[OKW] Raketenwerfer performance

135

Comments

  • #62
    3 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,587

    USF is supposed to have less accessibility to team weapons as weapon racks are supposed to compensate for what's missing.

  • #63
    3 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    @addvaluejack And? None of that really has anything to do with the cost effeciency of volks. They already overperform for their cost. Adjust volks, then see what needs to be done.

    You pay zero fuel for your AT gun, so stop saying you need 40 for all support weapons. You also talk about only needing 20 for Soviet support weapons like that's an advantage? That means you're using conscripts as your infantry......
  • #64
    3 months ago

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    @addvaluejack And? None of that really has anything to do with the cost effeciency of volks. They already overperform for their cost. Adjust volks, then see what needs to be done.

    You pay zero fuel for your AT gun, so stop saying you need 40 for all support weapons. You also talk about only needing 20 for Soviet support weapons like that's an advantage? That means you're using conscripts as your infantry......

    My point is the lack of accessibility to team weapon created the ridiculous versatile Volks.

    Is T0 AT a problem? Every faction has a T0 team weapon except Sov. I don't think any Sov player will build T1+T2 at start, but Sov's T1+T2 still cost less than OKW's T1.

  • #65
    3 months ago
    ARMYguyARMYguy Posts: 807
    edited February 17

    @Katitof said:

    @ARMYguy said:
    I could get behind cost increase with volks, that much i agree with. But i think something still needs to be done with Wehr. The infantry doc to get 5 man grens is basically a must to not get curb stomped by same skill opponents and that's a problem. Either some buffs need to go in or some nerfs for the other sides infantry. Just costing more alone does not justify some of the insane killing potential of some of the units in the game.

    Multiple recent tournaments of 1v1 and 2v2 have proven you already wrong.
    Gren SPAM is not working, because its not supposed to.
    Stop ignoring team weapons on a faction that is designed to have team weapons as 30-40% of its infantry force and you might see better results.

    And volks cost 10mp more then cons and roflstomp them without a chance, yes, 280mp infantry have all the right to stomp 240mp ones, especially if these 240mp ones have vastly superior supporting infantry behind them and always have numerical advantage.

    Post a replay, because from the sound of it, you just don't know how to play ost and try to play them like they were OKW or USF with inf spam.

    Which would be fine if we had vcoh level of Wehr team weapons. Aka MG42s with vcoh stats, better mortars ( its junk now, theres a reason why wehr had the best mortar in the game ) If the aim is to make wehr have weak grens so they could be backed up by better team weapons, why does the MG still get instantly decrewed by literally everything, why does wehr team weapons still receive bonus damage ? They kept nerfing the one supposed thing that makes wehr different, so we are stuck with gren spam... so either make gren spam work ( like every other army that spams infantry ) or fix the dang team weapons. Theres no reason why the MG42 needs to take bonus damage anymore, and theres no reason why its traverse needs to be insanely slow anymore either, not when you face garbage like penals and tommys that kill 1 mg model per shot salvo.

    This is why people complaining about OKW makes no sense. How about fixing the other 50 % of the axis roster before nerfing the only other 50 % that can actually have a chance.

  • #66
    3 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    > @addvaluejack said:
    > I don't think any Sov player will build T1+T2 at start, but Sov's T1+T2 still cost less than OKW's T1.

    Yeah minor detail is that the soviets need one of their units to stop and build it. Unlike OKW, who's engineer is not only much stronger but it also has zero responsibilities early on.

    I know what your point is. Again, I'm saying that makes no sense. OKW can choose to get their light tanks out faster than anyone else so they can't also have faster access to support weapons.

    The StG hasn't been touched once since it was added to volks, and it was never tested. Meanwhile a million other things about okw have been tweaked. StG volks have dodged more than enough nerfing
  • #67
    3 months ago
    ARMYguyARMYguy Posts: 807

    Bring back a luchs that isnt trash, then you can nerf volk stg. AAHT is also pretty much trash too, it has too many limitations. This is why everyone just spams volks right into tanks, OKW light vehicles have been decimated by nerfs. You cant nerf the back bone of OKW and leave every other choice as is, in a world of AECs, fast stewarts or M8s, or T70s.

  • #68
    3 months ago
    I propose a fix for the raketen: nerf the set up time, price (i.e. to 280 with 25mp reinforce) give the raketen crew the same received accuracy while retreating than not retreating, change the vet bonuses for movement speed while stealthed to something enhancing survivability or a penetration buff, a larger reveal radius for stealthed raketens and restore the target acquisition time. I acknowledge the point that raketen creep is cheese and it shouldn't happen, but stealth should not be removed as a whole because it's a core part of what makes the raketen a valid ATG, by nerfing the stealth to a level that makes it so that raketens have a harder time getting past units and by reducing movement speed while stealthed, it'll be a larger investment of time to attempt to creep up behind enemy lines. Retreat falls into the same category, a 4 man gun crew will get wiped too quickly without retreat, but OKW shouldn't be able to retreat their raketens without repercussion, so increasing their received accuracy while retreating would make wipes or casualties a larger possibility thereby punishing bad micro, especially with a cost increase. I really don't think the raketen should be rendered a trash ATG simply because it's a t0 unit, the OKW needs a reliable ATG in the early game as an option to deny early allied light vehicles (i.e. clown cars and UCs). It's vet bonuses needs a rework as well, instead of cheesy bonuses like movement speed while stealthed and extra damage for first strike, it could use extra penetration or range to be more consistent in the late game, more cheese isn't a solution for inconsistent performance.

    Volks and OKW light vehicles are a long discussion topic in itself, perhaps they are better addressed in another thread.
  • #69
    3 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    @ARMYguy The AAHT is fantastic what are you talking about. It was buffed very recently.

    This entire "buff this before you nerf volks" crap needs to stop. How about we just properly nerf something that's been negatively effecting balance in the rest of the game for years.
  • #70
    3 months ago
    ARMYguyARMYguy Posts: 807

    What is fantastic about it ? the fact that 90 % of its shots miss a squad moving as fast as a guy with a broken leg? Or the fact they hit random terrain most of the time instead of the squad you want to shoot. The damage is ok, if the squad you want to shoot runs TOWARD the unit. If it moves any other direction, it cant do anything. That's why it is useless. Also the ostwind is even worse off, but that's for another thread. Actually most of what i said is for another thread. But it all ties into why you shouldn't touch volks. I mean, sure , make them more expensive, probably wont hurt OKW much. But gutting their damage would be a bad idea. Honestly though , i always preferred festurm mp40 volks anyways, they are more like vcoh design and also do great damage close. I always wondered why they went STGs instead of the MP40s. I would actually like to see MP40s be the upgrade for all volks and the STG go to festurm doc, personally.

  • #71
    3 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,778
    edited February 18
    OKW lights work great idk what you are on about. Just because yuu can't make work a unit that isn't bat shit op doesn't mean it's underpowered. Luch murders infantry, flaktrak is a fantastic Supression platform that does solid damage. Walking stuka we all know is amazing at breaking up static lines, puma is amazing if you can micro it. Stg volks are a plauge on balance and fixing that will allow us to properly see the issues elsewhere in the faction.

    I too think the current mp40 design better suits volks as a unit, and offers smoke no batter the tech direction which would help with garrisons the flame nade and stg could go to firestorm and we could all breathe easier
  • #72
    3 months ago
    ARMYguyARMYguy Posts: 807
    edited February 18

    My main beef is the pz2, you can literally park it on top of a squad and it will kill nothing, even after a whole salvo. It used to be good before it was nerfed. Compare to things like a t70 which even while following retreating squads, absolutely annihilates them. AAHT is also trash next to the US one, so there's that too. Just a lot safer to spam volks, til tanks.

  • #73
    3 months ago
    > @ARMYguy said:
    > Bring back a luchs that isnt trash, then you can nerf volk stg. AAHT is also pretty much trash too, it has too many limitations. This is why everyone just spams > @ARMYguy said:
    > My main beef is the pz2, you can literally park it on top of a squad and it will kill nothing, even after a whole salvo. It used to be good before it was nerfed. Compare to things like a t70 which even while following retreating squads, absolutely annihilates them. AAHT is also trash next to the US one, so there's that too. Just a lot safer to spam volks, til tanks.

    AAHT do exactly what it supposed to do - suppress Event borfor emplacement cant instan wipe and suppress more than 1 squad move in different direction.
    Moreover, The AAHT actually can shoot down plane, whichs the Bofors cant.

    Pz2 can take upto 3 AT shot, fast as hell and still deal massive dmg to infantry. Dont event compare pz2 to T70 because T70 is more expensive and sit in a higher tech lv. If you do right, pz2 should appear before t70.

    The fact that Pz2 wipe AT crews in a blink and Brit dont have snare make Brit get fu*ked by it so hard before royal engineer received HEAT nade.
  • #74
    3 months ago
    If you believes pz2 could wipe in 1 slavo, may be you pick the wrong game to play. 1 slavo = 1 model at best, no different for T70, unless the infantry squad clump up in cover and then it will take RNG.
  • #75
    3 months ago
    Tip to use AAHT: dont move when it is shooting, or it won't suppress as you said.
  • #76
    3 months ago
    ARMYguyARMYguy Posts: 807

    The point i was making is that allies have such good light vehicles, where are the equivalence in axis light vehicles ? But regardless, that's for another thread.

  • #77
    3 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,778
    If you are not satisfied in the luch build a puma instead. Shut down the enemy light and enjoy the breathing room.

    But the luchs is amazing. Idk what you are on about. Bad RNG? I think @vipper said that is benifit from the point blank mechanic, so make use of that.
  • #78
    3 months ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,587

    @ARMYguy said:
    The point i was making is that allies have such good light vehicles, where are the equivalence in axis light vehicles ? But regardless, that's for another thread.

    They are in the same place where allied stock late game tank equivalents are.

    And as was already said, OKW lights are great.
    Ost lights are great as well, they perform lower, because they are cheaper and arrive much earlier, but what they do, they do very well.

    And if Luchs had as bad dps as you claim, it wouldn't be rushed every single game when possible.

  • #79
    3 months ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    If you are not satisfied in the luch build a puma instead. Shut down the enemy light and enjoy the breathing room.

    But the luchs is amazing. Idk what you are on about. Bad RNG? I think @vipper said that is benifit from the point blank mechanic, so make use of that.

    The Luchs is kind of weaksauce - requiring you to be so close with a light vehicle really diminishes its usability. Unless your enemy bunchs up on the wrong side of yellow cover it really struggles to do any kind of damage. That said, that's no excuse for Volks to be fucking bullshit and it can be looked at after the infantry is finally balanced.

  • #80
    3 months ago
    ARMYguyARMYguy Posts: 807

    @Katitof said:

    @ARMYguy said:
    The point i was making is that allies have such good light vehicles, where are the equivalence in axis light vehicles ? But regardless, that's for another thread.

    They are in the same place where allied stock late game tank equivalents are.

    And as was already said, OKW lights are great.
    Ost lights are great as well, they perform lower, because they are cheaper and arrive much earlier, but what they do, they do very well.

    And if Luchs had as bad dps as you claim, it wouldn't be rushed every single game when possible.

    My luchs always whiffs hard, to the point where i just don't bother anymore. Its not completely useless but i wish it was better, even if it vetted slightly faster would be ok in my book.

  • #81
    2 months ago
    Balanced_GamerBalanced_… Posts: 142

    I feel the Raketenwerfer only serves a purpose only early-mid game. I do not think personally it is that great of a anti tank weapon which forces you get into close medium range. It is good in reconnaissance (that is really the only purpose for raketenwerfer late game), but it is not that fast as some have mentioned, maybe slightly but it wont do to place another shot on a vehicle unlike other AT guns which I prefer over personally.

    If you surprise, yes you can pull of a shot, but if you are against a player whose response is reasonably fast, you are mostly likely to place one shot only. I think Raketenwerfer is ok but fails to live to its standards of a anti tank gun, I would not really consider it a support weapon because you have to get close in order to get a shot. It is like a mine, you place it, then hope they take the bait.

    Late game, it is utterly useless where many allied tanks except ones specifically for anti tank purposely, can easily be countered. It really relies on Panther doing the job. Jadgpanzer is not that great but ok. OKW is limited in terms of Supports due to its overall weak support weapons performances. I think OKW has the worst team weapons ,it is the worst, serves only a better purposes mostly early, a little during mid but I would rather go for Sturmpiooners with Panzershrek, which is a better unit in terms of "support".

    I would if I could, replace raktenwerfer for a Pak40 which serves better in many more aspects in my opinion, I would. It serves even better during late game when it gets all chaotic. I do not think it is that great unless I am against a player who camps their vehicles. That is only when it is does good. Camo is ok but I would not say it is worth the sacrifice for range especially when penetration is bad, best against only light and medium only.

    I usually have to retreat because it can easily be countered. Its limited range due to Camo, survivability (that explain a lot as to why I have to retreat), penetration bad, which I think is the utter downisde of using a Raketenwerfer. It dies sometimes too easy too. Not worth it really. Only one I usually buy, sometimes more because I really need AT.

    You can get it early, that I completely understand, but it is better to use Sturmpioos with Panzershrek since their AI purposes wont be that good mid to late game, it serves a better purpose as AT unit.

    If anything, I would completely replace it for a Pak40 or change it completely, take camo away, make it like any other, I really do not see any benefits from its current state. When changed it can only be accessible to med base, make MG32 instead as something accessible early. Who buys Raketenwerfer early anyway when you can purchase Panzershrek for Sturmpiooners.

    I think it needs changes!!

  • #82
    2 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,778
    The biggest strength of the rakk late game is the THREAT of it. It can cloak so you can't be sure it isn't there. Is that juicy flank a trap or can I try and get in there? I hate playing against OKW lately in part because of the raks. Nothing is safe because of the creep either . Not your Katy, not your ambo, not your weapon teams even due to scouting.

    Like the maxim it's defining trait holds back actually providing reliable performance and needs to be revisited to be less cheesy and more dependable
  • #83
    2 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited March 3
    Well allies now have a lot more units with cheesy defining traits that need a relook. Rak is doing what its need to.

    But i guess relic patches will nerf rek just like how they nerf panthers when someone complain about some 4v4 games, or the brumbar just before the 2v2 championship, or the jli. Never mind it took them ages to nert kv8 flamers
    So don't worry rak nerf is coming
  • #84
    2 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 684
    .
    > @mrgame2 said:
    > Well allies now have a lot more units with cheesy defining traits that need a relook. Rak is doing what its need to.
    >
    > But i guess relic patches will nerf rek just like how they nerf panthers when someone complain about some 4v4 games, or the brumbar just before the 2v2 championship, or the jli. Never mind it took them ages to nert kv8 flamers
    > So don't worry rak nerf is coming

    Wich are those? Ass far as i know the allied cheese has already been hammerd hard.

    It also took them ages to fix gaurds dancing, fix ost mortar and twp, volks shreck and vet from inf based at. Al factions had fixes that have been way overdeu.
  • #85
    2 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    > @mrgame2 said:
    > Well allies now have a lot more units with cheesy defining traits that need a relook. Rak is doing what its need to.

    If what it needs to do is break the game then ya it's definitely working
  • #86
    2 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    Right now game is already broken in favour of allies. Check coh2.org top 10 1v1, soviet has the greatest win rates and steaks. Wehr is coming last
  • #87
    2 months ago
    DarjeelingMK7Darjeelin… Posts: 244
    All factions have theirs own strengs and weaknesses, yet you keep deni the fact.
  • #88
    2 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    > @mrgame2 said:
    > Right now game is already broken in favour of allies. Check coh2.org top 10 1v1, soviet has the greatest win rates and steaks. Wehr is coming last

    You know those win-rates are lifetime right? Wins and losses from 5 years ago count towards that percentage.

    As for streaks I see an 1 Ostheer player who's won 46 in a row so I think everyone's doing okay
  • #89
    2 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    edited March 4
    Yes i know lifetime win rates
    Do you think soviet was poor faction 4 years ago?
    What does that tell you how fast soviet has made up with the win rates?
    This is my point when i bought up this stats for relic consideration
  • #90
    2 months ago
    DarjeelingMK7Darjeelin… Posts: 244
    Like alies have Soviet only, and Soviet's weakness is as big as an elephant as well.
  • #91
    2 months ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    > @mrgame2 said:
    > Yes i know lifetime win rates
    > Do you think soviet was poor faction 4 years ago?
    > What does that tell you how fast soviet has made up with the win rates?
    > This is my point when i bought up this stats for relic consideration

    Well do you have the stats from then? What were the winrates of the top 10 players 4 years ago? Cause if you don't you can't just say "the winrates got better"
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