[OKW] Raketenwerfer performance

#1
2 months ago
omar_empomar_emp United Arab EmiratesPosts: 511
edited February 5 in Balance Feedback

the raketenwerfer is over performing in many ways

1 , is that its available without any tech or upgrades and comes for a really low price for AT guns.

2, it comes ready with a ability and the ability is camouflage,the ability can be used for reasons or ways a AT gun shouldn't be doing , it became a really strong recon unit , even better than a sniper, doesn't need cover to camouflage moves at a really fast rate , and also can capture points while stealth

3,it ability to retreat at a very fast speed , so it can hit and run even faster than infantry movement speed, so when ever its in danger it easily just retreat out of combat

4, it shoots at a really fast speed, faster than ZIS-3 and Pak40, so you can move it in stealth mode to the enemy vehicle and hit it ,and have the chance to hit again without the the opponent having the time to react and fallback .also it can reposition or change angle at a very high speed,it also have a very fast tracking speed faster than other AT guns, which makes it really hard to flank it

the only drawback the raketenwerfer has that its just a have slightly less range that other AT guns,but thats not a real problem,as it have a extremely high penetration chance,and a really fast firing speed which can easily give mutiple succesful shots in time the vehicle is in the raketenwerfer range.

ways to be fixed:
fixing ability:raketenwerfer will only be stealth while in cover and stationary, and will go auto stealth as a passive ability, or a active ability which whenever raketenwerfer is stealth it wont be able to move at all

fixing fallback, as its the only AT Gun can fallback, it should have a drawback,of decreasing the reposition speed and making it slower in moving up the gun, and also slower in movement of retreat

«1345

Comments

  • #2
    2 months ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 231

    Been pointed out this for a long time..

    fixes

    1. Should be unlocked after setting up an truck, reduce the prise to 280MP
    2. Make the camo avalible from vet 1. Make it same speed as Soviets at-camo, no reason this unit should be able sprint around the map and provide sight for arty/zero arty or other things, OKW got uncounter skillflares in a commander if you need that.
    3. Think that can be left alone thought since it has no green cover for the at-crew.
    4. As it stats is for now it should lower the firerate to simulary as Zis and Pak40

    thats my thought, OKW and axis in overall has better at with tanks so shouldnt have the most effective at-gun as well that op in many cases..

  • #3
    2 months ago
    mrpeedmrpeed Posts: 22

    The main problem is the way it's camo functions. You should not be able to move while cloaked and you should have to be in cover to cloak. If the Raket is locked behind a truck than volks need a snare already unlocked.

  • #4
    2 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,258

    Camoflauging the Rak should disable retreat entirely. Disabling camo should take 5-10 seconds, and you aren't allowed to retreat until thats over.

    That's the big difference between ZiS camo and Rak. If you spot and reveal a camo'd ZiS with infantry, you'll probably steal it unless help is right there already. If its a Rak and you screwed up and someone finds it, you aren't punished at all cause you just click T. That is by far the dumbest thing about it, even more than the creeping.

    At least the creeping is SUPER slow, but there's no deterrent to being aggressive with them because they just pack up and leave if you over-extend them.

    Like a wide variety of units on OKWs roster, they seem to be designed to require as little micro/decision-making as possible.

  • #5
    2 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,006
    https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/245272/okw-any-raketenwerfer-camo/p1

    Still on the front page - still relevant. Rak camo is bullshit but between that, volks and Jaegers it appears Relic has no interest in balancing OKW.
  • #6
    2 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,716

    @Lazarus said:
    https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/245272/okw-any-raketenwerfer-camo/p1

    Still on the front page - still relevant. Rak camo is bullshit but between that, volks and Jaegers it appears Relic has no interest in balancing OKW.

    are you implying that building spawning, camoing, sprinting, 4 man sniper squads costing only 250mp isnt balanced? who could possibly think that?

  • #7
    2 months ago
    ARMYguyARMYguy Posts: 807
    edited February 6

    Its actually nice when someone spams JLI, cause i know how to counter it easily. Same with mech engineer spammers.

  • #8
    2 months ago
    XlossXloss Posts: 235
    edited February 7

    @ARMYguy said:
    Its actually nice when someone spams JLI, cause i know how to counter it easily. Same with mech engineer spammers.

    JLI is really hard to counter coz they spot you first.
    Mech engineer spam its not as good as Sturm pio spam.
    How does it feel if enemies got Automatic rifles/SMG at a start of the game?
    It feels awful specialy vs Dou OKW.

  • #9
    2 months ago

    @omar_emp The Raketenwerfer, unlike other AT guns, do not get Heavy Cover when set-up, and require static cover to benefit from cover saves, otherwise, it is incredibly vulnerable.

    My best suggestion would be to reduce the range of the Raketenwerfer by 25%. This would align the weapon's range to the ubiquitous Panzerschreck.

    Another suggestion would be to decrease the damage of the Raketenwerfer from 160 to 120 (The same damage model as the Puma and Panzerschreck). This would make it less of a threat to Medium and Heavy armour while still holding effectiveness against Light Armour.

    My final and least favourite suggestion would be to input a cost of 25 munitions to allow Raketenwerfers active camouflage, (With the upgrade retaining to the Raketenwerfer entity, not the crew that operates it)

    Any other nerf that is too drastic would destroy the OKW's early-game potential. The Raketenwerfer is an essential component of the OKW early on because it is quite literally, the only thing that can directly counter Scout Cars and Universal Carriers at a meagre cost.

  • #10
    2 months ago
    omar_empomar_emp United Arab EmiratesPosts: 511

    @MSAF_Unbekannt_15 said:
    @omar_emp The Raketenwerfer, unlike other AT guns, do not get Heavy Cover when set-up, and require static cover to benefit from cover saves, otherwise, it is incredibly vulnerable.

    My best suggestion would be to reduce the range of the Raketenwerfer by 25%. This would align the weapon's range to the ubiquitous Panzerschreck.

    Another suggestion would be to decrease the damage of the Raketenwerfer from 160 to 120 (The same damage model as the Puma and Panzerschreck). This would make it less of a threat to Medium and Heavy armour while still holding effectiveness against Light Armour.

    My final and least favourite suggestion would be to input a cost of 25 munitions to allow Raketenwerfers active camouflage, (With the upgrade retaining to the Raketenwerfer entity, not the crew that operates it)

    Any other nerf that is too drastic would destroy the OKW's early-game potential. The Raketenwerfer is an essential component of the OKW early on because it is quite literally, the only thing that can directly counter Scout Cars and Universal Carriers at a meagre cost.

    so what if no heavy cover in setup? when you cant even hit it, it just fallback really fast and they pack the gun up very very quickly.

    the idea of reducing damage is nice also the idea of range, but its camo ability is so OP and need to be defensive camo not assault camo

  • #11
    2 months ago
    YappirYappir Posts: 42

    Are you guys crazy?
    OKW literally has no AT. Raketenwerfer has damage of single panzershrek rocket. Panzergrenadiers team has twice as much AT firepower as raketenwerfer. It shorter range then pak 40 makes it very hard to use agaist things like centuar or T-70. Also its short range keeps puting it in risk of being stolen by the enemy and used agaist you.

    Yeah you can make 3 of them invisible and set a trap. but that reuire like.... 800 manpower spend on just AT department.
    Yeah it is invisible and all but again, you risk losing it.

    If you are losing as OKW and you have no fuel on tanks of your own. This tinny rocket luncher is only thing you have to defend yourself with and you guys want to take it away.

    Uhhh.... No.

  • #12
    2 months ago
    The damage and range aren't problems but the camo need to go.
  • #13
    2 months ago
    YappirYappir Posts: 42

    but if we remove the camo then how do you imagine attacking a tank with raketenwerfer if it outranges you. As soon as it sees you it will start runing away and your short range will not allow to attack it from the distance like pak 40.

  • #14
    2 months ago
    omar_empomar_emp United Arab EmiratesPosts: 511

    @Yappir said:
    Are you guys crazy?
    OKW literally has no AT. Raketenwerfer has damage of single panzershrek rocket. Panzergrenadiers team has twice as much AT firepower as raketenwerfer. It shorter range then pak 40 makes it very hard to use agaist things like centuar or T-70. Also its short range keeps puting it in risk of being stolen by the enemy and used agaist you.

    Yeah you can make 3 of them invisible and set a trap. but that reuire like.... 800 manpower spend on just AT department.
    Yeah it is invisible and all but again, you risk losing it.

    If you are losing as OKW and you have no fuel on tanks of your own. This tinny rocket luncher is only thing you have to defend yourself with and you guys want to take it away.

    Uhhh.... No.

    u talking about shorter range are u joking? just 5 meters less doesn't even do a difference, and no it doesnt have damage of a single panzershreck your wrong its damage is 160 while panzershreck is 120 ,against centaur really? it can reposition so fast like soooo fast and can reload even faster and track vehicles very fast which atleast well score 2-3 shots into centaur easily , and no one can steal a raketenwerfer , just fall it back press T and its gone in seconds,

    only thing AT lol?, i once had a comet,crocodile and a firefly, lost crocodile,comet to 3 raketenwerfers only , even if you smoke it with crocodile Smoke round it can attack ground and hit you, and it got a amazing penetration.so about your 800MP killed about 1000MP and about 400FUEL at ease. and some Use its Camo for recon or attacking or capturing it should be removed
    also
    OKW have lot of OP AT , sturmpioneers AT, jagdpanzer,panther, and volks panzerfuasts (panzerfusillers AT nade) (FJR fausts) thats all AT i remember.

  • #15
    2 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,006

    @Yappir said:
    Are you guys crazy?
    OKW literally has no AT. Raketenwerfer has damage of single panzershrek rocket.

    No it doesn't. Panzerschrecks do 120 damage (6 shots to kill a medium tank). Raketenwerfers (and all AT Guns) do 160 damage (4 shots to kill a medium tank).

  • #16
    2 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,258
    > @Yappir said:
    > Are you guys crazy?
    > OKW literally has no AT.

    They literally have shrecks, the Puma, JP4, and Panther. That's more options than US even if you don't include the Rak43
  • #17
    2 months ago
    YappirYappir Posts: 42
    edited February 10

    @Yappir said:

    If you are losing as OKW and you have no fuel on tanks of your own. This tinny rocket luncher is only thing you have to defend yourself with and you guys want to take it away.

    Don't give me examples of tanks becouse i know they are there! Point is that if you are losing you can't outproduce tanks becouse you are on the back foot.

    Also yeah single shrek roket is not as strong but still PzGrens have still much bigger dmg output then raketenwerfer.
    Raketen CANNOT be used in mid-late game with out of camo. It will be gunned down as soon it is seen. It will nto even fire back becouse of its short range. Enemy has to GET CLOSE ENOUGH and in order to do so he has to NOT BE AWARE OF THE DANGER.

  • #18
    2 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,716
    OKW can field AT no matter how much fuel they managed to scrape together. Puma is like 70 fuel iirc, jp4 is 135(?) and then obviously the panther. Don't want to use fuel? Get a Rak. Or a Shrek. Okw is probably the most well equipped to get SOME at out tied with the Soviet.
  • #19
    2 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,006

    @Yappir said:

    @Yappir said:

    If you are losing as OKW and you have no fuel on tanks of your own. This tinny rocket luncher is only thing you have to defend yourself with and you guys want to take it away.

    Don't give me examples of tanks becouse i know they are there! Point is that if you are losing you can't outproduce tanks becouse you are on the back foot.

    Also yeah single shrek roket is not as strong but still PzGrens have still much bigger dmg output then raketenwerfer.
    Raketen CANNOT be used in mid-late game with out of camo. It will be gunned down as soon it is seen. It will nto even fire back becouse of its short range. Enemy has to GET CLOSE ENOUGH and in order to do so he has to NOT BE AWARE OF THE DANGER.

    If you think Schrecks are better than Raketenwerfers, then just build Sturmpioneers and give them Panzerschrecks

  • #20
    2 months ago
    With the short range, The rak can have camo, but it should be the NORMAL one, the camo that require COVER and CANT MOVE WHILE ACTIVE.
    Rak's camo is definitely being abused for now. OKW is the only faction have map hack with the infrare HT now and yet they still get free sight and steath cap out of the rak, not to mention the ability to sneaking behind the line, pick up alies on map artillery vehicle and retreat like nothing.
  • #21
    2 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 242

    Penetration: Rak < other ATguns
    Range: Rak < other ATguns
    Armor: Rak < other ATguns
    Damage: Rak = other ATguns
    Speed: Rak > other ATguns
    Cheap price: Rak > other ATguns
    Retreat: Rak yes / other ATguns no
    Camo: Rak yes / other ATguns no
    Round travel: Rak rounds go through terrain / other ATguns rounds hit the ground on contact

    Lost a medium tank in late game doesnt lost the game, lost a light tank in mid game lost the game. Rak is specialist on destroying Light vehicles/tanks.

    If you're afraid of tanks which can out range Rak 55meter, those are SU85 Jackson Firefly which are harmless to Rak
    The only tanks can out range & harm Rak are KV2 ISU152.

  • #22
    2 months ago
    omar_empomar_emp United Arab EmiratesPosts: 511

    @C3Tooth said:
    Penetration: Rak < other ATguns
    Range: Rak < other ATguns
    Armor: Rak < other ATguns
    Damage: Rak = other ATguns
    Speed: Rak > other ATguns
    Cheap price: Rak > other ATguns
    Retreat: Rak yes / other ATguns no
    Camo: Rak yes / other ATguns no
    Round travel: Rak rounds go through terrain / other ATguns rounds hit the ground on contact

    Lost a medium tank in late game doesnt lost the game, lost a light tank in mid game lost the game. Rak is specialist on destroying Light vehicles/tanks.

    If you're afraid of tanks which can out range Rak 55meter, those are SU85 Jackson Firefly which are harmless to Rak
    The only tanks can out range & harm Rak are KV2 ISU152.

    you are right but you forget
    tracking speed rak> other ATs
    speed you mean ROF? rak>other AT except 57 harmless AT gun

  • #23
    2 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 242

    Speed, i mean movement speed.
    Rate of fire, i tested and see Rak and Pak40 have the same rate.

  • #24
    2 months ago
    omar_empomar_emp United Arab EmiratesPosts: 511
    edited February 10

    @C3Tooth said:
    Speed, i mean movement speed.
    Rate of fire, i tested and see Rak and Pak40 have the same rate.

    i think aim time for rak is lower according to
    https://coh2db.com/stats/#135
    https://coh2db.com/stats/#76

  • #25
    2 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,258
    edited February 10
    The shorter range of the Rak43 is also the most overstated weakness in the game. It would be a big deal if it played by other AT gun rules, but because of camo AND the ability to retreat its really not much of a disadvantage.

    A ) You can afford to be more agressive with it because of the ability to retreat
    B ) The stealth means a tanks will get much closer to the Rak, entirely negating the range difference.

    And then there's the fact that it's 270mp HQ AT gun. It SHOULD be a pile of garbage compared to all the other AT guns.
  • #26
    2 months ago

    I agree Rak should require teching to unlock just like every other faction. The retreat should be removed, cloaking is also OP. A cloaked rak can really ruin your day when it's able to get two shots off because it shoots faster than all other AT guns and that it got close enough because of cloaking.
    It is pretty weak late game tho. Another thing is the garrison ability. Wtf? If you look at every other AT gun, they're all very similar. ZIS, 57mm, 6 pounder, pak. All are cumbersome, cant retreat, have to use backwards move. All pretty similar. The rak is completely different.
    Sometimes you can catch players offguard that forgot to build AT. They overbuilt infantry and now have to tech to get an AT gun out to counter your light vehicle rush at 7 min. Then still wait for the manpower to build the gun. That takes a Long time. For OKW? Nah just build it at tier 0 for cheap 270 manpower. No brain cells required.

  • #27
    2 months ago
    Yesterday, while playing as Brit, i capture a rak, sneak through the line and destroy a panzerwerfer. Thet call me cheater, so funny.
  • #28
    2 months ago

    ^lol

  • #29
    2 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,258
    > @DarjeelingMK7 said:
    > Yesterday, while playing as Brit, i capture a rak, sneak through the line and destroy a panzerwerfer. Thet call me cheater, so funny.

    Yup this is among the many reasons I'm completely blown away by the fact that relic hasn't touched this unit.

    We have two units in OKWs HQ alone that have been ruining balance for quite some time. And yet Relic keeps trying to balance the game through doctrines, which only makes things worse.
  • #30
    2 months ago
    ARMYguyARMYguy Posts: 807
    edited February 14

    Lets be real, there are so many other far over performing allied units current patch, than rekens or volks. That is why they have not been dealt with.

  • #31
    2 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,258
    > @ARMYguy said:
    > Lets be real, there are so many other far over performing allied units current patch, than rekens or volks. That is why they have not been dealt with.

    This makes zero sense AND missed my point. My entire point was that it's been MULTIPLE patches we've had while these two stock HQ units continue to go untouched.

    There could not be less sense in saying "this current patch is the reason things that have been OP for years haven't been touched".

    Btw this isn't about axis v allies. It's just about okw...
«1345
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