Wehrmacht needs Changes! Panzergrenadiers, Bugs and more

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Comments

  • #32
    9 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 694
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > > @TheLeveler83 said:
    > > Both ukf and usf pay a lot more getting that level of fire power. And they can drop those weapons. Unlike stg,s. Both axis get acces to their non doc upgrade regardles. Imo pgrens do a good job in the ai department without the g43. Giving it to them non doc will make grens less appealing.
    > >
    > > In case of ukf i think bolster and double equiping should lock eachother out. That would be more balanced imo.
    > >
    > > Rifles are meant to carry the faction so i am onboard with them being strong.
    > >
    > > If axis capture say allied at guns td,s etc then preform better vs allied tanks because off lower armour in general when compared to axis tanks. So allies picking up lmg34/42 and it being strong because axis have lower hp/models is fine for the most part. Basicly its balanced that way imo.
    >
    > I was toying with the idea of making all NON elite units have only 1 weapon slot that increases to 2 when fully vetted. This would prevent the massive power leaps of having weapon racks and smooth out the balance of power.

    This is a pretty good idea, i would probably put it at vet 2. it will also hurt a bit more when needing to replace a lost fully vetted squad. You cant just slap 2 weapons on them at vet0 ab be right back in there.
  • #33
    9 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 694
    @Balanced_Gamer

    a single bren is a bit worse then a single mg42 at this time. And i will take a shreck over a piat any time personaly. But you can just slap a second one on them. Just like with usf, single they are worse no doubt about that but double equiping makes them really just plain better.

    As for brits being better overall i agree. They just get to much from ost and usf. Able to go 5th man, double equip, very effecient healing, non doc arty and heavy tank. And ofcourse sim city as their defining atribute.

    I dislike the fact that over the years the factions became more simaler. In some cases it did work out for the better, but i like the a symmetry the game offers.
    Giving ost non doc option to go 5th man is not the way to do this. Soviets ost balance will suffer because of this. And giving every weapon rack just makes faction to simaler.

    Instead toning down wfa is the way to go, they just have a lot more going for them. making double equiping or bolster exclude eachother. And as @thedarkarmadillo suggested limiting double equiping to vet 2 or 3 for usf.
  • #34
    9 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Could be interesting if medic and Pyro took up a weapon slot but slightly changed the orientation of the squad to make them less no Brainer over non upgraded squads. Like the Pyrotechnics upgrade increases LOS, why not force a model to have the scoped Enfield? It's technically a dps downgrade but it could have a SMALL modifier against cover (0.6? 0.7?) and the medic could force an SMG or something that obviously goes against the long range squad, but AOE heals on demand needs a drawback. Then non upgraded squads can still double gun, even if bolstered.

    A little dynamic aside from "oh hey I have munitions *click click*
  • #35
    9 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 694
    I like that idea but i hope the balance team scope is big enough to be able to do it.
  • #36
    9 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    @Balanced_Gamer

    a single bren is a bit worse then a single mg42 at this time. And i will take a shreck over a piat any time personaly. But you can just slap a second one on them. Just like with usf, single they are worse no doubt about that but double equiping makes them really just plain better.

    As for brits being better overall i agree. They just get to much from ost and usf. Able to go 5th man, double equip, very effecient healing, non doc arty and heavy tank. And ofcourse sim city as their defining atribute.

    I dislike the fact that over the years the factions became more simaler. In some cases it did work out for the better, but i like the a symmetry the game offers.
    Giving ost non doc option to go 5th man is not the way to do this. Soviets ost balance will suffer because of this. And giving every weapon rack just makes faction to simaler.

    Instead toning down wfa is the way to go, they just have a lot more going for them. making double equiping or bolster exclude eachother. And as @thedarkarmadillo suggested limiting double equiping to vet 2 or 3 for usf.

    Just to let you know I have done some comparisons between a Grenadier and a Tommy, the differences between. Volksgrenadier too.

    All of these test were when both units kept a distance, both long range Behind Green Cover

    I placed them both behind green cover long range first only with Bolt actions
    4 Grenadier models vs 4 Tommy models.

    Tommy won, on average if it has fought until death, there one single unit Tommy left of average 1 unit with around 60hp left. But if it were 5 guys, 2 on average lived.

    Essentially by default they are even better than Grenadiers, and having the additional man makes them even greater than Grenadiers overall especially with MG42 upgrade which makes it become a duel essentially.

    I did then 5 Volks models vs 4 Tommy models Long range with bolt actions.

    Tommy won with much more ease than against Grenadiers, 2 Tommies were left alive on average

    For an interesting test Grenadier (4 models) with MG42 vs Tommy (4 models) with one Bren Gun.

    It was quite a duel but when you compare the damage sustained from either side, Bren gun seemed to be more accurate and consistent due to the fact they were behind cover and get a bonus, do not know how big the difference but it was doing better than MG42. Grenadiers lost. 1 Tommy standing

    Then a test between a Grenadier with MG42 and Tommy with only bolt actions

    Grenadiers won, with on average 1 to 2 guys staying alive. More times one model left.

    These tests are only long range, if any closer, say Grenadier and Tommy or Volks vs Tommy, Tommy has a better win success rate due to rate of fire increase when behind cover. The closer, the easier it becomes for Tommies to place shots quicker.

    I have not done tests in the open or without cover, but in many scenarios there is at least, always some cover around.


    Conclusion
    In conclusion, although Tommies are more costy, costs 280 manpower, they are considerably better in many situations that makes them more or less better than axis base units making them useless only in the mid-late game. The only chance the base units stand a chance is usually Early to Mid game if they upgrade their weapons, which axis can do earlier than allies.

    But as soon as the British Gets a Bolster Squad, it becomes tougher, and even more tougher when they have a weapon upgrade, but becomes even more formidable when having two Bren guns. It simply has too many upgrades that makes it more stronger in the long run, overall.

    Volks however with STG can be more aggressive in the beginning to mid but as soon as there are 5 tommies with Bren, Tommie's stands a chance already in all ranges against Volks. Tommies then have a better chance.

    I feel that having both the weapon upgrades and bolster squad just makes them overall cost efficient in the long, especially with the abilities that goes along with it. It is, if not the best base unit in the game, quite versatile although lacks AT.

    My counter as Wehrmacht I usually buy mainly support weapons, start with 1 HMG, buy only 1 to 2 grenadiers in the beginning, save manpower, of course during that period, you leave yourself exposed by doing this. Tech Up. Then buy units that can counter best as Wehrmacht which is Panzergrenadiers, if you heavily rely on Grenadiers, you will lose, mostly definitely because it is such a manpower drain when you keeping losing more men than you inflict.

    MG42 weapon upgrade for Grenadier has a bug, that is why I do not like to rely on the Grenadier that much. Volks are more consistent with their upgrade.

    I feel that Wehrmacht stands a better overall chance than OKW. I feel OKW is not that good in my opinion in comparison to Wehrmacht if handled correctly. Yes, their survivability is the weakest of all factions but it does better due to the fact that it has access to better support weapons and AT in the beginning which makes them better than OKW which is vulnerable in the beginning. OKW has only the upper hand in comparison to Wehrmacht mostly early game , but mid becomes varied particulary against Brits.

    I feel as OKW, there are less options to counter Brits. Mid to Late game against Tommies vs Volksgrenadiers, Volks just become useless in my opinion when Tommies are 5 man, medkit, Two Bren Guns. Can not even counter, even when surprising them close range which does better than engaging from a distance, does not really give Volks the upper hand, it becomes a duel.

    Even then, OKW does not have many vehicle choices that counters infantry properly. Only the FHT which is good against infantry but survivability is weak. PanzerIV seems like the only option against infantry because it is durable. Walking Stuka too, but that can be a heavy gamble. Even then than the lack of accessible base infantry units to deal with their superiority in the long run. The fact Obers comes too late is another factor, Maybe it should come on Mechanized Base instead, to give it a proper chance of more usuage and to withstand Tommies.

    Essentially The Last Base of OKW, you just want to get straight to the Tanks. Not to buy Obers only. Otherwise you to save up to around 700 manpower, if I want to essentially buy Obers than PanzerIV's in order to counter late game. It just leaves a time gap of huge exposure, it is difficult to get Obers. I think they should come on Mechanized Base instead.

    That is how I see it. It is not impossible but the British becomes such a formidable force if you do not pick the right units and do not make the right moves. This will then ultimately decide the outcome of the game.

    Have not finished all kinds of tests, just based on scenarios that occur frequently. Cover gameplay mostly. In the open no problem for Tommies as long as they are 5 guys with a Bren gun, better two.

    I think there should be a limit in terms of multiple upgrades for the British specifically, because that heavy investment turns the tides of the game which is something the axis infantry units especially other allied factions do not have. UKF upgrades are too much at once. Should be limited in some ways. Like a Dilemma especially for infantry upgrades.

    More tests will be conducted if deemed necessary.

  • #37
    9 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 694
    I just looked at the dps of lmg 42 vs bren. Lmg has higher dps. 6 to 8 i believe it was. The base tommies are good but still the cost more. Just 60hp left on a single model sounds right with the price difference initialy.
  • #38
    9 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Also keep in mind the lm42 is better because grens can only ever buy 1 per squad and its mutually exclusive with any durability upgrades. It's purpose is to help offset the low model count of grens as it focuses the dps on a single model so losing models don't nuke DPS quite as much
  • #39
    9 months ago
    BloodygoodBloodygood Posts: 77

    The FHT's survivability is in my opinion almost second to none. It has a complete get of jail free card in the form of instant smoke dropping. Makes them incredibly difficult to kill. They're basically like a bofors on wheels with smoke. I'd be ok with an armor buff if you removed this piece of no skill buffoonery

  • #40
    9 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 200

    @Bloodygood said:
    The FHT's survivability is in my opinion almost second to none. It has a complete get of jail free card in the form of instant smoke dropping. Makes them incredibly difficult to kill. They're basically like a bofors on wheels with smoke. I'd be ok with an armor buff if you removed this piece of no skill buffoonery

    I think it is fine the way it is actually. If it were to be removed the smoke, health should be increased because OKW does not have enough good vehicles that focus on AI. I really do NOT think changes are needed at all. It is fine the way it is.

    Smoke is good, but not impossible to counter, just try aiming manually with an AT gun, it works well.

    Its American counterpart although I think it does not have smoke, it is more mobile and can shoot on the move whilst the OKW FHT, has to be stationary which the Amercian AA can do in order to excel its damage. I think the American AA is more devastating as it can rush which FHT can not do as much.

    USF and UKF have more vehicles that have smoke than Axis. Wehrmacht only when they have a doctrine that includes "panzer tactican" smoke. The only to vehicles OKW has smoke with is Puma and FHT. USF has more vehicles than 2 vehicles that have. Even Sherman has smoke, Comet can use phosphorous shot as smoke.

    I do not think it needs changes!

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