USF - New Commander Mod Official Discussion

24

Comments

  • #32
    3 months ago
    mognatsmognats Posts: 5

    @PanzerFutz said:
    @thedarkarmadillo If you could show me some evidence that the standard M4 with a dozer blade can go head-to-head with a Pz4 and not be out of its league, I might be convinced.

    I think the 105 is more suited to taking on garrisoned infantry than other tanks. However, it can build revetments for other tanks and TD's to give them a makeshift "hull-down" aspect.

    Everyone seems to agree that the dozer blade is perfect for urban warfare, it's just that a lot of us feel that it's not enough on its own. I'm not sure there is any solution which won't displease someone.

    I would take the 105 but I would rather the EZ8 as the 105 is already really good and the EZ8 doesn't really have a great spot right now. Not to mention the calliope is there to kill infantry even though it does it very poorly.

  • #33
    3 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,810
    @panzerfutz the sherman and the p4 is already a toss up in RNG. The sherman has more pen and the p4 has more armour. Adding armour and health to the sherman skews the RNG into its favour instead of being slightly out of its favor. Not to mention the blade then makes it more resilient against Shreks which urban warfare favors. I'll admit I don't recall the exact numbers the blade improves the sherman but it's no negligible amount
  • #34
    3 months ago
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > @panzerfutz the sherman and the p4 is already a toss up in RNG. The sherman has more pen and the p4 has more armour. Adding armour and health to the sherman skews the RNG into its favour instead of being slightly out of its favor. Not to mention the blade then makes it more resilient against Shreks which urban warfare favors. I'll admit I don't recall the exact numbers the blade improves the sherman but it's no negligible amount

    For me 75 sherman wasnt super effective vs german medium tanks like p4, not to mention the axis can better support their tanks with pak raketten or shreks compared to USF's bazooka and 57. Dozers do increase shermans health but in sacrifice to its mobility and rotation, important aspects in tank combat. Putting a very situational upgrade as an entire commander slot will make the already medicore commander into a wreck. Adding 76 sherman or replscing it with Ez 8 will grant USf players with new tank options than jackson+m8.
  • #35
    3 months ago
    Plus to me this commander was quite underwhelming overall , not only the dozer.

    1. Nade for eschlon was ok.... but still not enough to give USF the strength to fight toe to toe in early game. I think just like OKW Feuerstrum's assault package, we can give flamer foe eschlon and rifle nade for the rifleman. (And do the same with rifle companys slot)

    2. Smoke barrage seemsnlegit and fits the concept well

    3. Rangers to me were still medicore. Yes they are cheaper but still lack the utility to support their close quarter combat.

    4. Calliope's blast radius still makes it not pay its money, even with price reduction. As much as I prefer the priest I think it completely mistmatch the concept of "Urban Assault". Calliope needs more improvement or replaced with barrage such as white phosperous
  • #36
    3 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,810
    > @USFzaBESTno1 said:
    > > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > > @panzerfutz the sherman and the p4 is already a toss up in RNG. The sherman has more pen and the p4 has more armour. Adding armour and health to the sherman skews the RNG into its favour instead of being slightly out of its favor. Not to mention the blade then makes it more resilient against Shreks which urban warfare favors. I'll admit I don't recall the exact numbers the blade improves the sherman but it's no negligible amount
    >
    > For me 75 sherman wasnt super effective vs german medium tanks like p4, not to mention the axis can better support their tanks with pak raketten or shreks compared to USF's bazooka and 57. Dozers do increase shermans health but in sacrifice to its mobility and rotation, important aspects in tank combat. Putting a very situational upgrade as an entire commander slot will make the already medicore commander into a wreck. Adding 76 sherman or replscing it with Ez 8 will grant USf players with new tank options than jackson+m8.

    You are ignoring the theme of the commander. URBAN. Cities. Places where speed and rotation mean little, especially when you can literally block off your flanks.

    As for the 57mm and zooks, they are cheaper and far more accessible. Zooks can be on any infantry (even the ones shooting rifle nades at enemies in cover) and the 57mm is arguably the best AT gun in the game. Sure you need HVAP but it's ROF is massive and it's vet ability is so good.

    I get that players just want what's easy but I really wish they would look at the commander and at least try and use it the way it's designed.
  • #37
    3 months ago
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > > @USFzaBESTno1 said:
    > > > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > > > @panzerfutz the sherman and the p4 is already a toss up in RNG. The sherman has more pen and the p4 has more armour. Adding armour and health to the sherman skews the RNG into its favour instead of being slightly out of its favor. Not to mention the blade then makes it more resilient against Shreks which urban warfare favors. I'll admit I don't recall the exact numbers the blade improves the sherman but it's no negligible amount
    > >
    > > For me 75 sherman wasnt super effective vs german medium tanks like p4, not to mention the axis can better support their tanks with pak raketten or shreks compared to USF's bazooka and 57. Dozers do increase shermans health but in sacrifice to its mobility and rotation, important aspects in tank combat. Putting a very situational upgrade as an entire commander slot will make the already medicore commander into a wreck. Adding 76 sherman or replscing it with Ez 8 will grant USf players with new tank options than jackson+m8.
    >
    > You are ignoring the theme of the commander. URBAN. Cities. Places where speed and rotation mean little, especially when you can literally block off your flanks.
    >
    > As for the 57mm and zooks, they are cheaper and far more accessible. Zooks can be on any infantry (even the ones shooting rifle nades at enemies in cover) and the 57mm is arguably the best AT gun in the game. Sure you need HVAP but it's ROF is massive and it's vet ability is so good.
    >
    > I get that players just want what's easy but I really wish they would look at the commander and at least try and use it the way it's designed.

    I hold different opinion on USF's Anti tank capability. To me having to spend mmunition to be par with othe faction's AT guns seems unreasonable. But I digress.

    I know that this commander's theme is combat in a urban area, but can,t agree on that being a good reason to not give a tank variant for this commander. Yes it is themed for urban combat but that doesnt mean it can be implemented with an armor that can provide better anti armor support. Rifle company for instance, is centered on infantry upgrade on eschlons and rifleman but also has access to Ez8 sherman that has better anti tank capability than the regular sherman. I dont think granting access to 76 or Ez8 wont ruin this commanders concept as its other abilities already suits the urbant combat notion (despite being quiteunderwhelming in its current status)
  • #38
    3 months ago

    rifle company have Ez8

    What is rifle company and Ez8 related to?

    Does Ez8 intensify its commander's concept? No

    Does Caliope intensify "urban assault"? No

    Ez8 need more commander and this is last chance of Ez8

    delete useless Caliope and dozer blade

    and put in Ez8 and P-47 bombing strike

  • #39
    3 months ago
    MartevallMartevall Posts: 108
    edited March 27
    I agree with two last comments And here is my suggestion for change a little this commander:

    -RERG can stay
    -dozer blades now change to (Urban support pack for tanks wchich include (dozer blades for Sherman and a flamethrower also for Sherman)
    -offmap smoke is great
    -ranger defenitely stay
    - Sherman buldozer 105mm or calliope or easy eight

    Hope you enjoy :)
  • #40
    3 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,810
    @USFzaBESTno1 you pay munitions because you pay less manpower. The 57mm costs the same as the raketten, less than a rifle squad. It's cheaper and better against lights, then with munitions its better against mediums as well.

    USF doesn't need more AT because they have the Jackson once the 57mm starts to fall off without munitions, not to mention the great pen of the sherman (sherman AP shells have the best pen of all the non premium medium tanks)
    The 75mm sherman fills the role of AT when needed and HE monster when fighting infantry. The 76 and E8 would be less effective due to the lack of AI. In urban environments infantry Excel so you want the HE shells to negate that advantage. Similarly the dozer blade is nothing but an advantage in the scenarios this commander is designed to excel in. The increased armour and health combined with the already superior pen profile (very potent in the close ranges) it makes it into sort of a lite kv-1.

    Also the E8 is a great tank, higher pen than a t34/85 and over 200 armour as well as an even better than usual on the move modifier (0.8 instead of the usf usual 0.75 and miles better than the standard 0.5 modifier on everyone else) aside from its poorer AI (which doesn't suit this commander), there isn't anything really wrong with IT aside from weaker rifle compamy
  • #41
    3 months ago
    AzurewrathAzurewrath Posts: 11
    edited March 28

    Sherman Armor 160/Pen 100~140 OKW P4 Armor 234/Pen 110~125 Wehr P4 : Armor 180/Pen 100~140

    So... since Axis tanks are more heavily armored, you can't say that sherman is a great anti-tank unit.

    And I'm pretty sure dozer blade does not increase armor. Only health by 80.

  • #42
    3 months ago
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > @USFzaBESTno1 you pay munitions because you pay less manpower. The 57mm costs the same as the raketten, less than a rifle squad. It's cheaper and better against lights, then with munitions its better against mediums as well.
    >
    > USF doesn't need more AT because they have the Jackson once the 57mm starts to fall off without munitions, not to mention the great pen of the sherman (sherman AP shells have the best pen of all the non premium medium tanks)
    > The 75mm sherman fills the role of AT when needed and HE monster when fighting infantry. The 76 and E8 would be less effective due to the lack of AI. In urban environments infantry Excel so you want the HE shells to negate that advantage. Similarly the dozer blade is nothing but an advantage in the scenarios this commander is designed to excel in. The increased armour and health combined with the already superior pen profile (very potent in the close ranges) it makes it into sort of a lite kv-1.
    >
    > Also the E8 is a great tank, higher pen than a t34/85 and over 200 armour as well as an even better than usual on the move modifier (0.8 instead of the usf usual 0.75 and miles better than the standard 0.5 modifier on everyone else) aside from its poorer AI (which doesn't suit this commander), there isn't anything really wrong with IT aside from weaker rifle compamy

    > @Azurewrath said:
    > Sherman Armor 160/Pen 100~140 OKW P4 Armor 234/Pen 110~125 Wehr P4 : Armor 180/Pen 100~140
    >
    > So... since Axis tanks are more heavily armored, you can't say that sherman is a great anti-tank unit.
    >
    > And I'm pretty sure dozer blade does not increase armor. Only health by 80.

    @Azurewrath
    Christ I didnt know sherman 75 was that mediocore against Axis p4s. And with dozer adding only 80 hp in sacrifice to mobility & rotation.....

    @thedarkarmadilo
    No, the 75 is not a good anti tank option no matter how you try to gloss over it. Adding mere 80 hp wont help it vs p4s with superior armor, not to mentioned being supported by pak compared to 57 that requires 30 ammo to have similar ap potent. Yes jackson is a great AT option but beforehand USF must rely on rather inferior at weapons (yes bazookas can be equipped by eschs or majors but that doesnt make up for its dps). Replacing the dozer with 76 or ez8 will able usf with a tank that can actually go toe ti toe with axis medium tank in sacrifice to losing anti infantry. Some might say that it hampers the theme of "urban addault" but its other skills already match its theme perfectly:

    1. Esch nades and smoke screen to deal with garrisoned enemy unit
    2. Ranger for clise quarters in urban area
    3. Calliope...... well i think THIS unit is an odd choice to this commanders theme, not to mention underwhelming. Iwont be surprised if it be replaced with off map artillery.

    Wasting an entire slot with dozer in an over focus on concept wont make this commander usable. You can praise on how it suits the fluff all day long but a shitty commander is a shitty commander. Making it underperform just to meet its theme in your perfect taste is unreasonable when making necessary changes can give it a chance to be a biable choice while retaining its concept at the same time.
  • #43
    3 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,810
    @Azurewrath your stats a wrong. You have the p4s pens with different values and shouldn't be the case. And I'm certain the blades increase armour as well as health (and that health still translates into +1 hit from any proper AT source)
    The sherman only struggles against p4s with skirts (not unreasonable)
    As for the 57mm you get what you pay for. You pay less upfront and pay more as needed.

    I get that it's not as flashy as a 76mm sherman but that would turn the commander from good into God tier. Rangers, rocket arty, the ability to flush building, stop LOS AND a high pen mobile medium tank would be too strong.
    My reasoning isn't arbitrary it's based in understanding the balance of the game not just cause its what I want (which is literally the only counter argument for wanting a bigger better ability in place of dozer blades.)
    We need to move away from "Shiney new commander makes all others obsolete"
  • #44
    3 months ago
    @thedarkarmadilo
    It says dozer only increases sherman's health, not armor.
  • #45
    3 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,810
    Hmm well I was certain it increased armour. It should. I'd sooner go that way for a buff than something else. 30%like skirts wouldn't be unreasonable.
  • #46
    3 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,810
    Looks like relic agreed that the blades were not enough as their own. Molitovs and white phosphorus incoming!
  • #47
    3 months ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    The new package is a major improvement but, Relic has stayed true to form by giving with one hand and taking with the other.

    I would like to nominate Cover to Cover as the most worthless item in CoH history. Why give a single smoke round to a faction which has smoke options in abundance? Mortars, Pack Howitzers, Officers, Rear Echelons and Shermans can all provide covering smoke; there is no need to waste a slot on this abomination. Either go back to the Smoke Barrage, change it to White Phosphorus or come up with something new which is actually useful.

    Cover to Cover = P U (translation: it stinks!)

  • #48
    3 months ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    Possible replacements for Cover to Cover:

    1. US version of Assault/Assault and Hold/Valiant Assault/For Mother Russia
    2. US version of Counterattack/Breakthrough Tactics
    3. Something really different like a Sniper (yes, it is suited to Urban Combat)
  • #49
    3 months ago
    MartevallMartevall Posts: 108
    > @PanzerFutz said:
    > The new package is a major improvement but, Relic has stayed true to form by giving with one hand and taking with the other.
    >
    > I would like to nominate Cover to Cover as the most worthless item in CoH history. Why give a single smoke round to a faction which has smoke options in abundance? Mortars, Pack Howitzers, Officers, Rear Echelons and Shermans can all provide covering smoke; there is no need to waste a slot on this abomination. Either go back to the Smoke Barrage, change it to White Phosphorus or come up with something new which is actually useful.
    >
    > Cover to Cover = P U (translation: it stinks!)

    Sorry dude but i disagree with you , actually cover to cover is really good abillity a specially on Urban places without too , one od my fav skills on this commander , its a better version of offmap smoke cause gives you an sprint for all the infantry wchich gives more mobility really needed in Urban warfare ( worth IT with Rangers) if you look on rifle commander and heavy calvary that abillity is a hybrid , also i tested it and i am very proud od that commander not only cov to cov . For me Urban Assault Commander can stay without any problems . Thanks Relic :smile:
  • #50
    3 months ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    @Martevall Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I'm glad it works for you. For me, it's weak tea.

    Every faction has a Sprint + combat buffs ability except the US. Now is a good time to fix that, especially given that this is an assault commander. Instead, we get a Sprint + single smoke-round ability for the faction with the most smoke options in its arsenal (by far).

    It's a wasted opportunity, in my opinion, but I'm sure we'll be stuck with it now.

  • #51
    3 months ago
    MartevallMartevall Posts: 108
    I Respect your opinion maybe you are right with US has a lot of smoke options but look if that abillity will has low cooldown has a potencial od being used on stressful situations and can be spamed a lot
  • #52
    3 months ago
    MartevallMartevall Posts: 108
    I think it is a better mix than solo abillities ( sprint from rifle company and offmap smoke from heavy calvary company)
  • #53
    3 months ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346
    edited March 29

    @Martevall I agree that it's better than Fire Up, another "give with one hand, take with the other" ability. Why does Fire Up result in fatigue but not Tactical Movement? Short sprints I can understand but, Tactical Movement lasts a while and yet it doesn't end in fatigue.

    Still, I'd rather see the Americans get a US version of Assault/Assault and Hold/Valiant Assault/For Mother Russia. That's my understanding of "balance".

    It took a long time to convince the development team of the need to give the Soviets healing away from base but, they finally did it. Now there are 2 Soviet commanders with that ability. I'm a patient man; I'll keep grinding this axe as long as it takes.

  • #54
    3 months ago
    MartevallMartevall Posts: 108
    Kk then
  • #55
    3 months ago
    SerpentSerpent Posts: 7

    ok in my opinion commander is good but ... but "cover to cover " cost too much 5cp ugh ok i can live with that but 70munitions??? i thought it will be about 60m yes i understand that normal offmap smoke 40m + sprint 15m ( all of infantry ) cost much more but i tested and it comes a little late? maybe 4 CP?

  • #56
    3 months ago
    MartevallMartevall Posts: 108
    +1
  • #57
    3 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,810

    can we talk a bit about the rifle nades?
    i feel that they may be too much due to their range.
    they are a great addition abut i feel thay are very much over performing. they can be fired from building and over shot blockers at a tremendous range and i fell that makes them a bit too strong

    any thoughts?

  • #58
    3 months ago
    MrWhiteMrWhite Posts: 2

    Here is my take on current USF commander everything looks fine except that USF is in much need of elite tank, As OKW can get Tiger tank from whermacht why dont you replace calliope with churchill crocodile which can soak some damage as no other US tank is capable of soaking damage.
    and instead of off map smoke it'll be great to have off map call in which can do some damage like 105mm howitzer barrage or cluster mines.

  • #59
    3 months ago
    MartevallMartevall Posts: 108
    > @thedarkarmadillo said:
    > can we talk a bit about the rifle nades?
    > i feel that they may be too much due to their range.
    > they are a great addition abut i feel thay are very much over performing. they can be fired from building and over shot blockers at a tremendous range and i fell that makes them a bit too strong
    >
    > any thoughts?

    Nades are great alternative for flamethrower , have a better range tyan flmthr but it takes down enemy squads a bit more longer
  • #60
    3 months ago
    PanzerFutzPanzerFutz Melbourne, OzPosts: 346

    @thedarkarmadillo I don't think the rifle-grenades are too strong. Yes, they have good range and can shoot over cover but, they can't shoot over buildings or forests. The damage is about right and the delayed-fuse allows squads to move away if you see it in time. I'll admit I haven't tested their potency when spammed and that may be an issue. However, I'd like Relic to leave them as they are for the time being and let the testing sort itself out. I want to see how they fare in a full-blooded match; then we'll know whether they really need to be nerfed.

    @Martevall My opinion of Cover to Cover has softened. I still like the idea of the US getting a Sprint + combat buffs ability but, I now realize that C2C is a long Sprint with no fatigue and that's a good thing for the US. The smoke is redundant but, at least the US faction now has something to match the Wehrmacht's Tactical Movement. In my opinion, the munitions cost of the smoke round should be removed from the ability because, the Sprint will frequently get used in non-combat situations (possibly more than in combat). Also, given that Tactical Movement is available at 4 CP, Cover to Cover should be available at that point too.

    I have to wonder, though, whether the design team gave the US so many smoke options because, they are of the opinion that Americans love blowing smoke up other people's backsides. Just a thought.

  • #61
    3 months ago
    RomanovRomanov Posts: 48

    The nades now feel pretty decent, a worthwile upgrade over double zooks or flamethrowers.they certainly could give ostheer a headache since they rely a lot on HMG support in the early game. Cover to cover i think is a good change that makes things more unique. the incindiary nades are a neat idea for more close range cover denial now that the flamer is gone, i suppose locking it behind the grenade package will madke the pack itself more attractive. Only problem of giving rifles another tool is making rangers even more redundant than they already are. i am still in favour of giving them a WP grenade or any other sort of ability that makes them interesting. the 3 weapon slots isnt all that worth it when rifles on the flipside are cheaper while also having incindiary and AT grenades.

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