USF LT tier and Capt tier suggestion

#1
7 months ago
XlossXloss Posts: 235
edited November 2018 in General Discussion

While USF are considered the most versatile Faction, LT / Capt tier really got huge problem.
Support weapons are separated which will bring you down if you chose the wrong one.

They dont have non- doc arty like Sov Katyusha or non doc Heavy tank/Pershing like Churchcill/Comet.
While axis got everything from Heavy tanks and arty without any doc.
Its like playing a faction with one hand. Every decision on tech upgrade got down sides.

Why cant they have both HMG and AT gun on one of them but weaker/stronger.
Suggestion Give them new support weapon variant that got some strong points.

LT
M2HB (Stronger HMG)
57mm M1 Antitank Gun (Weaker AT Gun)

Capt Tier
HMG M1917A1 (Weaker HMG) New no AP Rounds longer pack up time
76mm M5 3-inch Gun(Stronger AT Gun) New

Comments

  • #2
    7 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 337
    edited November 2018

    I also find the problem that Lieu is counter infantry / Cap is counter vehicle. Especially when vs Okw, go Cap tech, they can spam infantry, go with Lieu tech, they bring in a Luch or Puma and we have no answer except paying 15fuel for weapon rack. I really think Lieu & Cap should be a mix between Mobile/slowMobile of anti infantry/vehicle

    As my suggestion with already exist units:
    Lieu - High mobile AI / Slow mobile AT

    • ATgun
    • M20 car
    • AA halftrack
      -> ATgun with M20 mine work together perfectly

    Cap - Slow mobile AI / High mobile AT

    • MG50cal
    • M1 Supportgun
    • Stuart
      -> Easy play, but costly

    Because of current Lieu/Cap tech, it force me to use Airborne doc most of the time because it has both MG & ATgun, incase I need an AT when go to Lieu, or an MG when go to Cap.

    The original Cap had 2 bazooka when they step on the field, but today they have 0 bazooka, even ungrade with only 1 and have to pay for weaponrack to get the 2nd bazooka. Beside Cap's On me ability had all infantry move to them in radius of 45m, now down to 25m with a single infantry squad. Also their ability to boost production speed can use on teammate, but now its no more.
    Im sure 100% Cap is the most nerfed infantry squad in RTS games history, not just Coh2.

  • #3
    7 months ago

    I really like your fix suggestion, C3.

  • #4
    7 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    @C3Tooth said:
    I also find the problem that Lieu is counter infantry / Cap is counter vehicle. Especially when vs Okw, go Cap tech, they can spam infantry, go with Lieu tech, they bring in a Luch or Puma and we have no answer except paying 15fuel for weapon rack. I really think Lieu & Cap should be a mix between Mobile/slowMobile of anti infantry/vehicle

    As my suggestion with already exist units:
    Lieu - High mobile AI / Slow mobile AT

    • ATgun
    • M20 car
    • AA halftrack
      -> ATgun with M20 mine work together perfectly

    Cap - Slow mobile AI / High mobile AT

    • MG50cal
    • M1 Supportgun
    • Stuart
      -> Easy play, but costly

    Because of current Lieu/Cap tech, it force me to use Airborne doc most of the time because it has both MG & ATgun, incase I need an AT when go to Lieu, or an MG when go to Cap.

    The original Cap had 2 bazooka when they step on the field, but today they have 0 bazooka, even ungrade with only 1 and have to pay for weaponrack to get the 2nd bazooka. Beside Cap's On me ability had all infantry move to them in radius of 45m, now down to 25m with a single infantry squad. Also their ability to boost production speed can use on teammate, but now its no more.
    Im sure 100% Cap is the most nerfed infantry squad in RTS games history, not just Coh2.

    Its also good to switch M2HB with M1 AT gun.
    But the current AT gun USF have a hard time penetrating Medium to Heavy tanks even with AP rounds activated.
    That's why i included 76mm M5 3-inch Gun for better penetration but slower type of gun.

  • #5
    7 months ago
    I too like the idea of opening the focus in the middle tiers. You pay mp or fuel for Supression OR at in one or the other allowing you to pick better based on your income/ play style without leaving a hole in your lineup.
    I wonder what upping teching a bit and lowering the cost of the vehicles within accordingly and having weapon racks unlocked with the first building would be like. Then even if you go lieutenant you can get zooks, and vice versa. Has the added benifited of making something like the m20 more attractive later game too...
  • #6
    7 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    The thing is USF needs a lot of MP and Fuel for upgrades which delay their crappy Major tanks. While upgrading major don't have a lot of benefits anyway coz of poor performance of their medium tanks.

  • #7
    7 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 337

    Weaponrack: 15fuel
    Grenade: 25fuel
    Ambulance: 10fuel
    ------Total 50 fuel for side tech------
    Combine this with Lieu: 50fuel / Major: 120fuel / Sherman: 110fuel
    USF need 330 fuel for the First Sherman

    Ost faction
    Infanterie: 10fuel / Phase1: 45fuel / Mechanized: 20fuel / Phase2: 90fuel / SupportArmor: 15fuel / PanzerIV: 120fuel
    Ost need 300 fuel for the First PanzerIV
    "Lategame" advantage faction.

  • #8
    7 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    @C3Tooth said:
    Weaponrack: 15fuel
    Grenade: 25fuel
    Ambulance: 10fuel
    ------Total 50 fuel for side tech------
    Combine this with Lieu: 50fuel / Major: 120fuel / Sherman: 110fuel
    USF need 330 fuel for the First Sherman

    Ost faction
    Infanterie: 10fuel / Phase1: 45fuel / Mechanized: 20fuel / Phase2: 90fuel / SupportArmor: 15fuel / PanzerIV: 120fuel
    Ost need 300 fuel for the First PanzerIV
    "Lategame" advantage faction.

    330 for Lt tier fuel
    340 if they go Captain tier
    if they won't be forced to back tech to capt./lt for the AT gun/mg.
    390 if they back tech which opponent will get a tiger/King tiger for that if they conserve fuel.

    But 99% of the time i back tech when playing 2v2 plus. Can't comment on 1v1 i think they don't coz its too much pricey for its benfits.

  • #9
    7 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 337

    Ost, Brit are factions that cant skip tech, so they have all tech in 1 game
    Okw has the prize for teching all: King tiger, so they never abandone a tech

    Back to 2013, where Soviet's each tech were too costly that Soviet could only have 2 tech in a game. Today Soviet can skip either SpecRile or WeaponSup, but both of these tech are supper cheap, Soviet can afford all 4 tech.

    USF is the only faction that we can not back tech because we cant throw 50 or 60fuel to get early mid game units

  • #10
    7 months ago

    I love this suggestion

  • #11
    7 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    @C3Tooth said:
    Ost, Brit are factions that cant skip tech, so they have all tech in 1 game
    Okw has the prize for teching all: King tiger, so they never abandone a tech

    Back to 2013, where Soviet's each tech were too costly that Soviet could only have 2 tech in a game. Today Soviet can skip either SpecRile or WeaponSup, but both of these tech are supper cheap, Soviet can afford all 4 tech.

    USF is the only faction that we can not back tech because we cant throw 50 or 60fuel to get early mid game units

    Mate. I'm talking about support weapons. Read carefully. The rest of LT and CPT units are crap exept the MG and AT guns. Which are separated. The unit composition of LT are focused on infantry or vehicle. While other faction got a good mixed of unit which they can use to skip tech.

    READ SUPPORT WEAPONS

    At least give them treatment like OKW or my suggestion. Its hard to get by support weapon in USF vs other factions.

  • #12
    7 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 337

    We will not have un-existed unit in Coh2. Even those guns are exist in game, but the models arent. I dont know if they can make it happen.
    To me, mixing of already existed units of AI & AT units in Lieu & Cap is easier for balancing team to make it real. And at least it fix the problem of Lieu / Cap tech.

  • #13
    7 months ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 345

    From my perspective, the real problem is that the M1919 LMG is doctrinal when it should be a core weapon. If the M1919 rack was opened at the same time as the BAR's and Bazooka's, it would fix the problem. Then you could skip the Lt., unlock the Cpt. and have LMG's to support your AT guns.

    The LMG's which are doctrinal could be replaced by infantry units: Rangers in Tactical Support and Cavalry Riflemen in Infantry (or vice versa). This would improve both the core force and the doctrines that are affected.

  • #14
    7 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235
    edited November 2018

    Well. That does not justify the crappy line up of units LT and Capt have. If they will put the MG and AT gun together in Capt or LT. I'm 1000% sure the one without the MG and AT gun will be ignored.

  • #15
    6 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 337

    USF tech change 1.2:

    • Cost tech Lieu/Cap from 30fuel to 35fuel, 150mp to 200mp
    • Time tech from 60 to 70
      => The cheaper cost of officers was allowing USF to apply a lot of early field presence and pressure. We felt this was an issue for Ostheer in particular.
      Well this was an issue for Ostheer but its not a problem to Okw.

    =>After feedback, we felt that LT + CPT would become the dominant choice giving USF numerous infantry squads and all necessary support weapons to stall into a quick Major. Teching LT + CPT into Major will now cost 20 fuel more than completing either tier.
    Fielding in a Light vehicles is a must to USF, to make USF less infantry spamming, I agree to that. Look at Okw, Sturm, Volk stg44 without sidetech, MG34, Rakenten. They dont need to field Light vehicles.

  • #16
    6 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    USF also fall short in Cost of upgrades and unit efficiency. Plus they lack non-doc Rocket arty and Heavy tanks, where other faction have at least one or both(OKW).

  • #17
    5 months ago
    > @C3Tooth said:
    > Weaponrack: 15fuel
    > Grenade: 25fuel
    > Ambulance: 10fuel
    > ------Total 50 fuel for side tech------
    > Combine this with Lieu: 50fuel / Major: 120fuel / Sherman: 110fuel
    > USF need 330 fuel for the First Sherman
    >
    > Ost faction
    > Infanterie: 10fuel / Phase1: 45fuel / Mechanized: 20fuel / Phase2: 90fuel / SupportArmor: 15fuel / PanzerIV: 120fuel
    > Ost need 300 fuel for the First PanzerIV
    > "Lategame" advantage faction.

    Also stock sherman Is essencialy early war Sherman 75mm vs stock late war panzer4 does not help matters.
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