[all][all] MG's dont do their job in late game

#1
5 months ago
BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
edited January 2 in Balance Feedback

i decided to come back to playing this game after at least half a year off. certain things have changed, others have not.

one thing that has changed is that im unable to find the CoH2 unit stats webpage to properly do my homework these days.

anyway, topic at hand. this is not an early game problem, but a late game one.
I dont think that MGs do their job properly in late game, at least for 4v4 matches. i think we have all seen it happen. you put down an MG, an enemy runs in to its fire, the MG keeps shooting, the enemy doesnt get suppressed, they then eventually lob a grenade and get suppressed and laughs as you are forced to retreat. this is specially true with volksgrenadiers that have flame grenades.

Large groups of infantry with upgrade weapons are allowed to run amok on the battlefield, and the one unit everyone has access to, the MG, often does a pisspoor job at actually suppressing those units. while i have seen this happen on the MG42, i see it as less of a problem since it seemingly suppresses faster (i can be wrong, but again, i cant find the webpage to confirm) than the maxim. while using rocket trucks or rocket halftracks, they are less useful if the enemy does not blob. using large infantry groups does not mean you blob, and thus i wanted to turn to MGs rather than rocket trucks.

Using a maxim in a late 4v4 game seem almost pointless, as veterency soldiers will wade through your MG fire, and kill or force you to retreat.

I have 2 scenarios that happened during 2 different games.

1st game:
i have the glorious DSHK (which should suppress faster than maxims, again, unconfirmed) protect a victory point. a lazy blob thats not being micro'ed at all, of 3 veterancy volksgrenadiers, runs in. not from the side, but from the far end. they get shot at, for close to 3-4 seconds before 2 of them (oddly not all 3) gets suppressed. the last guy threw a flame grenade, i was forced to retreat.

2nd game:
2 veterency wehrmacht grenadiers runs in, blobbed at a victory point. i have 2 Maxims shooting at them. yet they manage to run in, and crawl up to the point where one of my Maxims were in grenade range (grenade range in suppressed state). they only managed to pin them just before they could shoot off a grenade.

the problem with 4v4 games is that its easy to gain veterency for infantry, like volksgrenadiers (who are too good for their price), grenadiers, Tommies, riflemen, and all those great infantry. they are mobile, they deal good damage. meaning, with veterency they gain resistence to suppression.

on the other hand, you rarely see an MG thats rank 2 and above. hell, they rarely get beyond rank 1. but at rank 1, you dont gain suppression increase i believe. the reason for this lack of rank is that they constantly die to infantry fire/grenades, stukas, what ever artillery this game can throw at you. and in a 4v4 game thats a lot.

you're supposed to use MGs to punish large infantry groups, yet seemingly MGs dont do their job. infantry just run amok never the less, and the only purpose your MG has is to get a grenade to the face, or worse.
i dont think infantry should get suppression resistence as they gain veterency. why would they even do that? if they run in blindly and get MG'd, thats on them. they didnt scout the battlefield before hand.

Why does non veterency MG's, specially the maxim, have to be so terrible against veterency infantry? MGs are supposed to be a direct counter to large infantry groups, yet it cant even deal with them. i dont need MGs to deal a ton of damage, i just need them to suppress the enemy, but they rarely do that and when they do, i could have gone to the bathroom before the suppression started to kick in.

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Comments

  • #2
    5 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721
  • #3
    5 months ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495

    @Vipper said:
    almost updated
    https://coh2db.com/stats/#

    thanks. that webpage looks a lot different from the one i used to use.

  • #4
    5 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,592

    HMGs are punishing blobs only in early to mid game.

    For late game you want AI AoE vehicles like brummbar.

  • #5
    5 months ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited January 2

    @Katitof said:
    HMGs are punishing blobs only in early to mid game.

    For late game you want AI AoE vehicles like brummbar.

    but if i were to talk about this from a soviet perspective, what am i supposed to do?

    conscripts dont win any engagements, neither does penals. not against obers and large groups of volksgrenadiers with STGs.

    at the same time, seemingly, the demolition charge is now visible, as ive seen people blow mine up despite them having never seen me put it down.

    it leaves the rocket truck only and my maxims to deal with large infantry groups, since the soviets dont have an anti infantry vehicle like the brumbar.

    then you have to resort to KV8 flamethrower tanks which is an awesome tank but not a stock vehicle.

    as shown in the post i take this a lot from a soviet point of view because i feel they have a harder time dealing with mass infantry than when i play wehrmacht. because as you say, i could just use a brumbar, or for that matter, use a large infantry force myself. but the soviets cant do that.

  • #6
    5 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,592

    Well, there is katiusha and that's pretty much it without the use of doctrines.

    Also, since you talk from soviet pov, remember that maxims are utter crap unless you spam them and keep them together as well, 1 maxim will never do anything, even to a single squad as volks can easily throw inc nade before maxim does anything to them.

  • #7
    5 months ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited January 2

    @Katitof said:
    Well, there is katiusha and that's pretty much it without the use of doctrines.

    Also, since you talk from soviet pov, remember that maxims are utter crap unless you spam them and keep them together as well, 1 maxim will never do anything, even to a single squad as volks can easily throw inc nade before maxim does anything to them.

    and i feel like thats problematic, with the maxims. given their price that they're crap and useless in singles, they should be cheaper or better. why are they even in the game if they are so darn useless. they are more of a nusiance to even play against rather than something to watch out for. on the other hand the MG42 has everything going for it.

    specially considering that the soviets dont have a stock tier 4 anti infantry vehicle barring the rocket truck, where everyone else has better options. and thats on top of having inadequate soviet MGs and infantry by stock.

    how im actually winning like half my battles or something is beyond my own understanding.

    in any case, i dont feel like ANY infantry should receive resistance to suppression with vet. thats just dumb. it just makes infantry blobs run amok with little repercussion. why shouldnt they be punished by running in blind? damage reduction, sure maybe. resistence to suppression? no thanks. everyone has an MG, and that MG should work against massed infantry, yet they dont.

    the soviets are suffering the hardest from this, but that doesnt mean it cant be a problem for wehrmacht players either, when being stormed by a horde of american riflemen. at least the MG42 does something though.

  • #8
    5 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,789

    i too feel like mgs lose their power late game and the removal of all AOE isnt helping with blobs....

    id like to see some decent modifiers when facing massed infantry. sending waves of enemies across a crater covered no mans land was so last war and should be punished. smoking and flanking should be the name of the game and all factions have the tools to do this. some better at smoking, others better at flanking (or making the most out of the flank)

    i would love if it was possible to add modifiers when mgs are themselves in green cover to promote a prepared hardpoint and emphasis the danger of automatic death machines in a prepared position without making attackmove viable.

    another thing that COULD possibly help, would be amping up MGs on all armour from light to super heavy to help armour force infantry blobs that are relying on their AI power to get them by. running a blob of infantry into a tank shouldnt be viable. it shouldnt be a roll of the dice on "hit the blob and kill 3 models or hit the dirt and do nothing"

    we need more consistent infantry damage to discourage unwanted play.

  • #9
    5 months ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 237
    edited January 3

    Don't know how many time i pointed out how totally useless it is to spend 260MP on a maxim in everyting beyond early game.. Compare the price and effectiveness of it to an mg42 and everyone that plays the game can see why its crap. If it could freaking surpress anything it would be fine, but instead 1 volk squad can crawel up to it with a fire granade without any problem, even if its in a darn house.

    Fix it with giving it equal suppression as the mg42 or lower the price back to 240. I think its better give it a usefull suppression rather than lower the price so we don't see maxim spam again, even if thats the only choice to make them usefull in early game right now.

  • #10
    5 months ago
    ARMYguyARMYguy Posts: 807

    I think the reason MGs don't do their job was the modifier they got a long time ago that makes them take more damage than normal infantry. This should be reverted, cause that plus the insane weapon upgrades infantry have, they just get sniped and outright killed, far faster and before a nade needs to be thrown.

  • #11
    5 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268

    The maxim doesn't do its job at ANY point in the game. Forget early vs late, its always terrible. It is a crime against humanity that the mg42 and maxim are the same price, especially since the 42 is in the HQ

  • #12
    5 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017

    Remember back when defensive vet wasn't working because whenever an infantry model died the vet didn't stick? Remember how infantry combat was about as close to balanced as it ever was (with the exception of Volks schrecks)?

    Just saying, maybe MGs don't need to be better - maybe infantry should be a little worse at standing in no cover

  • #13
    5 months ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited January 3

    As i pointed out, i dont think the problems are the MGs themselves, necessarily. as Lazarus says, i think that infantry just get too much going for them, even when they run around in yellow crater covers.

    i cant for the love of god, understand why infantry, no matter what type, is allowed to run through MG fire. WHY does infantry get suppression resistence with veterency? it makes no sense.

    while the MG42 have usage even in late game (at least i find use for them playing as wehrmacht), it still gets overpowered by blobs too easily. the maxim however is just a waste of time, oxygen and ressources.

    MGs should have better suppression, and infantry should not get resistence towards suppression with veterency. those are my two cents on the matter at least.
    at least that way you wouldnt just run amok with your infantry blobs.

    i agree with those saying the maxim and MG42 should not be priced the same as it is as well. the maxim has neither the suppression rate, nor firing arc of the MG42. and a well placed grenade will destroy a maxim as well as any MG42 even if the maxim has 1 or 2 more members.

    though thats a side point, and not really the main focus of the thread. a bit valid still tho.

  • #14
    5 months ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 237
    edited January 3

    Hope devs read this and do something about the Maxim at least, its a big shame it has been this pricely and bad for so long when it is a starting unit in term of balance, its crap so do something about it please.

  • #15
    5 months ago
    ARMYguyARMYguy Posts: 807

    MG42 arc is actually useless, because of the nerf to the swivel of the gun itself. This is another stupid nerf from its coh1 stats that were way overboard, along with the modifier for damage. These should all be fixed or resolved in some way. MG play should be rewarded. It is completely insane how they rewarded blob play over smart MG play.

  • #16
    5 months ago
    mrpeedmrpeed Posts: 22

    Blobbing is really bad in 2v2. I think MG's need some kind of buff in general so they stay relevant all game. They should do AOE damage and pin units that are close together faster. Also, the swivel should be faster. Maybe to compensate have it take longer to pin squads? Honestly, a moral system would help a lot with blobbing where any unit can suppress another, but that won't happen until the next game.

  • #17
    5 months ago
    YoghurtYoghurt Posts: 74
    edited January 8

    I also think the counters to blobbing shouldn't have been nerfed without thinking of the consequences we now experience. Maxim should definitely be a bit more responsive and/or get its price reverted to 240. What I mean by responsive is perhaps stats like the time to aim, or traverse getting small buffs. But maybe when I think about it, what I'd rather like to see is the close range suppression get an increase by tweaking some stats. It is all too possible to walk up frontally, crawl the last few meters and throw a flame nade. Being that close to the mg should really ramp up the suppression enough so that this move becomes unfeasible.

    Another thing I'd love to see, is a small detection buff to the demo charge. I miss when they could be used to punish blobbing in that magnificent way. It was a very fun element of the game that was unjustly removed. I suggest the range of detection from normal units be lowered some. Perhaps to the extent that a blob marching up to it will detect it at the range where it would start doing damage to them if detonated, i.e. at the edge of the aoe, or close to it. An attentive player could react in time, a good player would use mine sweepers, or just not blob, but one that isn't, deserves the punishment.

  • #18
    5 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235
    edited January 10

    I do think MG should be Lethal and can suppress fast to counter blob. If i where under fire i would hit the dirt a bullet comes passing by.
    MG should have the ability to damage/destroy Heavy cover if the infantry stay really long enough.

    The fix i can think of squad being fired should be suppressed after 2-3 burst but the surrounding squad are semi suppressed to out maneuver the MG.

  • #19
    5 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 337

    To my opinion, all MGs, should get buff alot, and gain more MP cost. To make sure it becomes a truly counter blob platform. Honestly I dont think Allied MGs are that weak, just the models dont know how to shoot, Rear pause time between burst too long, Pion fire MGs exceed the cone range (try to use Sniper to counter Pion MG42 and u can see MG42 can shoot down Sniper at Snip's max range)

    Me as a USF player, its ridiculous to talk about "flanking" MGs, when MGs cost 260mp which is less than a Riflemen 280mp. Are you telling me to get 3 Riflemen to flank 3 MGs?
    MGs bunker also need to have population too.

  • #20
    5 months ago

    @C3Tooth said:
    To my opinion, all MGs, should get buff alot, and gain more MP cost. To make sure it becomes a truly counter blob platform. Honestly I dont think Allied MGs are that weak, just the models dont know how to shoot, Rear pause time between burst too long, Pion fire MGs exceed the cone range (try to use Sniper to counter Pion MG42 and u can see MG42 can shoot down Sniper at Snip's max range)

    Me as a USF player, its ridiculous to talk about "flanking" MGs, when MGs cost 260mp which is less than a Riflemen 280mp. Are you telling me to get 3 Riflemen to flank 3 MGs?
    MGs bunker also need to have population too.

    USF has T0 mortar. You should build mortar instead of RM as soon as you see OST's second MG. Using mortar smoke instead of normal barrage will be more effective.

  • #21
    5 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,789
    Could be interesting to see what more devistating but also more expensive mgs would be like.
  • #22
    5 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,592

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Could be interesting to see what more devistating but also more expensive mgs would be like.

    'member pre nerf 320mp dshk?

  • #23
    5 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    More power full MG and expensive like AT gun is a good start. AT guns are really good vs tanks but if out maneuvered it dies. Lets hope MG does that too.

  • #24
    5 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235

    @addvaluejack said:

    @C3Tooth said:
    To my opinion, all MGs, should get buff alot, and gain more MP cost. To make sure it becomes a truly counter blob platform. Honestly I dont think Allied MGs are that weak, just the models dont know how to shoot, Rear pause time between burst too long, Pion fire MGs exceed the cone range (try to use Sniper to counter Pion MG42 and u can see MG42 can shoot down Sniper at Snip's max range)

    Me as a USF player, its ridiculous to talk about "flanking" MGs, when MGs cost 260mp which is less than a Riflemen 280mp. Are you telling me to get 3 Riflemen to flank 3 MGs?
    MGs bunker also need to have population too.

    USF has T0 mortar. You should build mortar instead of RM as soon as you see OST's second MG. Using mortar smoke instead of normal barrage will be more effective.

    MG is easy to counter with mortars but its not strong enough to counter blobbing which supposed to be its role.
    Getting 3 rifleman vs 1 MG is fine coz MG role is prevent blobbing.

  • #25
    5 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 337

    Point is, 3 MGs is cheaper than 3 RM

  • #26
    5 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,592
    edited January 11

    @C3Tooth said:
    Point is, 3 MGs is cheaper than 3 RM

    3x 280 is less then 3x 280, got it champ.

    Unless you don't mean USF HMG.

  • #27
    5 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 337

    3 RM vs 3 MG42
    MG50cal is on certain tech, higher cost, and worse.

  • #28
    5 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,789
    > @Katitof said:
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > Could be interesting to see what more devistating but also more expensive mgs would be like.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > 'member pre nerf 320mp dshk?

    Effective.
  • #29
    5 months ago
    mrpeedmrpeed Posts: 22
    edited January 11

    HMGs should just suppress units faster in a wider radius and do some AOE damage. They don't need to pin super fast or do high individual damage. The problem is late game blobs with vet can kill certain HMGs head on like they are nothing. Especially when not all the squads in the blob are surpassed right away. I also think maps need to be designed in such a way to promote flanking, multiple avenues of attack, and easy of movement. Many maps (more so in team games) are too small and make blobbing worse honestly.

  • #30
    5 months ago
    > @mrpeed said:
    > HMGs should just suppress units faster in a wider radius and do some AOE damage. They don't need to pin super fast or do high individual damage. The problem is late game blobs with vet can kill certain HMGs head on like they are nothing. Especially when not all the squads in the blob are surpassed right away. I also think maps need to be designed in such a way to promote flanking, multiple avenues of attack, and easy of movement. Many maps (more so in team games) are too small and make blobbing worse honestly.

    In late games, we need put units with long sight range near HMG, because some blob infantry has longer sight range than HMG. I can’t believe how many times my HMG got teared apart by double Bren Infantry Section.
  • #31
    4 months ago
    dmsdms UKPosts: 531
    Mg42 always spots the sniper after the first shot without a spotter and has the same range which makes no sense IMHO.

    Usa struggle with Mg42 spam in team games esp with smoke removed from rifles. Mortar gets over run due to 1 less Rm, usually by volks spam when supported with wehr team weapons followed by a quick atg to stop usa light vehicle counter.

    All mg should suppress blobs. Volks are also just too cost effective which 50 cal struggles with in more than 1 unit.
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