puma.
PzShrek just got buffed.
Germans wanted Jackson nerfed. All they needed was to have their own TDs nerfed as well.
Also it is almost Identical in cost to the SU76 (280 MP and 85 Fuel) but the SU76 also gets the barrage ability and I believe has slightly better range while similar in health and damage. The Stug is a little better at Anti Inf but the Soviets also have the SU85 which is pretty good, with good health, armor, damage and better range than really any Wehrmacht tank.
SU76 pen got lowered.
StuG wins any duel with SU76.
StuG has 480 life. Does 160 dmg. Has higher ROF has more armor. Has an MG.
has command pz4. Has Hull down.
SU76 has 400 life. Does 120 dmg. Has lower pen and lower ROF. Has no MG.
Has no command aura bonus, and no hulldown.
StuG also has stun shot.
StuG had about double ROF of SU76 (and more range) with Hull down and about 200% more armor
w Hulldown + Pz4. (Not to mention vet). Maybe 250% armor.
Side note. SU-85 just went up to 15 pop (+3 pop!!!!!!!!!!)
I am NOT going to feel sorry for StuG going up by +2 pop.
> @Farlion said:
> @firestone said:
> Rifleman performance, which is the backbone of usf, is not very good for price.
>
>
>
>
>
> What?
>
> Vetted Riflemen with BARs are the gold standard of all Coh2 infantry.
vetted riflemen with BARs needs 280 manpowers and 28 reinforce + 120 munitions + weapon rack upgrades. it needs almost 1.5~1.6 times mucher price than other factions's frontline infantry(except brits). 1919s, needs 70 munitions + command abillity + 3cp, but they has only 70% spec of gren's mg42. is it fare? I play all factions and in the top 100 on a 1v1 , but I have never felt that USF riflemen is stronger than other factions's frontline infantry. They have a low evasion bonus, even though they are units that are forced CQBs(compare to strumpioniers. riflemen's evasion bonus is much lower than them.). And the cost is never reasonable. The USF has only a riflemen for frontline infantry in late games, but it has terrible consequences in consumption because of the reinforcement costs, low evasion, and the limit of close-up infantry. This is exactly same reason that Panzer Grenadiers is hard to use later in the game. Wehr players always complain about the Panzer Grenadiers are underpowered, and they tend to ovetestimate Riflemem, but at least considering the munition cost, which was never cheap and considering their price, it is unreliable.
Ost and West:
Panther range from 50 to 55.
StuG range stays 50.
Tiger 1 and 2 range from 45 to 50, Vet to 55.
Soviets:
SU85 range stays 60.
SU76 range from 60 to 55.
US:
Jackson range stays 60.
Pershing range 45 to 50, Vet 55.
Brits:
Firefly range from 60 to 55.
Also the damage of ALL battletanks (which only have one shell tpye) versus infantry need some standards. E. g. Panzer 4 or Chromewell has good mix. The idea is to reduce the AI potential of T34, Tiger (is also decent now) , Pershing, Comet etc. The main differences should be range, pen and AT performance.
I have not enough time now to explain it more. Maybe I will make a small mod to show my ideas. But it's exam time.
> @Eeere said:
> So much for "better frontal protection than a Tiger"
> I really don't think the armor and HP changes on the Panther are smart, the last thing it needs is longer repair times.
>
This. What are the Tiger armour/health stats vs this preliminary Panther?
This. What are the Tiger armour/health stats vs this preliminary Panther?
Tiger has 300 front armor and 1040 health, higher rear armor
Live panther has 320 front and 800 health, 110 rear
Nu-panther has 260 front and 960 health, 90 rear
Panthers rear can bounce shots from the t34 even after the nerf. Also 260 armour is a joke, it has to be. Im actually thinking this patch is a late april fools joke.
So - I want to discuss the patch in a different way than just how the changes will impact the game. Namely - how they're written. This is going to sound super pedantic and I appreciate that writing or compiling patch notes is absolutely the worst - but frankly this is a bit silly. Without wanting to demean the people who put effort in to these notes, the completed notes are barely usable.
USF M83 Cluster Bombs
The following change has been made to decrease instant squad wipes while still **conducting** damage to squads caught unawares.
bolded by me - bombs don't conduct damage. I don't even know what word the writer was thinking of that got mixed up with conducting. Not a huge deal, but will be part of a running theme later.
Smoke Raid
• Activation delay from 10 secs to 5 secs
• **Filter actions -> future units: true (bugfix)**
What does this mean? How does this impact unit/ability behavior? What does it actually do? This line imparts no information to the average user - which is bad patch note writing. It may as well be in Latin.
WEHRMACHT
Hull Down
To increase the usability of this ability, the following changes have been made
• Cast time from 15 secs to 7.5 secs
**• Offensive bonuses removed (defensive bonuses remain)**
Incidentally I hate this change but that's because I'm a massive sucker for Hull Down. Again, vague notes. Was the range buff an offensive buff or defensive buff? It affects the main gun so one assumes offensive, but then range on TDs and ATGs is primarily a defensive stat - to keep the unit out of danger. Needs clarification.
POPULATION CHANGES
Population has been adjusted across a number of units to encourage more diverse unit compositions.
USF
• Pershing: 19 **(From what though???)**
This entire section is guilty and actually pisses me off. It isn't a change log, it's a factoid log. The new pop on any given unit is meaningless unless you can see what it was before the change. True, people can boot up the game and see the change themselves, or open the files. But then - why bother with the notes at all? Just write "populations have changed" and leave it at that.
Stug
We feel the Stug’s strong DPSC is disproportionate to its cost. This combination of **high rate of fire, strong and armour** make the unit over perform in certain situations
Strong what? Nazi tendencies? Jawline? Smell? This seems like nitpicking but you're trying to justify nerfing one of the only crutches keeping Wehrmacht in the mid to late game and this error just looks like someone wanted three reasons to nerf the StuG but could only come up with two.
Guards
Guards are having... their population is also being increased to match other elite squads.
• Popcap from 8 to 9
See - this is how you write a popcap change, you have the before and the after. But it then raises the question - why is it listed here instead of in the massive list of popcap changes that we already had? Why was there a long list of popcap changes when a lot of those units get entries that could include the change anyway? This is extremely inconsistent - and strongly suggests these patch notes were submitted by multiple different people with differing levels of commitment to writing usable patch notes - with the results being all copied and pasted warts and all in to one big forum post. If you want to give the impression you're just kicking shit out the door without any QA, this is how you do it.
BOIS Anti-Tank Infantry Sections
It's Boys. That's just me being an asshole though.
USF
To improve counter play vs the **.50 cal mortar**, sprint is being removed from veterancy 1.
The .50 cal what now? See - here's where just picking the wrong word starts to become confusing. Am I having a stroke? Is it supposed to be "MG" or it supposed to be "and mortar"? The difference might not seem like a lot, but it's about imparting accurate information so we know why changes are being done and can effectively measure their success.
These patch notes just aren't professional because they leave plenty of room for confusion. I'm not that guy who says "hurr durr misspelling therefore patch invalid" - there's still plenty I'm reserving judgement on until the patch is made public and will discuss whether the notes impart the information or not. But that's the thing. The patch notes are a communication tool, and in a lot of circumstances they just aren't communicating.
Edit: speaking of communication what gives with ctrl + B not bolding junk?
We are really appreciate you for your work on the game!
We understand that you are making changes on the base of the feedbacks of the community.
From my part I represent Ukrainian community and I have to say on behalf of it that making soviets poorer is awful mistake, in particular:
Conscript PPSh - it is very important to keep 3 ppsh per squad. In the late game it is very difficult to handle with okw troops with StGs.
Deflection damage of PTRS reduced from 20 to 10 - it is unacceptable!
Other changes are not so important like these ones.
Pls, think very hard about it.
Best regards,
Ukrainian community representative
Anton
@CarusoUA The nerf of PTRS is one of the rare good changes. And you find it unacceptable? Why should they counter medium and heavy tanks? At that battle phase you get PaKs, tanks and multible abilities.
It becomes difficult to handle late-game OKW? Stop researching PTRS for penals, use a commander or... build tanks! Especially soviets have enough tools.
The global Mortar nerfs I like. Though I guess it would be better to nerf the accuracy rather than the RoF, since sudden mortar wipes and consistent damage without bleed are a problem. It supposed to be a dislocation tool rather than a steady bleed tool. Which will remain the same with mortar spam.
Wehr infantry still struggles, and will struggle even more with the popcap nerfs. Consider a received accuracy buff of 3%-3% at BF 2 and BF 3, effecting Pios and Grens to help them stay on the field - Panzergrens receive this buff only when near tanks or armored vehicles.
Soviet sniper changes just make the game more pale. Increase its counters, nerf received accuracy to help counters, but keep it as its designed, a two man, durable Soviet squad.
Command Pz IV changes are unwarranted. The unit was never a problem and the changes simply make it pointless.
The **StuG ** RoF changes are in the right direction, but out of context - the StuG and mortars are what keep Wehr afloat, and you nerf both. If the StuGs RoF is nerfed, at least increase its armor to OST Pz IV level so that it could actually work as counter vs mediums. Because as opposed to whatever the patch notes lies about it, it does not have armor. None to speak of. Right now everything penetrates it, its basically a more expensive Su 76 without free barrage and extra range to keep out of harms way.
Su 76 changes are both right and bad. The Pen must go, but then again, you have given it extreme accuracy, which is already a problem with TDs and you have no made it even worse. It also hard- and pre-counters StuG now, at half the price.
**Panther **changes are bad. Armor must stay as it is. Its literally the only thing going for the Panther, but its hillarously ineffective and inefficient. The Panther is already a marginal unit, and due to how the armor works even mediums can reliably pen it. Now it doesnt have practical armor, it will just keep in the back repaired endlessly. Bravo. Also it does not need to become more of an overpriced stug overlapping in roles with higher rof, but it needs higher alpha damage of 200 to give it a character in Wehrs aresenal - a counter to Su 76 spam and prediums.
Also Su 85 is crazy good right now, it fires fast, pens everything, and cheap to boot. It needs to loose some of this, preferably RoF like the StuG. SU 76 can fill that role.
Hull down - no. Again a change nobody asked for. The ability is difficult to use as it is, so if these changes are in, tank should be able to hull down on their own.
Cons PPhsh. Again, not much of a problem, keep it as it is. It seems like as a nerf but actually its a buff since the unit is now good at ALL ranges. Tune the Con PPsh weapon profile if need be.
Stun Granades - again a problem that was never a problem, a change nobody asked for.
I fear the OKW Volksgrenadier incendiary grenade being locked behind a tech building can leave them seriously vulnerable in the early game in garrision heavy maps. I would opt for something that at least leaves them with a fair chance.
In line with the apparent wish to make them less powerful against defensive positions early on, I would suggest the following change instead:
No tech requirement to unlock incendiary grenades
Increase base cost to 35-40 or even 45 munitions. This will leave it as an option to clear a key garrison early on but it wouldn't be spamable. Players will have to choose very carefully when to use it.
Decrease cost to 30 munitions once the squad reaches vet1 or vet2. Alternatively the cost reduction could take place once a tech building has been constructed. This way the price increase mentioned above would not have an impact on the mid to late game.
BUGS
-Mines Riegel/M20. They completely break the engine and totally paralyze a vehicle.
-SturmTiger. Disblocking in 11CP (12CP AVRE, 13CP IS2/Tiger)
-SturmTiger. Can be abandoned and recaptured with full health.
-Valentine 12pop. When it has to be 8 like other vehicles
-BRIT 17pounds 14pop. When it has to be 10 like pak43
BALANCE. Why¡?¡
-SU85 Focused Sight Ability 5s. VS the axis that have spotting scope and blitz. Rake/JPIV does not have a penalty of vision with his camo and can attack by surprise the su85.
-KATY it has changes and NW (with supress) Wstuka do not have change. Why¡?¡
-HTflame does not need a setup so it makes it highly dangerous in urban maps. Why¡?¡
-Recently been suspended account for using cheats/hacks, and units are maintained as Valentine/HTinfrared that allow you to reveal units during the game. Guards and the UC are touched. But the HTflame does not. Why¡?¡
This. What are the Tiger armour/health stats vs this preliminary Panther?
Tiger has 300 front armor and 1040 health, higher rear armor
Live panther has 320 front and 800 health, 110 rear
Nu-panther has 260 front and 960 health, 90 rear
That's pretty bad. The current Panther's stats are gulp ... kind of historical accurate. I'm sorry but the proposed change is a big slap in the face to historical accuracy [Disclaimer] "Although the CoH team attempts to be as historical as possible when designing the game and it's mechanics, sometimes it is required to deviate slightly to produce fun and entertaining gameplay".
While reading up on the Panther vs Tiger in general I found out that Tiger crews were trained to face the enemy at an angle to mimmick sloping armour (which was effective and correct to a certain extent). Anyway it got me thinking, what if COH2 had more tank gameplay mechanics like that. But I guess RNG kind of fulfills that role.
Wehr infantry still struggles, and will struggle even more with the popcap nerfs. Consider a received accuracy buff of 3%-3% at BF 2 and BF 3, effecting Pios and Grens to help them stay on the field - Panzergrens receive this buff only when near tanks or armored vehicles.
Wehrmacht infantry are already very durable at vet 3. They don't need buffs. Additionally, wehrmacht is a faction built around team weapons and medium vehicles. You shouldn't be fighting allied infantry directly, you should be suppressing them and pummeling them with mediums (p4, ost, brumbar) or artillery (mortars, werfs).
Soviet sniper changes just make the game more pale. Increase its counters, nerf received accuracy to help counters, but keep it as its designed, a two man, durable Soviet squad.
Disagreed, soviet snipers durability is the problem. Making them a 1 man increases the amount counter play from other snipers, which advances your "increase tis counters".
Command Pz IV changes are unwarranted. The unit was never a problem and the changes simply make it pointless.
They are extremely powerful in team games. This unit singlehandedly makes any axis push 20% more durable. It also straight up mitigates allied indirect play, as it reduces casualties taken from indirect immensely.
Combined with hulldown you get literal 1500 health panthers and stugs with medium armor health.
Combined with vet3 pgren / ober spam, you have literally unstoppable infantry.
The **StuG ** RoF changes are in the right direction, but out of context - the StuG and mortars are what keep Wehr afloat, and you nerf both. If the StuGs RoF is nerfed, at least increase its armor to OST Pz IV level so that it could actually work as counter vs mediums. Because as opposed to whatever the patch notes lies about it, it does not have armor. None to speak of. Right now everything penetrates it, its basically a more expensive Su 76 without free barrage and extra range to keep out of harms way.
What you're failing to realize is that this patch is designed to take away crutch units, and spread that critch power amoungst other units. Wehrmacht in the proposed patch has a much more wide array of tool available to it. Right now as you mentioned, mortars + stugs are the only thing carrying it. With Panther buffs, you don't need to use only stugs!
Su 76 changes are both right and bad. The Pen must go, but then again, you have given it extreme accuracy, which is already a problem with TDs and you have no made it even worse. It also hard- and pre-counters StuG now, at half the price.
Its high penetration state already "pre counters" stugs, so what is changing here? The changes are purely for to mitigate the fact you can spam 4-5 of these things and need nothing else. Additionally, you should be building pak40s for su76 spam, not stugs.
**Panther **changes are bad. Armor must stay as it is. Its literally the only thing going for the Panther, but its hillarously ineffective and inefficient. The Panther is already a marginal unit, and due to how the armor works even mediums can reliably pen it. Now it doesnt have practical armor, it will just keep in the back repaired endlessly. Bravo. Also it does not need to become more of an overpriced stug overlapping in roles with higher rof, but it needs higher alpha damage of 200 to give it a character in Wehrs aresenal - a counter to Su 76 spam and prediums.
Disagreed, the higher health changes make the panther far more reliable. Right now I can't tell if my panther can take 4 shots, or 10. Now I can factor in a reliable 5-6 or so hits and with the increased offensive capabilties, actually do damage before retreating.
Also Su 85 is crazy good right now, it fires fast, pens everything, and cheap to boot. It needs to loose some of this, preferably RoF like the StuG. SU 76 can fill that role.
SU85s are not cheap compared to the rest of the soviet army and are a one trick pony.
They will be evem less of a problem for wehrmacht with the cheaper pak40 popcap and more reliable panther flanking. Su85 spam also falls apart to JU abilities, so i've never had a problem dealing with them.
Hull down - no. Again a change nobody asked for. The ability is difficult to use as it is, so if these changes are in, tank should be able to hull down on their own.
This ability is super easy to use and only real counter is indirect. In its current state, you can hull down a panther and it will out range and fire quicker then an SU85 while taking less damage. When you add a command panzer 4, you have a literal 1500 health panther with 65 range that can smoke itself out.
Stun Granades - again a problem that was never a problem, a change nobody asked for.
Stung grenades outperform regular grenades at the moment. Why throw a regular grenade when stun grenades do both the damage for a grenade and stun everything they hit for 3-4 seconds? The point of a stun grenade is to stun, not kill.
If the 222 is getting its price decreased, what about lowering the cost of the M20? 222 will hard counter a vehicle that costs an overpriced extra 140 mp (340>200)
What happened to the tommy medkit duration decrease? I was looking forward to them healing faster, currently its generally too long to feasibly group heal in-field and still maintain map control.
With the nerf to USF late game I'd like to see them reconsider Rifleman smoke. If they don't get to have a strong late game they could really use the early game boost, especially with the .50 getting nerfs. Besides that it still feels like USF lost a big part of their identity with the loss of smoke on rifles.
@SquishyMuffin I am still a fan of the idea to change Panther with Tiger to make it doc for Ostheer. So we can buff the Panther to a real tank-hunter and Tiger can be a larger Panzer IV with better AT like Comet (not like the op Pershing, meat grinder). The Tiger has less armor and can be easy counterd by PaKs and tank-hunters. Also it stays realistic... before Panther got mass-produced there where more Tigers 1942 and early 1943. Panther can become same mech as T34/85. Tiger can get a limit of max. 2 so you have to build other things instead. E.g.
@Widerstreit said: @CarusoUA The nerf of PTRS is one of the rare good changes. And you find it unacceptable? Why should they counter medium and heavy tanks? At that battle phase you get PaKs, tanks and multible abilities.
It becomes difficult to handle late-game OKW? Stop researching PTRS for penals, use a commander or... build tanks! Especially soviets have enough tools.
Dear Widerstreit,
thank you for your feedback.
As you may know that PTRS' were very useful against light and medium vehicles in world war II, ok, this is a game and some things can be unreal, but if PTRS' get the damage reduce they won't be so effective against light vehicles as before. About the late game. I know very well that penals with PTRS are very weak against OKW inf. I usually play with conscripts. How to play with conscripts with 2 ppsh against StG in the late game? You know that inf is the backbone of any army and if your opponent have the advantage of inf, it is very difficult to play.
@Eeere said:
If the 222 is getting its price decreased, what about lowering the cost of the M20? 222 will hard counter a vehicle that costs an overpriced extra 140 mp (340>200)
The m20 comes before the 222, it also already is hard countered by the 222 in a vehicle vs vehicle setting.
In reality the M20 posses enough utility it can deal with a 222 solo and destroy it in a combined arms fashion.
Eg. It can smoke to escape death. It can bait the 222 into the deployable mine (most powerful in game) by pretending to be "vulnerable" somewhere. It can decrew to give you a free bazooka squad to threaten destroying to 222 in exchange for the M20 hull (not squad). it can self repair after an engagement, meaning you can commit more units to combat while also repairing. Further, just like grenadiers, riflemen can snare light vehicles - preventing them from solo diving things. You can also commit the M20 to one side of the map, baiting the 222 to move away from werhmachts main formation allowing you to push on his main army with the rest of your rifles.
What happened to the tommy medkit duration decrease? I was looking forward to them healing faster, currently its generally too long to feasibly group heal in-field and still maintain map control.
They really don't need this. Given the heal is AOE and available anywhere, it gives brits the ability to hold ground like no other faction. A common brit + soviet tactic I use in 2v2 is to skip medics but grab healing for my conscripts from tommy squads. Quick rushing a soviet half track + brit healing gives immense healing + reinforce potential.
With the nerf to USF late game I'd like to see them reconsider Rifleman smoke. If they don't get to have a strong late game they could really use the early game boost, especially with the .50 getting nerfs. Besides that it still feels like USF lost a big part of their identity with the loss of smoke on rifles.
What nerf to USF late game? There are no changes to the primary Anti-infantry units (shermans, rifles, m8s). The .50 cal is just losing sprint. For AT everything is the same but Jacksons, and the changes don't decrease damage output by any measure - just losing 5 range.
With the nerf to USF late game I'd like to see them reconsider Rifleman smoke.
No, rifle smoke was broken as fuck. I took full advantage of the fact I could reduce my opponent's effective damage in half, negate snipers, save retreating squads / tanks and negate suppression all with a single 15 muni ability.
Not to mention the proliferation of smoke is still rampant in the faction and is one of the defining features of the faction. Every officer and RE has smoke, which in almost every situation one of these units are on the frontline.
-222's armor buff is welcome but reducing the manpower as well seems over the top.
Beside M20 is still 340 if not wrong and the same rationale wasn't applied. Imo 250 mp was fine.
Also light vehicule like this one could use a +20 hp buff at vet3 to survive more than 2 shots in the late game and reward player for keeping them.
-M20: could have been adjusted
-Pgrens: Maybe shrecks should be exclusive with grenades ? So AI infantry could force them out up close considering they would be AT specialist. The same way you want AT penals to loose to pgrens.
-SU-76: Quid on spending ammo for Barrage?
-Centaur: what about removing Strafing Fire? It's a bit cheesy, not that fun to use
Soviet Sniper: what makes it unique compare to other snipers now ? Range?
If the 222 is getting its price decreased, what about lowering the cost of the M20? 222 will hard counter a vehicle that costs an overpriced extra 140 mp (340>200)
The m20 comes before the 222, it also already is hard countered by the 222 in a vehicle vs vehicle setting.
In reality the M20 posses enough utility it can deal with a 222 solo and destroy it in a combined arms fashion.
Eg. It can smoke to escape death. It can bait the 222 into the deployable mine (most powerful in game) by pretending to be "vulnerable" somewhere. It can decrew to give you a free bazooka squad to threaten destroying to 222 in exchange for the M20 hull (not squad). it can self repair after an engagement, meaning you can commit more units to combat while also repairing. Further, just like grenadiers, riflemen can snare light vehicles - preventing them from solo diving things. You can also commit the M20 to one side of the map, baiting the 222 to move away from werhmachts main formation allowing you to push on his main army with the rest of your rifles.
What happened to the tommy medkit duration decrease? I was looking forward to them healing faster, currently its generally too long to feasibly group heal in-field and still maintain map control.
They really don't need this. Given the heal is AOE and available anywhere, it gives brits the ability to hold ground like no other faction. A common brit + soviet tactic I use in 2v2 is to skip medics but grab healing for my conscripts from tommy squads. Quick rushing a soviet half track + brit healing gives immense healing + reinforce potential.
With the nerf to USF late game I'd like to see them reconsider Rifleman smoke. If they don't get to have a strong late game they could really use the early game boost, especially with the .50 getting nerfs. Besides that it still feels like USF lost a big part of their identity with the loss of smoke on rifles.
What nerf to USF late game? There are no changes to the primary Anti-infantry units (shermans, rifles, m8s). The .50 cal is just losing sprint. For AT everything is the same but Jacksons, and the changes don't decrease damage output by any measure - just losing 5 range.
With the nerf to USF late game I'd like to see them reconsider Rifleman smoke.
No, rifle smoke was broken as fuck. I took full advantage of the fact I could reduce my opponent's effective damage in half, negate snipers, save retreating squads / tanks and negate suppression all with a single 15 muni ability.
Not to mention the proliferation of smoke is still rampant in the faction and is one of the defining features of the faction. Every officer and RE has smoke, which in almost every situation one of these units are on the frontline.
If the 222 is getting its price decreased, what about lowering the cost of the M20? 222 will hard counter a vehicle that costs an overpriced extra 140 mp (340>200)
The m20 comes before the 222, it also already is hard countered by the 222 in a vehicle vs vehicle setting.
A whole 60 seconds earlier.
In reality the M20 posses enough utility it can deal with a 222 solo and destroy it in a combined arms fashion.
Eg. It can smoke to escape death. It can bait the 222 into the deployable mine (most powerful in game) by pretending to be "vulnerable" somewhere. It can decrew to give you a free bazooka squad to threaten destroying to 222 in exchange for the M20 hull (not squad). it can self repair after an engagement, meaning you can commit more units to combat while also repairing. Further, just like grenadiers, riflemen can snare light vehicles - preventing them from solo diving things. You can also commit the M20 to one side of the map, baiting the 222 to move away from werhmachts main formation allowing you to push on his main army with the rest of your rifles.
Placing a mine does not equal to destroying anything solo, 222 will wreck M20 before zookas become threatening to its massive for this stage of the game hp.
What nerf to USF late game? There are no changes to the primary Anti-infantry units (shermans, rifles, m8s). The .50 cal is just losing sprint. For AT everything is the same but Jacksons, and the changes don't decrease damage output by any measure - just losing 5 range.
Jackson nerf is pretty massive, shermans were not carrying games.
@CarusoUA Every kind of Panzerbüchse (AT-rifels) were out-dated before war stated. Soviets had nothing for their infantry, so they mass-produced PTRSs and other models. Even the RPG40 and 43 were crap, cheap copies of german Wurfmine, which aso was crap. Even with a perfect hit (suicide 10 meters before the target, 90° hit onto the armor) it wasn't possible to pen the front of StuG3 F and G, because it only can beat 75mm of steal (e.g. Faust30 pens 200mm and Faust100 220mm). The AT-rifels were ok versus light/medium tanks, it was passible to pen 30-40mm of steal at 100 meters. But versus real vehicles you can only try to hit scopes etc. (we still have the ability for British-Sniper and Gards).
They stay still effective versus light vehicles... why? Because they PEN! Play like a Soviet and build T34s, that is how to counter OKW infanty. They have bad range for their Faust and Püppchen sometimes are one-shots, then steal them and destoy Panthers with it. Sure, it is harder than fighting Ostheer. ^^
We both know its enough time and shock value to deal with that sniper and force retreats on flanks. You are also assuming a 222 is being rushed, when it is far more likley a 222 is built in response to a m20 rather - extending the window of opportunity.
Placing a mine does not equal to destroying anything solo, 222 will wreck M20 before zookas become threatening to its massive for this stage of the game hp.
Baiting 222s into the m20 mine, infantry/heavy cav mines, or a vet 1 rifle snare then decrewing to kill it with a zooks is a standard play for USF for the m20 vs 222 match up. Given your very extensive history as a player / forum warrioring in the coh2, you already know creating threat is just as important as killing something.
Jackson nerf is pretty massive, shermans were not carrying games.
Its hardly a nerf given the role of the unit, destroying mediums. A -5 range nerf does not reduce the damage output, and still allows it to out range mediums. The sighting reduction isn't really a nerf given units with 60 range are being spotted for anyway, a 55 range unit will be no worse off.
Jacksons in the proposed form will still carry tank fights. They just can't go around solo sniping things as easily.
shermans were not carrying games.
Shermans do carry games when your opponents lynch pin is infantry. Your jackson spam does not compete with rakten,ober & volks spam.
@Troyd lol... M24 would destroy the 222 in reality? The 2-cm-KwK 30 L/55 was able to pen the M24 at 500 meters. The And the .50mg? Sure it is a good gun, but the 222 would simply outrange it.
Comments
Side comment : When can we try out the pre-patch for this?
(Patch candidate)
In recent, i plan to upgrade my UK 2v2 to lv.17
I found out most of the time, there is always an opponent build 88mm + 105mm to counter british Players
Even though I have T3 and 2 25 pound howitzer, still can not destroy a 88mm or 105mm at once. Not mention sexton has very short range to counter those things.
normally, they just build bunker + MG + 88mm + 105mm and then go T4 or king tiger. Probably sometimes with stug III or jagder panzer IV.
I totally have no efficient strategy to handle this situation. I suggest that 88mm and 105mm should be cost more MP and fuel. Also please buff british long range fire power such as sexton. Over all, 88mm and 105mm has been abuse by axis players in 2v2 especially against double UK.
8 CP, 450 MP and 450 fuel is too cheap and too powerful. Please nerf them or buff UK sexton.
dude STUG Has
560 HP, 140 Frontal armor Not 480
STUG has 560 armor, so it is almost same as P4 (p4 has 640 hp)
and it has 50 range not 55
> @firestone said:
> Rifleman performance, which is the backbone of usf, is not very good for price.
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> What?
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> Vetted Riflemen with BARs are the gold standard of all Coh2 infantry.
vetted riflemen with BARs needs 280 manpowers and 28 reinforce + 120 munitions + weapon rack upgrades. it needs almost 1.5~1.6 times mucher price than other factions's frontline infantry(except brits). 1919s, needs 70 munitions + command abillity + 3cp, but they has only 70% spec of gren's mg42. is it fare? I play all factions and in the top 100 on a 1v1 , but I have never felt that USF riflemen is stronger than other factions's frontline infantry. They have a low evasion bonus, even though they are units that are forced CQBs(compare to strumpioniers. riflemen's evasion bonus is much lower than them.). And the cost is never reasonable. The USF has only a riflemen for frontline infantry in late games, but it has terrible consequences in consumption because of the reinforcement costs, low evasion, and the limit of close-up infantry. This is exactly same reason that Panzer Grenadiers is hard to use later in the game. Wehr players always complain about the Panzer Grenadiers are underpowered, and they tend to ovetestimate Riflemem, but at least considering the munition cost, which was never cheap and considering their price, it is unreliable.
Ost and West:
Panther range from 50 to 55.
StuG range stays 50.
Tiger 1 and 2 range from 45 to 50, Vet to 55.
Soviets:
SU85 range stays 60.
SU76 range from 60 to 55.
US:
Jackson range stays 60.
Pershing range 45 to 50, Vet 55.
Brits:
Firefly range from 60 to 55.
Also the damage of ALL battletanks (which only have one shell tpye) versus infantry need some standards. E. g. Panzer 4 or Chromewell has good mix. The idea is to reduce the AI potential of T34, Tiger (is also decent now) , Pershing, Comet etc. The main differences should be range, pen and AT performance.
I have not enough time now to explain it more. Maybe I will make a small mod to show my ideas. But it's exam time.
> So much for "better frontal protection than a Tiger"
> I really don't think the armor and HP changes on the Panther are smart, the last thing it needs is longer repair times.
>
This. What are the Tiger armour/health stats vs this preliminary Panther?
Tiger has 300 front armor and 1040 health, higher rear armor
Live panther has 320 front and 800 health, 110 rear
Nu-panther has 260 front and 960 health, 90 rear
Doesn't the Panther get penned by anything from the rear anyway? What's the point of further reducing its rear armor?
So - I want to discuss the patch in a different way than just how the changes will impact the game. Namely - how they're written. This is going to sound super pedantic and I appreciate that writing or compiling patch notes is absolutely the worst - but frankly this is a bit silly. Without wanting to demean the people who put effort in to these notes, the completed notes are barely usable.
bolded by me - bombs don't conduct damage. I don't even know what word the writer was thinking of that got mixed up with conducting. Not a huge deal, but will be part of a running theme later.
What does this mean? How does this impact unit/ability behavior? What does it actually do? This line imparts no information to the average user - which is bad patch note writing. It may as well be in Latin.
Incidentally I hate this change but that's because I'm a massive sucker for Hull Down. Again, vague notes. Was the range buff an offensive buff or defensive buff? It affects the main gun so one assumes offensive, but then range on TDs and ATGs is primarily a defensive stat - to keep the unit out of danger. Needs clarification.
This entire section is guilty and actually pisses me off. It isn't a change log, it's a factoid log. The new pop on any given unit is meaningless unless you can see what it was before the change. True, people can boot up the game and see the change themselves, or open the files. But then - why bother with the notes at all? Just write "populations have changed" and leave it at that.
Strong what? Nazi tendencies? Jawline? Smell? This seems like nitpicking but you're trying to justify nerfing one of the only crutches keeping Wehrmacht in the mid to late game and this error just looks like someone wanted three reasons to nerf the StuG but could only come up with two.
See - this is how you write a popcap change, you have the before and the after. But it then raises the question - why is it listed here instead of in the massive list of popcap changes that we already had? Why was there a long list of popcap changes when a lot of those units get entries that could include the change anyway? This is extremely inconsistent - and strongly suggests these patch notes were submitted by multiple different people with differing levels of commitment to writing usable patch notes - with the results being all copied and pasted warts and all in to one big forum post. If you want to give the impression you're just kicking shit out the door without any QA, this is how you do it.
It's Boys. That's just me being an asshole though.
The .50 cal what now? See - here's where just picking the wrong word starts to become confusing. Am I having a stroke? Is it supposed to be "MG" or it supposed to be "and mortar"? The difference might not seem like a lot, but it's about imparting accurate information so we know why changes are being done and can effectively measure their success.
These patch notes just aren't professional because they leave plenty of room for confusion. I'm not that guy who says "hurr durr misspelling therefore patch invalid" - there's still plenty I'm reserving judgement on until the patch is made public and will discuss whether the notes impart the information or not. But that's the thing. The patch notes are a communication tool, and in a lot of circumstances they just aren't communicating.
Edit: speaking of communication what gives with ctrl + B not bolding junk?
Dear developers of Relic!
We are really appreciate you for your work on the game!
We understand that you are making changes on the base of the feedbacks of the community.
From my part I represent Ukrainian community and I have to say on behalf of it that making soviets poorer is awful mistake, in particular:
Conscript PPSh - it is very important to keep 3 ppsh per squad. In the late game it is very difficult to handle with okw troops with StGs.
Deflection damage of PTRS reduced from 20 to 10 - it is unacceptable!
Other changes are not so important like these ones.
Pls, think very hard about it.
Best regards,
Ukrainian community representative
Anton
It becomes difficult to handle late-game OKW? Stop researching PTRS for penals, use a commander or... build tanks! Especially soviets have enough tools.
The global Mortar nerfs I like. Though I guess it would be better to nerf the accuracy rather than the RoF, since sudden mortar wipes and consistent damage without bleed are a problem. It supposed to be a dislocation tool rather than a steady bleed tool. Which will remain the same with mortar spam.
Wehr infantry still struggles, and will struggle even more with the popcap nerfs. Consider a received accuracy buff of 3%-3% at BF 2 and BF 3, effecting Pios and Grens to help them stay on the field - Panzergrens receive this buff only when near tanks or armored vehicles.
Soviet sniper changes just make the game more pale. Increase its counters, nerf received accuracy to help counters, but keep it as its designed, a two man, durable Soviet squad.
Command Pz IV changes are unwarranted. The unit was never a problem and the changes simply make it pointless.
The **StuG ** RoF changes are in the right direction, but out of context - the StuG and mortars are what keep Wehr afloat, and you nerf both. If the StuGs RoF is nerfed, at least increase its armor to OST Pz IV level so that it could actually work as counter vs mediums. Because as opposed to whatever the patch notes lies about it, it does not have armor. None to speak of. Right now everything penetrates it, its basically a more expensive Su 76 without free barrage and extra range to keep out of harms way.
Su 76 changes are both right and bad. The Pen must go, but then again, you have given it extreme accuracy, which is already a problem with TDs and you have no made it even worse. It also hard- and pre-counters StuG now, at half the price.
**Panther **changes are bad. Armor must stay as it is. Its literally the only thing going for the Panther, but its hillarously ineffective and inefficient. The Panther is already a marginal unit, and due to how the armor works even mediums can reliably pen it. Now it doesnt have practical armor, it will just keep in the back repaired endlessly. Bravo. Also it does not need to become more of an overpriced stug overlapping in roles with higher rof, but it needs higher alpha damage of 200 to give it a character in Wehrs aresenal - a counter to Su 76 spam and prediums.
Also Su 85 is crazy good right now, it fires fast, pens everything, and cheap to boot. It needs to loose some of this, preferably RoF like the StuG. SU 76 can fill that role.
Hull down - no. Again a change nobody asked for. The ability is difficult to use as it is, so if these changes are in, tank should be able to hull down on their own.
Cons PPhsh. Again, not much of a problem, keep it as it is. It seems like as a nerf but actually its a buff since the unit is now good at ALL ranges. Tune the Con PPsh weapon profile if need be.
Stun Granades - again a problem that was never a problem, a change nobody asked for.
I fear the OKW Volksgrenadier incendiary grenade being locked behind a tech building can leave them seriously vulnerable in the early game in garrision heavy maps. I would opt for something that at least leaves them with a fair chance.
In line with the apparent wish to make them less powerful against defensive positions early on, I would suggest the following change instead:
BUGS
-Mines Riegel/M20. They completely break the engine and totally paralyze a vehicle.
-SturmTiger. Disblocking in 11CP (12CP AVRE, 13CP IS2/Tiger)
-SturmTiger. Can be abandoned and recaptured with full health.
-Valentine 12pop. When it has to be 8 like other vehicles
-BRIT 17pounds 14pop. When it has to be 10 like pak43
BALANCE. Why¡?¡
-SU85 Focused Sight Ability 5s. VS the axis that have spotting scope and blitz. Rake/JPIV does not have a penalty of vision with his camo and can attack by surprise the su85.
-KATY it has changes and NW (with supress) Wstuka do not have change. Why¡?¡
-HTflame does not need a setup so it makes it highly dangerous in urban maps. Why¡?¡
-Recently been suspended account for using cheats/hacks, and units are maintained as Valentine/HTinfrared that allow you to reveal units during the game. Guards and the UC are touched. But the HTflame does not. Why¡?¡
That's pretty bad. The current Panther's stats are gulp ... kind of historical accurate. I'm sorry but the proposed change is a big slap in the face to historical accuracy [Disclaimer] "Although the CoH team attempts to be as historical as possible when designing the game and it's mechanics, sometimes it is required to deviate slightly to produce fun and entertaining gameplay".
While reading up on the Panther vs Tiger in general I found out that Tiger crews were trained to face the enemy at an angle to mimmick sloping armour (which was effective and correct to a certain extent). Anyway it got me thinking, what if COH2 had more tank gameplay mechanics like that. But I guess RNG kind of fulfills that role.
@Kurfürst
Wehrmacht infantry are already very durable at vet 3. They don't need buffs. Additionally, wehrmacht is a faction built around team weapons and medium vehicles. You shouldn't be fighting allied infantry directly, you should be suppressing them and pummeling them with mediums (p4, ost, brumbar) or artillery (mortars, werfs).
Disagreed, soviet snipers durability is the problem. Making them a 1 man increases the amount counter play from other snipers, which advances your "increase tis counters".
They are extremely powerful in team games. This unit singlehandedly makes any axis push 20% more durable. It also straight up mitigates allied indirect play, as it reduces casualties taken from indirect immensely.
Combined with hulldown you get literal 1500 health panthers and stugs with medium armor health.
Combined with vet3 pgren / ober spam, you have literally unstoppable infantry.
What you're failing to realize is that this patch is designed to take away crutch units, and spread that critch power amoungst other units. Wehrmacht in the proposed patch has a much more wide array of tool available to it. Right now as you mentioned, mortars + stugs are the only thing carrying it. With Panther buffs, you don't need to use only stugs!
Its high penetration state already "pre counters" stugs, so what is changing here? The changes are purely for to mitigate the fact you can spam 4-5 of these things and need nothing else. Additionally, you should be building pak40s for su76 spam, not stugs.
Disagreed, the higher health changes make the panther far more reliable. Right now I can't tell if my panther can take 4 shots, or 10. Now I can factor in a reliable 5-6 or so hits and with the increased offensive capabilties, actually do damage before retreating.
SU85s are not cheap compared to the rest of the soviet army and are a one trick pony.
They will be evem less of a problem for wehrmacht with the cheaper pak40 popcap and more reliable panther flanking. Su85 spam also falls apart to JU abilities, so i've never had a problem dealing with them.
This ability is super easy to use and only real counter is indirect. In its current state, you can hull down a panther and it will out range and fire quicker then an SU85 while taking less damage. When you add a command panzer 4, you have a literal 1500 health panther with 65 range that can smoke itself out.
Stung grenades outperform regular grenades at the moment. Why throw a regular grenade when stun grenades do both the damage for a grenade and stun everything they hit for 3-4 seconds? The point of a stun grenade is to stun, not kill.
If the 222 is getting its price decreased, what about lowering the cost of the M20? 222 will hard counter a vehicle that costs an overpriced extra 140 mp (340>200)
What happened to the tommy medkit duration decrease? I was looking forward to them healing faster, currently its generally too long to feasibly group heal in-field and still maintain map control.
With the nerf to USF late game I'd like to see them reconsider Rifleman smoke. If they don't get to have a strong late game they could really use the early game boost, especially with the .50 getting nerfs. Besides that it still feels like USF lost a big part of their identity with the loss of smoke on rifles.
@SquishyMuffin I am still a fan of the idea to change Panther with Tiger to make it doc for Ostheer. So we can buff the Panther to a real tank-hunter and Tiger can be a larger Panzer IV with better AT like Comet (not like the op Pershing, meat grinder). The Tiger has less armor and can be easy counterd by PaKs and tank-hunters. Also it stays realistic... before Panther got mass-produced there where more Tigers 1942 and early 1943. Panther can become same mech as T34/85. Tiger can get a limit of max. 2 so you have to build other things instead. E.g.
Dear Widerstreit,
thank you for your feedback.
As you may know that PTRS' were very useful against light and medium vehicles in world war II, ok, this is a game and some things can be unreal, but if PTRS' get the damage reduce they won't be so effective against light vehicles as before. About the late game. I know very well that penals with PTRS are very weak against OKW inf. I usually play with conscripts. How to play with conscripts with 2 ppsh against StG in the late game? You know that inf is the backbone of any army and if your opponent have the advantage of inf, it is very difficult to play.
The m20 comes before the 222, it also already is hard countered by the 222 in a vehicle vs vehicle setting.
In reality the M20 posses enough utility it can deal with a 222 solo and destroy it in a combined arms fashion.
Eg. It can smoke to escape death. It can bait the 222 into the deployable mine (most powerful in game) by pretending to be "vulnerable" somewhere. It can decrew to give you a free bazooka squad to threaten destroying to 222 in exchange for the M20 hull (not squad). it can self repair after an engagement, meaning you can commit more units to combat while also repairing. Further, just like grenadiers, riflemen can snare light vehicles - preventing them from solo diving things. You can also commit the M20 to one side of the map, baiting the 222 to move away from werhmachts main formation allowing you to push on his main army with the rest of your rifles.
They really don't need this. Given the heal is AOE and available anywhere, it gives brits the ability to hold ground like no other faction. A common brit + soviet tactic I use in 2v2 is to skip medics but grab healing for my conscripts from tommy squads. Quick rushing a soviet half track + brit healing gives immense healing + reinforce potential.
What nerf to USF late game? There are no changes to the primary Anti-infantry units (shermans, rifles, m8s). The .50 cal is just losing sprint. For AT everything is the same but Jacksons, and the changes don't decrease damage output by any measure - just losing 5 range.
No, rifle smoke was broken as fuck. I took full advantage of the fact I could reduce my opponent's effective damage in half, negate snipers, save retreating squads / tanks and negate suppression all with a single 15 muni ability.
Not to mention the proliferation of smoke is still rampant in the faction and is one of the defining features of the faction. Every officer and RE has smoke, which in almost every situation one of these units are on the frontline.
-222's armor buff is welcome but reducing the manpower as well seems over the top.
Beside M20 is still 340 if not wrong and the same rationale wasn't applied. Imo 250 mp was fine.
Also light vehicule like this one could use a +20 hp buff at vet3 to survive more than 2 shots in the late game and reward player for keeping them.
-M20: could have been adjusted
-Pgrens: Maybe shrecks should be exclusive with grenades ? So AI infantry could force them out up close considering they would be AT specialist. The same way you want AT penals to loose to pgrens.
-SU-76: Quid on spending ammo for Barrage?
-Centaur: what about removing Strafing Fire? It's a bit cheesy, not that fun to use
Soviet Sniper: what makes it unique compare to other snipers now ? Range?
@Eeere
The m20 comes before the 222, it also already is hard countered by the 222 in a vehicle vs vehicle setting.
In reality the M20 posses enough utility it can deal with a 222 solo and destroy it in a combined arms fashion.
Eg. It can smoke to escape death. It can bait the 222 into the deployable mine (most powerful in game) by pretending to be "vulnerable" somewhere. It can decrew to give you a free bazooka squad to threaten destroying to 222 in exchange for the M20 hull (not squad). it can self repair after an engagement, meaning you can commit more units to combat while also repairing. Further, just like grenadiers, riflemen can snare light vehicles - preventing them from solo diving things. You can also commit the M20 to one side of the map, baiting the 222 to move away from werhmachts main formation allowing you to push on his main army with the rest of your rifles.
They really don't need this. Given the heal is AOE and available anywhere, it gives brits the ability to hold ground like no other faction. A common brit + soviet tactic I use in 2v2 is to skip medics but grab healing for my conscripts from tommy squads. Quick rushing a soviet half track + brit healing gives immense healing + reinforce potential.
What nerf to USF late game? There are no changes to the primary Anti-infantry units (shermans, rifles, m8s). The .50 cal is just losing sprint. For AT everything is the same but Jacksons, and the changes don't decrease damage output by any measure - just losing 5 range.
No, rifle smoke was broken as fuck. I took full advantage of the fact I could reduce my opponent's effective damage in half, negate snipers, save retreating squads / tanks and negate suppression all with a single 15 muni ability.
Not to mention the proliferation of smoke is still rampant in the faction and is one of the defining features of the faction. Every officer and RE has smoke, which in almost every situation one of these units are on the frontline.
A whole 60 seconds earlier.
Placing a mine does not equal to destroying anything solo, 222 will wreck M20 before zookas become threatening to its massive for this stage of the game hp.
Jackson nerf is pretty massive, shermans were not carrying games.
@CarusoUA Every kind of Panzerbüchse (AT-rifels) were out-dated before war stated. Soviets had nothing for their infantry, so they mass-produced PTRSs and other models. Even the RPG40 and 43 were crap, cheap copies of german Wurfmine, which aso was crap. Even with a perfect hit (suicide 10 meters before the target, 90° hit onto the armor) it wasn't possible to pen the front of StuG3 F and G, because it only can beat 75mm of steal (e.g. Faust30 pens 200mm and Faust100 220mm). The AT-rifels were ok versus light/medium tanks, it was passible to pen 30-40mm of steal at 100 meters. But versus real vehicles you can only try to hit scopes etc. (we still have the ability for British-Sniper and Gards).
They stay still effective versus light vehicles... why? Because they PEN! Play like a Soviet and build T34s, that is how to counter OKW infanty. They have bad range for their Faust and Püppchen sometimes are one-shots, then steal them and destoy Panthers with it. Sure, it is harder than fighting Ostheer. ^^
@Katitof
We both know its enough time and shock value to deal with that sniper and force retreats on flanks. You are also assuming a 222 is being rushed, when it is far more likley a 222 is built in response to a m20 rather - extending the window of opportunity.
Baiting 222s into the m20 mine, infantry/heavy cav mines, or a vet 1 rifle snare then decrewing to kill it with a zooks is a standard play for USF for the m20 vs 222 match up. Given your very extensive history as a player / forum warrioring in the coh2, you already know creating threat is just as important as killing something.
Its hardly a nerf given the role of the unit, destroying mediums. A -5 range nerf does not reduce the damage output, and still allows it to out range mediums. The sighting reduction isn't really a nerf given units with 60 range are being spotted for anyway, a 55 range unit will be no worse off.
Jacksons in the proposed form will still carry tank fights. They just can't go around solo sniping things as easily.
Shermans do carry games when your opponents lynch pin is infantry. Your jackson spam does not compete with rakten,ober & volks spam.
@Troyd lol... M24 would destroy the 222 in reality? The 2-cm-KwK 30 L/55 was able to pen the M24 at 500 meters. The And the .50mg? Sure it is a good gun, but the 222 would simply outrange it.