[OST][ALL] Grenadiers with MG42L

#1
2 years ago

Grenadiers (240 MP) with MG42L are an exceptional overperforming unit. They outperform US-paras with L-MG with ease because of their veterancy and their rifle grenade. US-Paras pay 120 ammo for the upgrade, Grens 60ammo? They have regular shrek and rifle grenade - why do they need an LMG? I know Ost has no Ober but enough tank power, e.g. to counter infantry. They can also use PzGrens for ai purpose. The biggest problem is the deadly long range in combination with the rifle grenade.
Keep LMGs for doctrinals or at least increase the cost to 120 to equal US-Paras.

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Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago
    M1919s on paras are much better than lmg42 on Grens. They can be fired on the move, it's on a 6 man squad, and you get the suppression/slowing ability.

    If grens are outperforming your paras cause of the rifle grenade, your not paying close enough attention to your infantry. The cooked frag from paras is pretty nasty itself.
  • #3
    2 years ago
    Yupp. Sounds like a l2p to me unfortunately.
  • #4
    2 years ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    Grenadiers needs some kind of vet rearrangement like conscript.
    It or its weapon does not need nerf at all mate.

  • #5
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Bogeyfox said:
    The biggest problem is the deadly long range in combination with the rifle grenade.

    It would be infinitely worse if they had a normal grenade. As it stands, once you close with the Grenadiers with any non-builder infantry, you're in a more optimal combat position. As it currently stands, the Grenadiers have to stand and fight with their DPS that doesn't have as wide a margin in close range as it does long, or they have to retreat. If they had a normal grenade, they could stand, fight and wipe with a normal grenade.

    Yes. Their long range DPS is high and they have burst potential with the rifle grenade that was balanced after it got the vet range nerf. That's what they get for being so extremely easy to wipe once you pour some DPS in to them. They're glass cannons.

  • #6
    2 years ago
    Grens are a 4 man squad. Because of this when they drop a model they lose 25% of their DPS. They are able to get an LMG because otherwise they would insta lose any fight because as they lose models it gets even harder to drop an enemy model. There is no way in high hell that grens were fighting on neg cover and winning. That's 11 men vs 12 with the 12 easier to hit and taking extra damage? If you lost the engagement due to an RG that's fair game. Pay attention and it won't happen. Grens get whomped as it is with WFA double armed units, without the lmg they would be just as outmatched as cons vs volks.
  • #7
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Bogeyfox said:

    That's why you make them ez range units that can just hit and run doing extreme damage for 240 MP?

    240 MP and 60 Muni, and doing high damage. It is nowhere near extreme unless you're blobbed on negative cover.

    @Bogeyfox said:
    But i saw alot of grens running without losing a model.

    Prove it, or no you didn't.

    @Bogeyfox said:

    Btw. it's cool to have 1 unit with extreme range damage and PZGrens with extreme close range dmg.

    Yes, it is cool to have units that work well together. That's what combined arms is.

  • #8
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited September 2018
    > @Bogeyfox said:
    > glass canons? I was fighting 3 grens with LMGs with my 1 RM and 1 Para LMG in cover. All units had 2 or 3 stars. Grens stopped on the street in red cover and took on Paras. Paras were down in no time.... why? 1 grenade and that s it. I lost 5 Para Models and 3 RM and took out 1 Model in return.

    So your problem in the example you gave has nothing to do with the lmg upgrade. They got 1 good rifle-grenade hit, and that turned the tide against you. A good mortar hit can do the same thing.

    There's no squad in the game more vulnerable to explosives than Grens. Not only are they 4 men but they are a squad that needs to stand still very often. The rifle grenade is good, but it's not without drawbacks. The min range means that getting close to them causes them trouble.

    Ost is very strong atm but Grens are the last thing that needs adjusting.
  • #9
    2 years ago
    ValkyrieValkyrie Posts: 2,132

    I honestly think the main issue is that its difficult, especially for the Soviets, to field units which are just as cost effective. Cons, as discussed a million times over, would need a non doctrinal upgrade to be able to fight them.

    The UKF and USF have options, but they're convoluted compared to the ease of getting a LMG Gren-blob going.

    The "but explosives kill them" is not an excuse which is applicable - A big portion of the game is straight up infantry versus infantry fighting, and all factions need infantry which can do a decent job on its own. Currently we're not quite there, but I guess we're closer than we've been before.

  • #10
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    > @Bogeyfox said:
    > Hmm - what other allied 240 inf unit can do so much damage? It's about balance - no?

    No Axis unit does that kind of damage for 240 MP either. It's 240 MP and 60 muni. That's not an insignificant cost.



    > @Bogeyfox said:
    > No allied faction has 2 regular units with combined low and long range high dps but enlighten me...

    Tommies and Sappers springs immediately to mind but those are just facts. The other fact is that Riflemen and Penals are more flexible. They beat PGrens if the fight starts at range and they geat Grens if they can get close without dropping 2 models. That's the entire poibt of them being semi-auto infantry. They are middle all around instead of being good at one end and crap at the other.
  • #11
    2 years ago
    @Bogeyfox Then dodge the grenade. Problem solved
  • #12
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Bogeyfox said:
    well which 240 mp t0.5 60 ammo allied unit has such power - then - omg.

    There are no T0 240 MP 60 Muni Allied units.

    @Bogeyfox said:
    Again facts.. never seen 1 sapper killing a 1stormpio...

    Pretty good thing too - seeings as Sappers are only 210 MP while Sturms are 300. But you only asked for a combo of Allied units that had high long range damage and high close range damage and that's exactly what I gave you.

    @Bogeyfox said:

    Again it's 40 - 60 MP difference....

    Then why don't PGrens beat Penals/RM 100% of the time? After all, it's 40 - 60 MP difference...

  • #13
    2 years ago
    > @Bogeyfox said:
    > well which 240 mp t0.5 60 ammo allied unit has such power - then - omg.

    which other allied unit has no choice but be 4 men the whole game?
    also they are t1, not t0.5.
  • #14
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 2,009

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    which other allied unit has no choice but be 4 men the whole game?

    Oh, oh I know that one! Its Combat Engineers, isnt it? Must be!

  • #15
    2 years ago
    > @Hingie said:
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > which other allied unit has no choice but be 4 men the whole game?
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Oh, oh I know that one! Its Combat Engineers, isnt it? Must be!

    Well that's what I get you clever bastard you
    I neglected to specifically core combatant.

    Side note, if CE had 5 models (say 200mp) think they would maybe not suck ass beyond anything else in the game?
  • #16
    2 years ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549

    didnt they had the exact model as conscripts? Also they may be cobat enginners, but they keep complaining about otherwise

  • #17
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @pablonano said:
    didnt they had the exact model as conscripts? Also they may be cobat enginners, but they keep complaining about otherwise

    Cons are easier to hit, CEs can't shoot their weapons, still having old, completely ineffective mosins with abysmal accuracy and 16 damage instead of new con mosins with 12 damage and reasonable accuracy.

    CEs will always suck as long as they have no additional combat utility(RETs and REs can wield AT, easily destroy cover and while useless, cause suppression, pios have reasonable CQC DPS and massive sight range, sturmpios are packed with combat utility and massive punch early game) and their shitty weapon that can't hit anything, all engies can vet up with sweepers except for CEs.

  • #18
    2 years ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549

    Perhaps there should be made a treath to talk about combat enginners performance, in any case i would like to see this unit improving its utility rather than raw combat effectiveness.

  • #19
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @pablonano said:
    Perhaps there should be made a treath to talk about combat enginners performance, in any case i would like to see this unit improving its utility rather than raw combat effectiveness.

    Utility doesn't help vetting up.

    All other engineer units are potent combatants for their cost and can be improved further even while having minesweeper(except sturmpios, which are not exactly hard to vet and can put down sweeper).

  • #20
    2 years ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549

    You keep repeating that like it was all they needed, not be usefull but have 3 stars, i dont want vet 3 CE, and while enginners are lately becoming okish in combat i dont really want this to be the standart, nor soviets need them to perform like that, i want usefull CE.

    But if your issue is that they dont get fancy 3 stars you can give them more ways to get exp like combat sharing exp, they dont have any problem with the flametrower and like that you have a non combat way to update them to vet 2 and repair faster.

    With all this said, i also remembered that none of the good combar performance enginners have any flamethrower that is non-doctrinal, which is a huge advantage of the CE and Pioniers and a really usefull tool overall to have. And while pioniers are okish now fighting, upgrading them to minesweeper does inder its dps to meh levels once again and lvling them up its a nightmare, only by continuously finding support teams that will retreat with no problem and even walking away, and only if it happens to not be recrewed by anykind of infantry that would just kill it, because other combat unit they find they wont be able to really fight them off.

  • #21
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    You do realize that 3 stars on repair units is exactly what makes it useful, because suddenly they do not die instantly to anything and repair 50% faster, which is quite important late game?

  • #22
    2 years ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549

    the repair speed its on vet 2, and allowing to repair on combat should be removed as its just rewarding bad play.
    However you cant rely that an unit will perform only when you manage to level it up, improving them on its base would be the way to go.

    Upgrading to minesweepers arent meant to be a good choice on combat, just a countermeasure , but if you feel thats a must just suggest them to bring back the demochargue/mine exp from coh1, they still wont be combat units but will manage to lvl up perfectly fine, well perhaps not with the demochargue since now its garbage but mines will do the job fine.

  • #23
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    > @Bogeyfox said:
    > Well it's not. Then sappers would have a decent chance to kill their counterparts - or not? Apart from the vet problem

    So lets get this straight.

    RM - 280 MP
    Grens - 240 MP

    40 MP difference. Even though RM beat Grens at mid and close range, you're having a fit they can't auto win at long range too if you sit there and catch every grenade produced by the Reich between 1933 and 1945.

    Sappers - 210 MP
    Sturms - 300 MP

    90 MP difference. More than twice that of RM and Grens. But you think it would be perfectly reasonable for Sappers to be able to match Sturm DPS at all ranges? Nevermind that they can actually get close to Sturm DPS at close range if you ambush. This is *before* adding the 5th man.

    Not that there was any doubt, but this is pretty clear cut. You're not interested in balance at all.


    > @Bogeyfox said:
    >
    > The idea of balance is a unit works according to their role. And main inf shouldn't be a long range sniper for a 60 ammo investment - that's my opinion.

    I have good news for you. No mainline infantry becomes a long range sniper for 60 muni. Grens become long range specialists with a 240 MP and 60 Muni investment. The Wehr sniper is the long range sniper. Grens provide long range DPS and are beaten at mid/close range by Western mainline inf. Pgrens provide mid - short DPS and are beaten at long range by Western mainline inf. If this is too difficult a concept to grasp, I recommend going here:

    https://community.companyofheroes.com/categories/coh-2-strategy-discussion

    and asking the community to help teach you how to deal with these units.
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