Elite troops/Tiger ace : then and now

#1
6 months ago

do you know what i think ruined this doctrine? there are two things.

1) you could apply vet to your ally's units, meaning boosted 5 star king tigers were possible

2) the tiger ace was OP

i feel like the current state of this doctrine is pretty bad really. it was last changed in the patch where the devs were like "how many doctrines can we put stormtroopers into?" and i honestly think for the worse, partly because it makes breakthrough/stormtroopers doctrine less unique, but also because it gives this doctrine like, nothing at all.

originally this doctrine's playstyle revolved around the smallest core of elite troops any doctrine could roll with. perhaps a vet 3 mg42 right out of the door - but it was balanced by the fact that this would delay your AT beyond 4-6 minutes because it took up fuel. this was the doctrine's core gameplay mechanic, essentially delaying tanks and AT by a minute or two to get some elite troops out, so you can see the glaringly obvious counters you could rush to for this doc. let's just ignore the tiger ace because it's not really the interesting part of this doc, it's a hail mary.

what was veterancy for fuel and MP replaced by? stormtroopers. yes, i get that they're "the elite troops" but the point of this doctrine wasn't to be an infiltration doctrine. again, this completely changed the feel of the doctrine and took away the only thing that made it unique. it's just the goofy stormtroopers doctrine that cuts off your fuel now.

i think if they bought back veterancy in a future patch there are some easy ways of balancing it that would return this doctrine to it's original feel

1) make it cost 60 munitions 15 fuel rather than 150mp 15 fuel. 60 munitions to a wehr player is like gold dust early game, since deploying it would delay mg34/g43 and also bunkers, as well as the 15 fuel delay to stage 2 if the ability is used early game

2) make it so you can only use it on your own troops so you can't use 2 elite troops players to cheese a king tiger to 5 veterancy

3) possibly make it so that it can only be used a few times, or only be used on infantry

Comments

  • #2
    6 months ago

    honestly, they could just remove the tiger ace from this doctrine entirely and give it something early game like ambush camouflage or just a tiger that can get higher than 3 veterancy like OKW

  • #3
    6 months ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 274

    @Osttruppen I'd like to make a couple of points here.

    1) You could have made all these posts on one thread instead of five - maybe calling it "Osttruppen's Thoughts/Ideas/Complaints". A separate thread for each post seems like a bit of overkill.

    2) You are right about the Elite Troops doctrine; it doesn't seem very elite apart from the Tiger Ace. If it were up to me, I would remove the Stun Grenades & the G43 upgrade and replace them with Spotting Scopes & Tactical Movement. These two abilities seem much more appropriate for Elite Troops.

    I like the idea of being able to make one unit truly elite by giving it five-star veterancy. This could be done by replacing the Tiger Ace with an Elite Unit upgrade ability that gives a single three-star unit 2 additional levels of veterancy. It would still have to gain the experience needed to become a five-star unit and resources would diminish by increments for each of the extra levels it achieved. Additional abilities/upgrades could even be attached to one of the extra veterancy levels (e.g. an extra man for infantry units/stun shots for tanks/Panzer speed for StuG's, etc.).

    The value of this version is that the player could choose which unit to make elite and it wouldn't be limited to a one-off like the Tiger Ace. By dropping the Command Points to 10 or 11, a player could use this earlier in the game, when it could really make a difference, and it could be used on infantry as well as vehicles. This version provides a lot more flexibility than a single buffed Tiger which once it's gone is gone for good.

    Also, this version would make Stormtroopers a more viable unit. Early on, a five-star Stormtrooper unit would be very difficult to defeat. The opposition would have to devote a lot of resources to fighting just one unit, leaving the rest of your forces free to inflict damage elsewhere.

    Unfortunately, this idea isn't bland enough to ever be given consideration by the developers so, most likely it will never see the light of day.

  • #4
    6 months ago

    @PanzerFutz considering they put in 5 man squads for wehr anything can happen. perhaps if it was a similar upgrade to the veteran sergeant but with 1 star of veterency rather than an extra model

  • #5
    6 months ago

    The reason why the ability to give a unit veterancy was removed was because it was overpowered.
    In the very early game, using the veterancy ability would severely tilt the game in favor of the Wehr player. In any remotely competitive match, this would be frustrating for the allied player and resulted in horrible mismatches.

  • #6
    6 months ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549

    you would have probably wasted more than 1k fuel on a king tiger if you wanted it at vet 5 though, as it didnt gave 1 lvl of veterancy but a raw amount, the exact to make werh infantry get vet 3, the skill wasnt removed because it was overpowered, but because they removed every skill that changued the veterancy/resources income that wasnt punishing for the player by the fact that the enemy could make it useless (mg from a stug taking down fuel lend lease from soviets) or could make you lose everything if the enemy pushes at the right time (CAS and LAS airdrop supply).

    And a vet 5 king tiger that costs who knows how much manpower and 1300 fuel its not worth the price.

    The tiger ace was always garbage by the fact it was an all or nothing skill, it implies so much risks and punishes the player for something that, after being lost, means you have a commander with 4 skills, and since on the current state of the game, if somebody wants something dead at all cost, it will die, something you dont want as the tiger sucks the life of the player until it gets removed, making the resource situation impossible to sustain unless you win on that moment. The tiger Ace is surely a force to recon with, but its not worth the price, specially now that it even costs fuel, making it useless even for comebacks.

    It wasnt much more than a meme commander since the nerfs it got way before the removal of the advanced training, and panzer tactician made it be usable as it is today, but even back then vanguard or spearhead would be much better doctrines.

    Changues like that one and the removal of soviet industry are the ones that until this day on my opinion were the worse.

  • #7
    6 months ago
    Elite troops could be used on volks to make them able to self heal off the cuff so there was that too...
  • #8
    6 months ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549

    @thedarkarmadillo dijo:
    Elite troops could be used on volks to make them able to self heal off the cuff so there was that too...

    yeah, but those also were ~320 manpower and 30 fuel volks, thats not really cheap.

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