[USF] [any] Make the Comet tank more of choice again

#1
7 months ago
mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 231
edited September 2018 in Balance Feedback

I know much focus its on the commander revamp right now, chich i really like what they bring there and think it will be gr8 once released.
However, i wanted to discuss The Comet tank thats been left out in the cold pretty much latly by taking nerf after nerf without any really compensation, making it a pretty lackluster and ineffective tank at the moment.

If we break down some of the needed nerf we can agree on thats been needed i would say those are:

  1. Population cost increased from 16 to 18
  2. Moving accuracy from 0.75 to 0.5
  3. Rear armour reduced from 130 to 110
  4. Range of Smoke Shell/White Phosphorus reduced from 80 to 45
  5. White Phosphorus will no longer finish off infantry models, bringing its performance in-line with other White-phosphorus abilities

I think those wear the necesarry changes it needed. But here are some changes that they could left untouched and why:

  1. "Reduce rotation rate from 36 to 32 to prevent crush". This made the Tank a bit buggy in term of commanding it, im sure it is something wrong with the stearingmechanics on this one. If you try commanding the Cromwell, which recived the same changes, you can certainly feel the different. I lost more comets that stops and rotating all of the suddenly than in actually battle since this change was made.
    Fix: Bring back the rotation rate to prevent it from start spinning around and give it medium/light crush instead. "bring back the turrent rotate to 40 again along with that"

  2. "Main gun range from 50 to 45". No need for, you have Panther, jagdpanzer4, Tiger all not bollow 50 in range. Since all those axis tanks in favour of penetraion over the Comet, and panther and tiger healthwise, i dont see the reason it was necussary. It already got its scatter increased from 3.2 to 6.4, horizontal scatter from 6 to 7.5, which are the most reason why its so bad on killing inf. Dont forget that both panther variant now have the best coaxial/hull mg in the game while the comet has the worst..
    Fix: Bring back the range to 50 and bring back the max distance scatter to 4.2 again. It will bring it more in line with the churchills and other late game tanks in term of effectiveness on inf and cost.

On top of this the war speed ability has been rendless pretty much useless also. I would rather see that being bring back to +35 again and for a cost like the blitzkrig. I rather see this changes being done than just "drop the price" of it. It cost 185 fuel and should be more effective than it is right now i think.

Agree? Thx

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Comments

  • #2
    7 months ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,979
    edited September 2018

    I dont agree. It was ridiculous before and Id rather keep it frying in hell for the sins of its the past than facing another comet dominance era.

  • #3
    7 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,573
    edited September 2018

    @Hingie said:
    I dont agree. It was ridiculous before and Id rather keep it frying in hell for the sins of its the past than facing another comet dominance era.

    Great logic you have there!

    Remember March deployment patch?
    The one that made ost so powerful that average players were getting 50+ win streaks and top players got 100+ win streaks without even trying?

    Lets never ever give any kind of buff for ost infantry ever for that time, regardless of how bad state they will end up in in the future.

    They got to suffer for their sins after all.

  • #4
    7 months ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,979

    @Katitof said:
    Great logic you have there!

    If theres one - lets call you person, lest I get reprimanded again for telling your true nature - on the forum that is bereft of the right to invoke logic in any way its you. Remember the USSU-85 with warp speed reverse, driving backwards as fast as Pz IVs fowards? You defended that. Great logic there.

    Or the KV-8 incinerating entire armies at a time while being durable because max pen of guns back there was 170 unless on the Pak 43 or Elefant? You defended that ("just use a tank!"), too.

    Or 1 CP Shocks and Guards, where you spewed forth nonsense about "adapting".

    Or Sniper + Clowncar combos.

    Or the old Comet for that matter.

    My memory of your partisanry and your subsequent denials of it reach back far in time, so indulge me, when did you ever use logic?

    You operate as much on logic as a lvl 20 barbarian/raging berserker when in 15th round of rage, so by all means, dont bring it up in this conversation.

    And you know full well what I mean. Theres no middle ground in balancing this game. Its always overbuff or overnerf, mostly the former followed by the latter, very few cases being the exception. So yes, I'd very much see it down and broken than up on high again as it used to be, for it was about as broken as the ISU-152 of yore. Which you, too, defended with arguments about it being only good against infantry, hence it one-shotting squads left, right and centre was justified, if I may remind you.

  • #5
    7 months ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 231
    edited September 2018

    @Hingie said:
    I dont agree. It was ridiculous before and Id rather keep it frying in hell for the sins of its the past than facing another comet dominance era.

    What people forget about is before the nerf, as stated abow, in combo with the insane off map arty some commanders had made them look stuped OP, specialy such fast tank with accuracy pen only at 0.75 made them even more idle to hunt down tanks than Panthers back then. Thankfully thats not the case anymore. So this post is aimed to make them effective in contrast of cost, rather than reduce it which would just be another "easy fix" to render one more unit useless. A range buff and a bit more effetive against inf shoudlt be too much to ask for in this case without making it broken. Its still pretty meh in term of taking on later axis tanks, witch its own right because its not a tank destroyer after all. Holding on for 2 comets its simply never an good options, specialy if you use docs with other call in units.

  • #6
    7 months ago
    I don't want to see hordes of comets returning. It doesn't need 50 range because brits have a 60 range TD in their lineup. Give the poor P4 a chance.
  • #7
    7 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,007
    edited September 2018

    If you want to know why the Comet is keeping 45 range and not going back to 50, it's because there's 2 Axis factions, and only one of them has a 60 range TD non-doc. Being forced to trade with Comets when you should be zoning them was stupid. A range buff is absolutely too much to ask for the Comet.

    Yes - the MGs aren't as good as the Panthers, but that's why the Comet gets phosphorous shells and grenades. What it lacks in raw firepower it makes up for in utility.

    Bringing back rotation speed might not be an awful idea now though, seeings as the lower rear armor makes diving in to enemy lines a bit riskier and the PIV has had some adjustments to make it a more viable medium.

  • #8
    7 months ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 231
    edited September 2018

    @Lazarus said:
    If you want to know why the Comet is keeping 45 range and not going back to 50, it's because there's 2 Axis factions, and only one of them has a 60 range TD non-doc. Being forced to trade with Comets when you should be zoning them was stupid. A range buff is absolutely too much to ask for the Comet.

    Not sure what u mean here, i pointed out more those whos has the range advantage that can utilize it over the comet.
    Not only that, but need to get close to those deadly packs to decrew them, which dosent help with chorter range if spoted one.

    Yes - the MGs aren't as good as the Panthers, but that's why the Comet gets phosphorous shells and grenades. What it lacks in raw firepower it makes up for in utility.

    Bringing back rotation speed might not be an awful idea now though, seeings as the lower rear armor makes diving in to enemy lines a bit riskier and the PIV has had some adjustments to make it a more viable medium.

    I dont know if it was the rotation nerf that caused it, but it choice way more to start spinning/turning around now than before when issiud it a tighter command where to go, pretty much all the time. If you try the same with cromwell as stated abow it drives forward to where u point it, no matter how tight you klick it from a to b, the Comet unfortanly stops, start spinning "in the heat of the freaking battle!", before it spinned finich paks, tanks have made short work of it. I hope this will be looked in to by the balance team and fixed. Theres something thats certainly not right here. You can also try the churchills, dosent suffer from the same thing, even it has simulary stats in rotation and turning.

  • #9
    7 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,573

    @Lazarus said:
    If you want to know why the Comet is keeping 45 range and not going back to 50, it's because there's 2 Axis factions, and only one of them has a 60 range TD non-doc. Being forced to trade with Comets when you should be zoning them was stupid. A range buff is absolutely too much to ask for the Comet.

    Yes - the MGs aren't as good as the Panthers, but that's why the Comet gets phosphorous shells and grenades. What it lacks in raw firepower it makes up for in utility.

    Bringing back rotation speed might not be an awful idea now though, seeings as the lower rear armor makes diving in to enemy lines a bit riskier and the PIV has had some adjustments to make it a more viable medium.

    Both axis factions have Panther and Panther beats comet every time.
    You'd have to be extremely unlucky to lose panther to comet, especially after last panther buffs.

  • #10
    7 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,007

    @mrdjjag81 said:

    Not sure what u mean here, i pointed out more those whos has the range advantage that can utilize it over the comet.
    Not only that, but need to get close to those deadly packs to decrew them, which dosent help with chorter range if spoted one.

    Right - but JagdPanzer aside, all the units you listed had 50 range, which means if you give the Comet 50 range as you have proposed, they don't have a range advantage anymore. Yes, you do have to get within 40 units of PaK to decrew it, but you've got phosphorous/smoke shells and grenades to let you do exactly that.

    @Katitof said:

    Both axis factions have Panther and Panther beats comet every time.
    You'd have to be extremely unlucky to lose panther to comet, especially after last panther buffs.

    What's your point?

  • #11
    7 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,573

    @Lazarus said:
    What's your point?

    Your argument about no 60 range td against comet for ost holds no value as there is a unit that hardcounters it.

  • #12
    7 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,007
    edited September 2018

    @Katitof said:

    @Lazarus said:
    What's your point?

    Your argument about no 60 range td against comet for ost holds no value as there is a unit that hardcounters it.

    Oh cool, you were just talking shit for the sake of talking shit. The Comet is supposed to lose to the Panther in a straight up fight - and one of the reasons it does is 45 range vs 50. So your suggestion that my argument holds no value holds negative value. You owe the forum value. Don't do that.

    Edit: because you're such an objective, results driven guy I did a little leg work for you in cheatmod to prove my point. The Comet and Panther dueling without range difference (i.e. the engagement starts at 45) comes out to a 20% success rate (4 out of 20, because I don't have all day to list all of the matters in which you are incorrect) for the Comet, with the Panther only ever surviving with more than 50% HP once.

    Relevant things about the test: these are stationary slugfests. This tips things more in the Panthers favor as it's a sit and shoot tank that if flanked by the Comet (not a particularly tall order by any stretch) loses its only other advantage - armor.

    Nobody used abilities or had upgrades - not so significant for the Panther, but stacking the odds against the Comet by depriving it of the very useful auto-buy commander upgrade.

    The determining factor that won the engagement for the Comet was scoring low reload rolls - sometimes firing 3 shots in the time it took the Panther to shoot 2.

    So y'know. I think we'll probably be leaving it at 45 range so that the Panther remains a hard counter to the unit we nerfed specifically so the Panther would be a hard counter to it.

  • #13
    7 months ago
    > @Katitof said:
    > @Lazarus said:
    > If you want to know why the Comet is keeping 45 range and not going back to 50, it's because there's 2 Axis factions, and only one of them has a 60 range TD non-doc. Being forced to trade with Comets when you should be zoning them was stupid. A range buff is absolutely too much to ask for the Comet.
    >
    > Yes - the MGs aren't as good as the Panthers, but that's why the Comet gets phosphorous shells and grenades. What it lacks in raw firepower it makes up for in utility.
    >
    > Bringing back rotation speed might not be an awful idea now though, seeings as the lower rear armor makes diving in to enemy lines a bit riskier and the PIV has had some adjustments to make it a more viable medium.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Both axis factions have Panther and Panther beats comet every time.
    > You'd have to be extremely unlucky to lose panther to comet, especially after last panther buffs.

    And the comet has other advantages of its own. The panther is supposed to be the best tank killing tank in the game and is semi specialized to do so. The previous comet would lose to a panther in a brawl only 60% of the time ONTOP of having a mobility advantage ONTOP of having USF levels of moving accuracy ONTOP of having a utility advantage ONTOP of having some of the most effecient multirole engineers ONTOP of being able to see targets into the FOW ONTOP of increased vision and vet gain ONTOP of being able to counter team weapons incliding the pak out to 70 range. All that ONTOP made it over the top. It's fine now. You have an overgrown cromwell instead of a limitless Pershing lite. There is actually a choice between hammer and anvil now. The comet beats all tanks except German big cats and that is absolutely fine.
  • #14
    7 months ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 231
    edited September 2018

    My point was'nt to make it a tank destroyer anyway, fair enough with the range as it is but its very bad on killing inf, so bring back the max distance scatter to 4.2 again wouldnt break it imo. The biggest concern still is the steering mechanism thats too often leads to it start spinning, i hope they have a look at it.

  • #15
    7 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,260
    edited September 2018
    I don't see an issue with the comets performance other than maybe the rotation like you referenced Laz. The main gun was nerfed so hard I don't really see why it's mobility also needed to go.

    To me it was the combination of those two that was causing the problem in the first place. The gun was the more egregiously balance effecting piece; with that where it is now it's handling should probably be restored. I don't see a reason why the comet shouldn't be able to crush now that it's main gun is no longer god-tier against everything.
  • #16
    7 months ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    I don't see an issue with the comets performance other than maybe the rotation like you referenced Laz. The main gun was nerfed so hard I don't really see why it's mobility also needed to go.

    To me it was the combination of those two that was causing the problem in the first place. The gun was the more egregiously balance effecting piece; with that where it is now it's handling should probably be restored. I don't see a reason why the comet shouldn't be able to crush now that it's main gun is no longer god-tier against everything.

    Definitely the accuracy on the move being just 0.75 that caused the main gun in most situations to overperform before the nerf, such a mobil tank as it was cant have that high accuracy on the move.

  • #17
    7 months ago
    @mrdjjag81 Very much agreed. Given that they changed moving modifier to the standard .5 I think the rotation nerf was too much.

    Even though they increased turret rotation to "compensate", it seems relic ignored the fact that vehicle rotation effects a lot more than flanking.
  • #18
    7 months ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 231
    edited September 2018

    @SkysTheLimit Sure, incraced turrent rotation was nice but i rather see the stearing works so it wont start spinning and shows his arse armor to a wall of cloaked raketen when u issue it a driving back command in any form..

  • #19
    7 months ago
    I can always get behind improved pathfinding.
  • #20
    7 months ago
    @mrdjjag81 That's exactly what I meant; I could've worded it better my bad.
  • #21
    7 months ago

    Also, futher explanation on the ridiculous cruching it had was often due to a combinatio with the high boost of the war speed ability before the nerf and making a quick turning maneuver against inf, its simply not the case anymore so that shouldnt be a problem anymore.

  • #22
    7 months ago
    ValkyrieValkyrie Posts: 2,132

    The Comet in its current state is underperforming - It's just not used, not matter the game mode. The entirety of the UKF needs some work currently, and the Comet is just a piece in the puzzle at this point really. We didn't see UKF in all of GCS, which should be a pretty clear indicator of the state of things.

    Like others have pointed out, it's pathfinding is weird, it spins a lot. Fixing this is probably difficult, but something is messed up for sure.

    Stat wise I'm not sure it needs range, but at its current price point I expect way more in terms of its ability to fight Panthers and other heavy tanks. The Allies don't need another cheap tank that doesn't work, they need an expensive one that takes names and get stuff done. The Comet has great potential to fill this role. RoF, penetration, accuracy and survivability are all stats that could be potential ways to fix this.

    Oh yeah, that's right, I'm back.

  • #23
    7 months ago
    I'd really like to see what could be done with comets and church's if they were limited to 1. Imo the biggest problem wasn't the units themselves (although the comet was not designed to be balanced by any scope at launch and needed toned down) but as long as you can pump them out as long as the resources allow they can't be great. Hammer also grants other buffs that combine to help the comet, maybe pathfindingand some more accuracy would be enough? Who knows. Maybe a bump to 200 damage to really define it as an up jumped cromwell and set it more firmly as a heavy killer would help. Idk
  • #24
    7 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,573

    Remember that UKF late game was designed as a response to wehr and okw panther/heavy spam.

    Comet and churchill are responses to panthers, not countering them, but something for panthers to crash into instead of roll over.

  • #25
    7 months ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 231
    edited September 2018

    @Valkyrie said:
    The Comet in its current state is underperforming - It's just not used, not matter the game mode. The entirety of the UKF needs some work currently, and the Comet is just a piece in the puzzle at this point really. We didn't see UKF in all of GCS, which should be a pretty clear indicator of the state of things.

    Like others have pointed out, it's pathfinding is weird, it spins a lot. Fixing this is probably difficult, but something is messed up for sure.

    Stat wise I'm not sure it needs range, but at its current price point I expect way more in terms of its ability to fight Panthers and other heavy tanks. The Allies don't need another cheap tank that doesn't work, they need an expensive one that takes names and get stuff done. The Comet has great potential to fill this role. RoF, penetration, accuracy and survivability are all stats that could be potential ways to fix this.

    Oh yeah, that's right, I'm back.

    Couldnt said it better myself. Something need to be done, the hammer tactic in general seams dead now days, much thanks to the underperforming comet. And yes, i rather see a 200 fuel tank that make sense to use. If people worry about it to be spamed you cant win by just spam one unit, u need an combined army and brits inf and other things is pretty expensive and not very priceeffective in late game compare to others, you need your resources to keep ur army up. As i pointed out abow those things that could had been untouched instead and give it fuel incrace to 200-210 to prevent building many of them, rather than break the tank so no one use it..

  • #26
    4 months ago

    Is it possible for the balance team to do something about the Comet tank before the patch release? Right not it's just not an relevant tank for it's cost and how late it comes out. Since the Panther got its health buf its just not an even fight anymore as they comes out pretty equal in time. Other late axis late heavy its not even necussary to compare with.

    Some sulotion would be to
    1. Bring up the health to 960 as the Panther
    2. Revert the moving accuracy back to 0.75, its already a big risk to make an offensive move with it since u most likely will loose it due to snare and antitank units, because its not a tank that can fight at range anymore due to the range nerf.
    3. Make acceleration better, i guess it would remove alot of frustrating watch it start doing a 360 when order it a commande.

    Theres many sulotion since it got nerfed so many times but i think those are some to start with at least to make it more of a choice than just go churchill all the time. All thought churchill is fine i think .

  • #27
    4 months ago
    Lnk003Lnk003 Posts: 411
    edited December 2018

    Awaking the dead in hope devs look at comet next patch since it was sadly unchange and indeed underperform.
    Imo it's main gun inconsistency vs infantry is the biggest issue: vs big hitboxes like tanks no problem, but small ones like infantry, it will misses most of the time until that lucky shot that can wipe squad. The irony being the range nerf was to match other infantry murdering tanks like pershing and tiger while it feels fairly unreliable in this departement (althought it doesn't need to be just as good as tiger or pershing).

    In a second step, if this is not enough: The grenade could maybe be replaced by ap ability w temporary effects, it does lack of punch when fighting heavies like tiger; it's not an issue in itself because comet is versatile but the real question is whether or not a firefly need to be alongside comets to fight heavies.
    Something just to not get steamrolled if you go comet or not make firefly just mandatory.

    Aside of that: The projectile looks a bit weird w the way it deals dmg before the hit animation (you'll see that specially vs infantry w a bit of range between the units). It's just visual but still matters imo.

  • #28
    4 months ago

    I think it is because before it had a faster projectile, the first nerf made the projectile move slower for some reason i notice, but the inf still take dammage as it would travel normal intended speed.

    I think a health buff would help the comet, and as u write, do something about the bad inf capacity it has. If it had a bit more simulary stats as the churchill it would make more sence. It still has just 45 range so wouldnt be too much to ask for.

    It still dosent stand up against late axis tank with its short range, everything outrange it. Is it a good flanking tank? Not so anymore with its 50 procent moving accuracy pen, high cost in comparing to its rather low health as heavy comparing to other reval tanks. Risk making a flanking manover with the comet its more like a certain death due to mines, at snares, cloaking at guns, pak43, elephant, jagd, u name it. Its not rewarding in anyway to try set ut up a flank, leaving you with no choice often than attacking stright ahead.

    Also, its pathing its still terrible, making you lose it even more due to a "stop, turn, start make a 180" if theres a grasstraw in the way, this happen since they nerfed its "turning" due to its heavy crusch ability, instead of rather reduce its cruch it self. Ending up getting a tank thats terribel to manover at the moment.

    So much thats need to be fix with this tank but at least i hope the dev can have a look at it and make it a choice again, for now all choice u have is churchill pretty much. And ff if you need tank destroyer, but they are pretty ok. Except the nerf they gave them to make it harder to hit medium tanks, jagdpanzer for excample, makes you often even lose to them 1vs1. But thats another story, plz fix the comet tank.

  • #29
    4 months ago

    Im well aware of its a pretty difficult tank to balance, due to its not limited to one and was'nt meant to be any tankdestroyer by it self. But fixing the pathing issue, buff its inf capacity and make it a 960 health tank (much due to the panther buff lately) would make it more of a atrcitve choice without making it too good either.

  • #30
    4 months ago
    vampvenomvampvenom GermanyPosts: 29

    I really don't know how you could complain, Comet is the speed and the armor of a panther and the gun of a tiger with the ability to throw grenades! Like what the hell do you want more? a king tiger armor with speed of panther and gun of ISU 152?

  • #31
    4 months ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 231
    edited December 2018

    Why you think its no comet on the field at the moment? Because it got its advantage of the speed, armor and gun? Both those tanks you mentioned abow make you not want to go for comet to make any impact with your army in late game.

    Its inferior to both in term of price what impact it has once its out, no matter how you use it. Blobs of volks or gren followed up by cloaked 270mp at guns back it up back to base any day.

    It cant kill anything thats not tanks, hell even panthers hull mgs kills better lol

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