Panther tank is useless

24

Comments

  • #32
    6 months ago
    Unlike firefly, elephant come in a doctrine that alow tank to spot by themselves, so you event dont have to put a unit in front of it to work. Easy, right ?
  • #33
    6 months ago
    Ap round is on the Jackson only, but it is there to allow USF to counter axis heavy and super heavy, due to the fact that USF stock medium and AT gun is suck.
  • #34
    6 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    > @Balanced_Gamer said
    > Tell me, can a Panther do that at all with its guns too?

    Thanks another video proof of panther weak performance. A unit that consistently needs to stay on the move, consistently misses it shot while moving. Its weaken side-rear armor allow all allies tank to consistently pen for 160 damage. Pretty clear how easy to lose panthers considering it costs to rebuild.

    It makes no sense allies TD can have the pen and range and accuracy, not much player skills needed. Using panther need a roll for accuracy and pen. Hence a vet3 firefly often win a vet3 panthers 1v1, much worse in real unit composition matches. try yourself with the cheat mod, switch between both tanks against expert AI. The 960 hp and armor skirts are clearly just padding on a dung.
  • #35
    6 months ago
    DarjeelingMK7Darjeelin… Posts: 244
    edited February 26

    yet, still deni the fact i pointed out about Comet VS panther in that video.

  • #36
    6 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited February 26

    @DarjeelingMK7 said:
    Unlike firefly, elephant come in a doctrine that alow tank to spot by themselves, so you event dont have to put a unit in front of it to work. Easy, right ?

    I mentioned the elefant before, it was what kept axis 2v2 in the games for the last pro championship. Desperately hanging to it. Without it, it will have been a complete white wash. But it's not enough, we still need a stug buff. Elefant is so late and resources hog and does not outrange or spot tanks, nope. And you probably can't afford another panther and need your team mates to cover the pushing duties. Hence a better stug is needed. Period.

  • #37
    6 months ago

    at 47:50 in the replay: 2 panther charge straight in 1 firefly + 2 AT + 1 comet nearby. The command panther take 2 tulip rocket and 2 AT shoot, 1 comet shoot, yet survive. Firefly dead. Command panther escape. Comet dead shortly after.
    yet you still crying about panther ability to survive.

  • #38
    6 months ago

    talking about skill, micro two tank with different speed, such as a firefly and a churchill, or a firefly and a comet, take alot more effort than select 2 panther then right click.

  • #39
    6 months ago
    DarjeelingMK7Darjeelin… Posts: 244
    edited February 26

    Fun fact: micro a firefly to revert corectly while mantaining sight for it actualy more difficult than maker a panther move forward.

  • #40
    6 months ago
    DarjeelingMK7Darjeelin… Posts: 244
    edited February 26

    @mrgame2 said:

    @DarjeelingMK7 said:
    Unlike firefly, elephant come in a doctrine that alow tank to spot by themselves, so you event dont have to put a unit in front of it to work. Easy, right ?

    I mentioned the elefant before, it was what kept axis 2v2 in the games for the last pro championship. Desperately hanging to it. Without it, it will have been a complete white wash. But it's not enough, we still need a stug buff. Elefant is so late and resources hog and does not outrange or spot tanks, nope. And you probably can't afford another panther and need your team mates to cover the pushing duties. Hence a better stug is needed. Period.

    if ellefant dont out range is 2 or churchill, i,m speechless. With a scoped scout car nearby, the elefant can shoot throught a haft of a 2v2 map, and that is after a neft for scoped scout car, it used to see 2/3 of the map. put a scoped scout car nearby the elefant is a minimun thing you have to do and it dont event require micro.

    you said axis Desperately hanging to elefant, i can say the same for alies. Alies is Desperately hanging on TD because their medium is suck. When brit player built 2 firefly, it not that he want it, but he have to do it if dont wat to be swamped by Pz4 and panther.

  • #41
    6 months ago

    basic L2P.

  • #42
    6 months ago

    as i said, further buff stug is impossible without make it too unrealistic, due to natural of the unit is a basic AT gun on a cheap platfom. If you want some thing better, the only way is too add a new unit like the jagd panther, but if that happened, alies must receive some thing, too.

  • #43
    6 months ago

    Jagd panther, if find way into the game, must be at about 170 fuel, and it will have 60 range and pen of a panther, may be a little more (they use same gun). While that happen, alies must have new super heavy, such as super persing for US or A39 tortoise for UKF. Can you accept that.

  • #44
    6 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    L2p when pro players struggle with wehr? I think not. I like to see 3 stugs take out a is2 like those m10. Why stug need to be so useless unlike similarly priced m10, only relic knows this slip through.
  • #45
    6 months ago
    DarjeelingMK7Darjeelin… Posts: 244
    edited February 26

    3 stug actualy shut down a churchill, and as i said a lot of time, it is the natural of stug to be a basic AT gun on a cheap platfom. Again nonsense compairing stock stug to doctrinal M10 and ask stug to counter ailes haviest doctrinal.

  • #46
    6 months ago

    Stug can work again stock heavy like churchill, but for some thing like an IS 2, you must actualy pick some doc and built proper counter like elefant or pak 43.

    L2P i mentioned here is using unit for it's intended puporse, not giving it a task that belong to another unit and said that it cant do shit.

  • #47
    6 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,821
    > @mrgame2 said:
    > Yet firefly is cheaper than panther, take up less pop, have longer range and damage. You see firefly need not move as often as panther. Im not convince about firefly shot time, going to test out in command cheat mod.

    Its cheaper because its: slower moving, slower reloading, less armored, single purpose and has less health. It has more range and more damage but it's only job is to kill axis armour. Believe it or not using axis armour to try and kill them head on isnt going to work well. Fighting any fight with 2 to 1 odds isn't going to go well. Hell, if the panthers WON, then THAT would be a balance issue. Not them losing, out numbered and against their hard counters...
  • #48
    6 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    Panther only job is to kill the heavily armored allies, well it's not as effective as allies right now. It needs to move much more often, yet its move accuracy is no better than sniping allies td, its gun has wind down time delay, its 2nd half armor gets pen easily by all allies tanks when it is trying to micro the heavy frontal allies armor.

    Just play with the cheatmod, vet3 firefly vs vet3 panther on expert ai, and tell me which is better.
  • #49
    6 months ago
    And panther do it's job, it do kill everything upto a churchill. Yet you want it to become the ultimate tank can win again it only counter.
  • #50
    6 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 543
    Last time i tried Random match mode, 2 Panthers rush to 2 Firefly's rear and kill both, only to die because of Penal on Panther retreat path.

    Compare in Cheat mod between 2 tanks are just about Pen/Armor/Hp.

    Why dont u put Panther 60m away from Firefly and see FF can destroy Panther without losing health to prove FF is much better than Pant? Yes FF has 10m more range advantage.

    Why dont u try Pant does a circle to FF and see FF will not able to shoot Pant? Yes Pant has speed advantage.

    Why dont u try to let them shoot to each other rear armor and see Pant takes 19.5sec to destroy a FF, but FF takes 40sec to destroy a Pant? Yes Pant has health advantage.

    Why dont u try to let each of them shoot a T34 to see Pant takes 19.5sec to destrot a T34 but FF takes 24sec? Yes Pant has reload speed advantage.
  • #51
    6 months ago
    Anyone can explain to me about that "wind down" shit he keep repeating? I dont get it.
  • #52
    6 months ago
    With it's speed, panther can actually avoid to get shoot from firefly. After the fist shot, if the panther still close in with max speed and circle around, firefly cant take the second shoot due to it super slow turret traverse.
  • #53
    6 months ago
    And, C3, you forgot about that in order to take 10 range advantage, firefly required spotter. In cheat mod, at 60 range, if we turn on fow, firefly and panther wont do anything to each other.
  • #54
    6 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited February 26

    No just play the cheat mod, take turns playing as panther and firefly, and you see how hard panther can kill firefly simply because it needs to move into range, while firefly can stay still and snipe. Just play around, proof is all there, dont just look at the stats.

    Vet3 firefly is better then Vet3 panther.
    Vet3 Jackson is better than Vet3 panther.
    In real games, Allies just need to wait out the VP so long they get their TDs up. Allies infantry simply stomp on Wehr. And now Wehr tanks cant even one up Allies TD and heavies.

    Wehr has a very small early game window, get a P4 out asap and try to win. This gets harder from 2v2 and up. Just look at the number of comeback matches from allies these days. Wehr can have a 300 VP lead, and still loses or narrow win. It is all out there guys.

    It is now down to Relic to admit the Wehr faction needs a relook.

  • #55
    6 months ago

    I totally see the point. You stated that the Comet lost the engagement against but you can clearly see that it is due to the fact he made a wrong move by making his damaged Comet tank (with less hp than the other) engage two Panthers alone during that period 42:23 - 42:35.

    Also see how many times it took until the Panthers shot registered beginning of the engagement 41:41, Panthers 3 shots (if include the first shot that either missed or ricochet that you see a little 41:41 from Panther) ricochet the Comet then 2 missed shots, taking until 6 shots 42:02 to place a shot on Comet.

    Comets engagement 41:41, both anti-tank gun and Comet shot either missed or ricochet Panther, its shot after 2nd shot penetrated the Panther, 3rd shot from other Comet penetrated 41:58, 4th shot ricochet, 5th shot penetrated 42:06, 6th shot even penetrated Panther 42:18 until it screwed itself over thus giving the Axis the Win in that engagement barely surviving. But can see how often the shots miss or ricochet in comparison!!!

    Of course in other engagements it would be different but you can clearly see the distinction and how often the other tank penetrates the other but the main highlight is the fact Comet stands out more than Panther does in many ways. If I had a choice, I would pick Comet because it clearly shows its stronger than Panther for the same price, overall more versatile which Panther utterly lacks. What the match you easily see the difference.

    In the video, the axis player had to go offensive against the Comet due to the fact it was killing his infantry with ease. He had to counter them with the only tank available to axis in order to push forward. The aftermath of the game, despite his hard attempts, British being overall much stronger with both ant-infantry and anti-tank capabilities despite its difficulties (which oberkommando suffers, maybe more), Brits won anyway.

    I am not trying to ignore the fact that Panther is strong but it is quite obvious that the Comet being its counterpart "brother from another ..." is way superior in comparison has a bit more health (but does not necessarily make it a great tank). Comet can stand alone against infantry and even deal 1v1 vs an anti-tank gun quickly in comparison to a Panther which relies heavily on movement which makes it all the more vulnerable and more reliant on support.

    If it is only meant for AT purposes only, then it should penetrate Comet more often or miss less often because as it stands now. It is useless in comparison to the Comet.

    On the forum ALLIES TANKS NEED A REAR ARMOUR NERF OR... **mrgame2 **mentions armour differences, look to differences between Comet and Panther.

    Despite the skills Findeed had in the game, you can clearly see Oberkommando being constantly countered, its Raktenwerfers being taken out quickly and being stolen like 2 or 3 times. This clearly gave UKF a huge advantage in the game because OKW lacked AA when it comes down to majority of the vehicles.

    DARJEELINGMK7 compared it (also Firefly which I will mention) to a PanzerIV having firepower against infantry, it is not such a good tank because it takes 4 shots, armour not being the greatest except for OKWs tank, but that is about it. It is not that deadly, a bit but not that versatile. Why compare it to a PanzerIV. You can also see that Cromwell (counterpart of PanzerIV has firepower against infantry) and Valentine especially AEC MK.III Armored Car (counterpart of Puma which does not have firepower against infantry) have devastating firepower against both infantry and vehicles. Axis only has PanzerIV as a versatile option, sucks at penetrating Comet and those heavier. Is it really worth it? But it really depends on the situation, AT its not that good, AA better than Panther for sure but better than Comet, I don't think so!

    You compared also the Firefly, it is cheaper than Comet,
    Upsides are range: range, cost, damage, vet bonuses which decreases reload time.
    Downsides: reload, manoeuvrability maybe but compare it Axis anti tank destroyers.

    Wehr Stug, cost effective, reload time has been increased, manoeuvrability terrible (rotation speed mostly) making it a tank that can be easily flanked. Same goes for the Jagdpanzer although it has the same gun as Panther, it seems to have a weaker gun overall than Panther (just appears to be so in game, I tried it), range and sight being a bit weaker than SU85 and way weaker than Firefly, reload better but does make it up for its downsides. Jagdpanzer has difficulties penetrating while Firefly has an easier time which is unfortunate I must so say because it really deserves better for its price being AT capability only sacrificing manoeuvrability, armour and health than for a Panther. :(. Same cost but performances poorly in comparison, who picks Jagdpanzer in comparison to Firefly? Go on cheat command mods, compare it for yourself. KV2 impenetrable, IS2 difficult, and Churchill. Test also Panther, you will see.

    Axis are heavily reliant on Panther as that has only one purpose, AT. This sacrifices a lot of AA firepower because of the huge investment and even then it can not penetrate some heavy tanks. AA is something really Axis lacks at times. Luchs for OKW is not that good, if you compare it to a T70 that has also better AA & AT capabilities against light vehicles which makes Luchs worse in many ways, excels only when stationary.

    With Firefly you can play super smart with it and exploit it with its superior range despite its reload time but through this technique you will have an easier time gaining veterancy. It always penetrates the Panther, and easily Penetrates the King Tiger too (odd isnt it!). As an Axis player against Heavy Tanks such as KV2, IS2, and Churchill, the Panther can hardly do the job especially when its only purposely used for AT capability.

    It should penetrate more often than it either misses or ricochets. With the Germans you have to play it smart, flank almost every time to gain the advantage which is something that Allies do not have to do very often unless they have medium tanks. Allies often have better support units than Axis. Often flanking can be a bad option because either you leave it exposed or hit a mine causing it to even be more vulnerable

    I think some balances are required, either increase Panthers capability against infantry with main gun to even out the odds (which leaves USF making a bit weak thus requiring them also to acquires buffs for vehicles) or simply increase AT penetration.

    OR

    Simply nerf some of the British vehicles since they are more versatile in every way than OKW and Wehr vehicles combined. Comet decrease either AA or AT so that it matches Panthers performance for its cost too because as I have stated, it is better and it is something which I would definitely pick over due to its better overall performance

    I also have evidence for Firefly penetrating King Tiger at ease which should be a heavy Tank right (in real life Firefly could not penetrate King Tiger since it could penetrate 150-163mm when King Tigers Armour is around 180mm when sloped which should not able to penetrate easily right?). Check Wikipedia ! Would you like videos/evidence for that too?

  • #56
    6 months ago

    You want cheat mod? Here you are.

    This is a Vet 3 firefly and a vet 3 panther 60 range away of each other, so, if i turn on the firefly, some guy will start crying about that out range shit.

    BUT, if i also turn on the fog of war, it be come like this.

    So, in order to have that "vet 3 firefly beat vet 3 panther 1v1" of MrGame, we have to put them like this:

    And this is the out come, panther not event lost 1/3 HP. No tullips

    With tullips, panther still win, close call, 1 tullip miss, but in real game hit both tullip at panther is impratical, i do have a time hit 2 tullip when testing but panther still win:



    => How can vet 3 firefly better than vet 3 panther WITHOUT SUPPORT ?????????

    Now move to vet 3 churchill vs vet 3 panther:

    Close in to give the churchill a better chance:

    => 2-0 for panther, no supride.

    2 panther vs Churchill + firefly, no vet.


    Shoot at the firefly = win, ez life panther.

    Bonus, 2 panther vs IS 2, no vet. (vet 1 is add up from the churchill/firefly before but it doesnt matter, just unlock blitz)


    => Nothing much to say.

    I did also test vet3 panther vs vet3 comet but accidentally delete the photo of dead comet, panther win anyway.

    You take me all of yesterday afternoon so stop talking bullshit about vet 3 panther lost to vet 3 firefly.

  • #57
    6 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    You should try to simulate as real in game conditions, meaning not keeping your tanks stationary....

    Place firefly and panther some distance apart, preferably firefly camping behind the vp like the meta now. Then turn the expert ai on. Try for both tanks, meaning if you use panther, you need to micro into firefly range to try kill it, if you are now firefly micro back to snipe the ai panther.

    You will see how much harder to kill the firefly as panther than the other way round
  • #58
    6 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 543

    You should try to simulate as real in game conditions, meaning not keeping your tanks stationary....

    Finally you get the point of "not stationary"

    I have a heavy spear, you have a light-weight sword. If you can figure out how to kill me with your light-weight sword
    Then you know how to kill FF with Panther.

    I can figure out how to kill an archer with a knife. Same with how to kill an Elephant with T70. Can you figure it out in Panther vs FF case?

    I sense with FF 10m more range, you always attempt to rush into enemy defensive position to kill FF. Which get Panther killed, and ignore the fact that there are more than just a single FF, and your push is nothing just a rushing Panther.
    If you afraid of superior Brit infantry. "Multiple rocket panzerwerfer" before an attack.

  • #59
    6 months ago

    Minimal micro effort.









  • #60
    6 months ago
    DarjeelingMK7Darjeelin… Posts: 244
    edited February 27

    do i have to do the same with churchill vs panther?

    Please, post some replay of yourself other than talking about how you cant use vet 3 panther to kill a firefly controlled by AI.

    Of course, cheat mod never can be as real as game. just close to. You i feel it seasy as fu*ck with the panther.

    the truth is, in real game, micro firefly backward while maintain sight is an art that you may never understand.

    if you paling alies like how you are talking now, i'm sure that you will be socked.

  • #61
    6 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    I can only say your experiment differs greatly from mine. I had them at max distance outside fog, set on expert ai, then micro the hell out of them, more often then not firefly survive. Its realistic when you think of it, panther hunting firefly from the dark, will release a shot once it comes into view, and this shot is 5050 to miss, while the firefly will volley back from stationery, most likely to hit for 240hp.

    Then its down to 3v4 hits advantage firefly.
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