USF riflemen cost effectiveness?

#1
5 months ago
The Big Red 1The Big R… Daly City, CA, USAPosts: 681

i keep hearing a lot of chatter on the forums saying that you are not getting your ManPower's worth when using USF RifleMen if so what needs to be done in order to justify its 280 MP cost? from what i gathered the whole able to use multiple weapons is not enough and that one is paying more than you are getting in contrast to the other faction's core infantry. unless i am wrong that is.

Comments

  • #2
    5 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017

    The problem is not getting 280 MP out of Riflemen. It's getting more than 250 MP out of Volksgrenadiers. They're OP and it's fucking up infantry balance and making all other mainlines look comparatively weak.

  • #3
    5 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 393

    Agree, Volk can do anything for their cost make other mainline look weak. Cant believe Volk again alot of utility and firepower but not gain cost.

  • #4
    5 months ago
    The Big Red 1The Big R… Daly City, CA, USAPosts: 681

    @C3Tooth said:
    Agree, Volk can do anything for their cost make other mainline look weak. Cant believe Volk again alot of utility and firepower but not gain cost.

    so in your learned opinion what would you want to do? tell me.

  • #5
    5 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 393

    I dont know, its up to the balance team

  • #6
    5 months ago
    The Big Red 1The Big R… Daly City, CA, USAPosts: 681

    @Lazarus said:
    The problem is not getting 280 MP out of Riflemen. It's getting more than 250 MP out of Volksgrenadiers. They're OP and it's fucking up infantry balance and making all other mainlines look comparatively weak.

    so in your learned opinion what would you want to do in their shoes? tell me.

  • #7
    5 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017

    Easy. Remove Volks vet 1 RA bonus, remove the STG package and drop them down to 240 MP. Volks will be much weaker so Riflemen won't need a buff.

  • #8
    5 months ago
    The Big Red 1The Big R… Daly City, CA, USAPosts: 681

    @Lazarus said:
    Easy. Remove Volks vet 1 RA bonus, remove the STG package and drop them down to 240 MP. Volks will be much weaker so Riflemen won't need a buff.

    that could work but what about RM? is the 280MP still worth the cost? are you getting your "money's worth" out of them? that is the hard question. the same can be said for the other core infantry.

  • #9
    5 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017

    As long as you aren't fighting Volks, yes. You get 280 MP out of them.

  • #10
    5 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 393

    Cons vs Gren
    Early game: Cons dominates Gren with number, at any range. Being 6men and able to build cover vs 4men
    Mid game: Gren starts to gain 1 or 2 LMG42, this is their equal state
    Late game: Gren dominate with their LMG & vet. Cons become support weapon team by merge and sight

    RM vs Gren
    Early game: Gren has better number of squad, RM has better number of men in a squad. This make them fairly equal.
    Mid game: Gren starts to gain 1 or 2 LMG42, RM have to use 300mp to tech weaponrack to get 2 Bars and grenades, with its enough for OKW to get another Gren. This is when Gren better than RM
    Late game: RM able to pick 2 Bars per squad. This is when RM better than Gren

    RM vs Volk
    Early game: Volk dominates RM with number for their cheaper price with the help of Sturm as a starter. Being 5men RM vs 5men Volk able to build cover.
    Mid game: Volk starts to gain 2 or 4 Stg44, RM have to use 300mp to tech weaponrack to get 2 Bars and grenades, with its enough for OKW to get another Volk. Even not outgun, though RM still get out numbered.
    -> Volk dominate both Early & Mid game. This lead to the lack of resource for USF.

    Cons vs Volk
    Early game: Cons is slightly better with number. Being 6men vs 5men, both in cover.
    Mid game: Volk starts to gain 2 or 4 Stg44 with free snare & free flamenade. Cons have to use 200mp to tech snare & flamenade. And Cons not even have any gunupgrade.
    -> Cons can not dominate Volk in Early game, but Volk dominate Cons since Mid game. And Cons have no answer back at Late game

  • #11
    5 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235
    edited January 28

    Rifleman is not the problem in my opinion.
    Volkz grens is just too cost effective while doing a lot more vs Rifleman.
    Balance team need to remove STG make it like Conscript basically they should be conscript copy, not Better Rifleman which currently what it does now.
    Zero side tech and Very Cheap both Recruitment/Reinforcement/STG

  • #12
    5 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 393

    Honestly I would prefer to have OKW light tanks get a good buff, rather than Volk being too effective.
    Why? Volk spam is enough for OKW to save their fuel for Medium. Nerf down Volk force them to bring in Light.
    Just like USF, Light is a must in their gameplay.

  • #13
    5 months ago
    The Big Red 1The Big R… Daly City, CA, USAPosts: 681
    edited February 15

    @Xloss said:
    Rifleman is not the problem in my opinion.
    Volkz grens is just too cost effective while doing a lot more vs Rifleman.
    Balance team need to remove STG make it like Conscript basically they should be conscript copy, not Better Rifleman which currently what it does now.
    Zero side tech and Very Cheap both Recruitment/Reinforcement/STG

    it sounds like RM need to have either one of these things not all which is:
    1. make RM cheaper to train (from 280 MP to 260?)
    or
    2. reduce reinforcement cost
    or
    3. increase base damage of the standard weapons they get (their M1 rifles not BARs from 8 to 10 source: https://www.coh2db.com/stats/#10) in order to justify their 280 MP cost since volks kar98k weapon damage is 12.

  • #14
    3 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 197
    Idk I usually dont notice a problem facing them if I get In close range. I do notice i get stomped when they upgrade stg44 and do t even have to be in allied territory minded you.

    I usually am ok if I can get bars but once they get vet it is all over and I have no way of squad wiping them like I seem to get.
  • #15
    3 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,802

    for how much you need to pay to get them to peak performance they are underwhelming, but on the other hand if you can slam enough muni into them they become incredible.

    as with most balance issues since WFA release the main issue in balance here is volks.
    i do belive swapping the STGs volks have with the mp40s from doctrines would do a wonder for balance SO LONG as obers can come a bit sooner.
    but we mustnt ignore gren balance either who get hopelessly smashed by decked out rifles

    i would propose the following:
    -move snare to grenade tech
    -replace snares with an ability that increases ROF on the move but slightly increases target size (small muni cost, say 20MU and idk 20% more ROF and 10% target size debuff?)
    -drop to 1 weapon slot
    -vet 2 or 3 increases slots back to 2
    -BAR price reduced slightly

    reasoning:
    -this means even if you lose your rifles and have to replace them you can have the much needed snare, but its not handed out either
    -new vet 1 ability promotes mobility but its still not ideal to do without cover
    -by dropping to 1 slot they dont reach critical mass quite as soon, by needing vet for a 2nd slot they dont have a massive jump in power and it also disallows fresh rifles to be nearly as good as vetted ones.
    -the price reduction is to slightly offset the power barrier by making them more accessible and also leave room for more versatility in using abilities.

  • #16
    3 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 197
    I can agree with a simple snare lock behinde grenade tech which also gives incentive to not skip over it and frees up what I feel is a waste of vet that only has 3 to begin with and is much more impacted.

    The ability I am not sold on and anyway it is saposed to be a mobility insentive on the move yet I am an easier target to get hit which is easier to be wiped upon being focus fired out of cover which focus fire happens alot and if you use it as I am going to sit behinde green cover because of it or Inside a bunker and catch a grenade or mortar easier wipe yet again so I dont see it the same I guess. It dont feel like yah I got a vet bonus when it comes with negatives besides the more complicated it becomes I'm sure to balance.

    Example:

    It would be like saying panther gets armor buff but speed reduction yay woohoo I got vet.. just as I was running away from that at gun dam. Then then try to rebalance that.

    If you want to separate the whole how many slots I can equip and extend it out longer into game play make it a two stage weapon rack system but still allow the option of bazooka or bar just impacts how many to equip.

    maybe you cant get a second until an officer comes out, This however makes it harder to choose exactly which infantry you want to double up on and forces you to spread it out a little bit at least in beginning so you might not have dedicated anti infantry sections or anti tank sections but still doable and would do the trick without being stuck with only 1 weapon late game while your enemy is loaded and vet ready to go and you cant get a second weapon until you vet, I can only imagin going out with only 1 bazooka when you really need the at.
    Here ya go boy if ya survive I'll gladly hand ya mine.
  • #17
    3 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,802
    The idea with the small drawback (10% isn't that large really) is that you would be inclined to use cover while doing it to mitigate the extra incoming fire. The thought is you use to to flank. You ideally won't be using it with a line squad who CAN be focus fired. If you pop it on a chase for example you get 20% more shots off. Or if you pop it and do draw fire while moving up you draw the fire off another squad who is free to use it. It would allow for more aggressive play and certainly be more useful than the snare.
    I want a drawback so it's not a no Brainer but a tactical choice.

    As for the weapon slots, RE would retain their 2 slots. Rifles would just have their power jump smoothed out so they could be adjusted knowing that on top of how strong you make them they can't suddenly also have 2 BARs as well. They need to be viable with or without BARs and I think making BARs less the center piece and returning rifles to the spot light is the way to go about that.
  • #18
    3 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 197
    edited March 23
    Move one of the other vet buffs down a notch and vet 2 slight increase to movement speed half that of officers and as well I would do the same with officers vet 2 half the current speed allowing rifleman to support the officers better. Allows for quickly changing positions and encouraging micro as well as flanking and subsequent returns to the battlefield upon going back to base to equip weapons while also unlocking second weapon slot and better at keeping up with allied vehicles during combined arms tactics commander ability.

    Tactical decision do you stay with your slow 50 cal for suppressive support or utilize your mobility.

    Do you grab the 50 cal to begin With or do you Invest In a aaht instead that can keep up at the cost of not haveing a tank right away.
  • #19
    3 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 186

    I feel the Riflemen can really do bad in the beginning. The only opportunity is to either get close to mid range to excel. I think USF particularly has a hard time against OKW mainly when the volks units are upgraded. It be nice if there were some changes in the dymnamics of the game since there are some areas which are unbalanced. They do particularly well against axis as long as they do not get their upgrades mostly against Wehrmacht. It feels frustrating the way it is. I really do not know what changes would be best suited for Riflemen as it is difficult to determine. Maybe unit cost to 260. I mean they perform better than Volks and Grens by default.

    It should be Ranking according to how it performs by default. Default units according to how they should be priced from lowest to highest.

    1. Conscripts should be 230
    2. Grenadiers 240
    3. Volks 250
    4. Riflemen should be 260 at least
    5. Tommies 280, i think Vickers should also be 280.

    That is how it should be measured I suppose.

  • #20
    3 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 186

    I have an idea for different teching for infantry units for OKW. Restructure OKW units for balancing purposes.

    Change Volks particularly and maybe Sturmpio.

    From 5 models to 4 models by default.
    Infantry base damage Karbine98 increased from 12 to 16 damage.
    Have also a "infantry bolster squad" package available like UKF in order to increase model size, same price or more, depends.
    Weapon upgrade instead is MP40, maybe take away STG package, it depends.
    Take fire grenade away for a normal grenade by default. Make it more of an AI or one kind of unit instead of versatile both kind of unit.
    Kar98 long or MP40 short range focus options.

    Volks with Kar98, similar to Tommies, should cost if changed to that way to 280 manpower. Like Tommies, when behind cover, get instead accuracy boost, decrease rate of fire, faster reload, to make it more interesting. Should have similar stats to Tommies. Get one normal Steilhandgranate like what Panzerfusiliers have. Maybe should have upgrade for longer range MG34 to make it more accessible, should be available when you have either Mechanized base or Panzer Korp base. SHOULD HAVE PANZERFAUST for long ranged unit.

    Volks with upgrade MP40, they still get behind cover boost but instead of the Steilhandgranate get the Fire grenade, makes sense since they are to be more aggressive. No smoke grenade since it would be too OP. Package should cost 60 ammo max. SHOULD NOT HAVE PANZERFAUST for short range unit.

    The only unit that would have STGs is Sturmpio, can increase model to 5 man squad also which would be costy for them still. Have to make a grenade at least available to them, do not know exactly which, maybe stun grenade available only when Vet1 or something else. It is fair since Volks in reality were not all deadly or experienced or that versatile as they seem in game. They did in reality have short range firepower, so I think it would better for them if they only got MP40 package as an option instead. Sounds great right.

    SO in this sense it wont make Volks a such a versatile unit.

    You have a choice between upgraded MP40 for Flame nade for aggressive push AI purposes
    or
    Default K98 long range for a Panzerfaust.

    What you guys think about this for a balance or change?

  • #21
    3 months ago
    namvnnamvn Posts: 6
    edited April 16

    fix Rifleman as follow:

    • make snare available with Grenade upgrade.
    • snare animation run slightly faster.

    Everyone says Rifleman need 2 BARs to perform at their best, does that mean m1 garand suck? should a semi-auto rifle do better vs bolt-action rifle by some margin in the beginning? This also need to be looked at.

  • #22
    3 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 197
    edited April 16
    I do agree with grenade tech rifle grenades to match axis/Soviet counterparts.

    As far as rifleman needing bar ya that's do to lack of non doctrine elites and the amount of bars needed varies depending on what your going against with the general rule long range is a bad idea and watch out for specialized close range units. M1 garand does not suck but you have to be within a certain range pocket per say.

    This does however mean usf is more ammunition dependent.

    Same with volks and other long range units etcetra they need to stay the distance and sturms keeps you from wanting to approach when used in unison.

    Rifleman overall sit pretty good and dont need to much change.

    As far as needing any manpower or reinforcement changes I couldn't say.

    Simply makeing them 275 manpower though would at the very beginning of the match allow you to que another as soon as the first is finished as currently their is a slight waiting period even if just for the convenience of it and nothing els.
  • #23
    2 weeks ago
    The Big Red 1The Big R… Daly City, CA, USAPosts: 681

    whatever the reason if what you all say is true than volks have to be nerfed a bit or RM get buffed by a small margin enough to be as "cost effective" as volks. because as you say you get more "bang for your buck" when you use volks. i can say this by personal experience against both comps and humans.

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