Is the USF even viable in 1v1? Or have you been frustrated out of them.

#1
6 months ago

Hello, fairly new to the game but have around 200 hours of so in it. Been doing 1v1 with the USF and it just seems like they are missing something around the tier 2-3 gap that just allows them to be roflstomped against anything. Between mg42 Wehr allowing map control vs volks spamming mg42 lmg it just seems like its lopsided to hell. Once german map control is gained once you can hardly push them back. Mortars are too RNG reliant and just fail entirely.

Thinking of just switching to another faction entirely. They never seem to be the once taking lead in a game and instead I always find myself on the back foot playing RE-ACTIVELY instead of PROACTIVELY. German players before going L2P or something counter productive can you post a strategy that you have fallen to consistently or something OP about the USF you've noticed.

On my 8th straight loss and I'm trying to learn the game not whine about it.

Comments

  • #2
    6 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 307

    I play a lot of USF and yes dealing with mg guns is harsh. DO NOT use mortars pump out about 3 rifleman and lieutenant
    try and hold on and defend stay away from the mg guns or get into heavy cover. Get m20 out as soon as possible with armor upgrade will help against mg guns that are not in buildings get a 50cal mg gun to follow your main infantry force. remaining munitions start putting into a couple bazookas to help vs any light vehicles, your infantry will lack some anti infantry power that is why you need the 50cal following you around. next you will need to start getting captain out so you have access to at guns for medium armor and pack howitzer which is far better then mortar. if you manage to kill off a light vehicle your doing good so get howitzer if not or have not seen any light vehicles or lost your m20 get anti tank gun.
    after that idk it is all up to you. personally I find Sherman really weak to Panzerschrecks so I go with 2 m8 scots instead and keep my distance. with 50cal and infantry support m8 scot can hit from range at relative safety and also use barrage on emplacements and anti tank guns. m8 scots are also a little bit better at surviving on map artillery compared to pack howitzers.

    also if you go up against OKW be warned their panzer is an upgraded version from Wehrmacht so Sherman 75mm is going to struggle unless you can hit it with an at gun, snare it then run behind it with a Sherman. Otherwise the Sherman is completely outclassed.

  • #3
    6 months ago

    @38Lightning said:
    I play a lot of USF and yes dealing with mg guns is harsh. DO NOT use mortars pump out about 3 rifleman and lieutenant

    You're doomed with this configuration frankly. For starters, precisely nothing Wehrmacht have at T0 or T1 is worth a tech. Mortars can kill 100% of what Wehr spawns with until T2.

    [> try and hold on and defend stay away from the mg guns or get into heavy cover.

    Excessively defensive play that a good Wehrmacht player will capitalize on by building bunkers and supply points.

    Get m20 out as soon as possible with armor upgrade will help against mg guns that are not in buildings get a 50cal mg gun to follow your main infantry force.

    The M20 is not a tank and is not good at playing one. It is a big Kubelwagen with smoke and dismounts and should be used that way if you ask me.

    remaining munitions start putting into a couple bazookas to help vs any light vehicles,

    Bazookas don't do enough damage to deter light armor from kiting. You were better off teching Captain > immediate AT gun.

    your infantry will lack some anti infantry power that is why you need the 50cal following you around. next you will need to start getting captain out so you have access to at guns for medium armor and pack howitzer which is far better then mortar.

    Not nearly as cheap though, and the Pack Howitzer cannot retreat so....use a lot of caution or micro or both.

    > after that idk it is all up to you. personally I find Sherman really weak to Panzerschrecks so I go with 2 m8 scots instead and keep my distance.

    Not a bad idea but once Pgrens go double Schreck their firepower falls well below rifles who can now reliably counter them.

    with 50cal and infantry support m8 scot can hit from range at relative safety and also use barrage on emplacements and anti tank guns. m8 scots are also a little bit better at surviving on map artillery compared to pack howitzers.

    True. In fact by late game your artillery should consist almost entirely of M8 Scotts. They're affordable, can smoke, their dismounts can cap, are basically immune to counter artillery, and can defend themselves well. Great deal for their cost.

    > also if you go up against OKW be warned their panzer is an upgraded version from Wehrmacht so Sherman 75mm is going to struggle unless you can hit it with an at gun, snare it then run behind it with a Sherman. Otherwise the Sherman is completely outclassed.

    Trouble here is that you're using the Sherman against a peer tank. The Sherman is an RNG monster and is at its best wiping Volks and Rakets with its HE shell. The AP round is great against structures and light armor like the Luchs but it was never intended to match the Panzer IV much less the Panther as far as the game goes.

  • #4
    6 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 307
    Mortars won't kill off mg guns like you believe and to finde them you need to use your infantry which will push you back and get their infantry chasing you down.
    Mortars are also far more vulnerable and leave you with less ai power very situational and avoidable.


    M20 is very good at killing infantry and mg guns if kept from a distance and not dealing with armor piercing round which you should not be this early.

    Yes bazookas are great to just deter also helps you get that 1 star vet for snare and 50cal has armore piercing rounds.
  • #5
    6 months ago
    SimpleSimonSimpleSim… Posts: 73
    edited April 23

    @38Lightning said:
    Mortars won't kill off mg guns like you believe and to finde them you need to use your infantry which will push you back and get their infantry chasing you down.

    They will not usually achieve wipes by themselves, but that's not what you're aiming for. (You're expecting quite a bit of a 240mp unit.) What I know they will get is damage and will force the Axis player to move his machine guns, play defensively, or build a medical bunker. REs will be pinned by machine gun fire but a pair of mortars will kill an MG42 before it can kill the spotting unit. A pair of mortars can, will, and have wiped machine guns in buildings before the Axis player has had a chance to get them back out of the building. Sounds to me like your mortar micro just isn't very good and when you've got mortars you're super timid with them. If I was an Axis player I would do exactly what you describe Axis players are doing against you in your other thread. I'd bunker up around your HQ as much as possible and get Pgrens and Panzer IVs out ftw.

    Actually I usually see Grenadiers and Pioneers get wiped by mortar strikes. If anything they are what's in danger from mortars.

    > Mortars are also far more vulnerable and leave you with less ai power very situational and avoidable.

    You're not defending them well it seems. Mortars are USF's chief source of firepower at T0 and if they are avoidable than you need to make them unavoidable by taking advantage of their low cost or backing them up with fighting positions. Mortars are weapons of offense, not defense. If you're using them defensively it sounds to me like you're planning to avoid defeat, unlike your Axis opponent, who is planing to win.

    > M20 is very good at killing infantry and mg guns if kept from a distance and not dealing with armor piercing round which you should not be this early.

    It's ok at killing infantry. It's great for chasing off Kubelwagens and Pioneers and the Bazooka can make it pesky for a Scout Car.

    > Yes bazookas are great to just deter also helps you get that 1 star vet for snare and 50cal has armore piercing rounds.

    I suppose yes if your plan is to fast Vet your rifles the bazooka can facilitate that, but it seems awfully expensive and should be moot by the time it's necessary unless you've got squads that are late to the game.

  • #6
    6 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 307
    edited April 23

    the thing is if axis goes hard mainline infantry mortar is just a sitting duck and missing moving targets whereas a 50cal will suppress. I do get that mortars can be of use but definitely not right away and only if you see mg guns or your going to be at a disadvantage and over ran.

    I am basically just meaning to imply if you get a mortar make dam sure it has a good reason to be there or it will slow down your momentum.

    if you watched my gameplay on the other post you would see I simply got doubled up on in a 4v4. if had better allies that typically wouldn't happen but that's 4v4 for ya, no complaints. it was simply a gameplay to show how it was that kind of opportunity for a rocket barrage that would have better sufficed over 75mm howitzer or even 105mm Sherman for that matter.

    I don't typically play 1v1 but I thought ide try and get a couple games in.

    in this one I didn't even need a mortar or a 50cal and I was not about to let sturmpioneers press my infantry individually.

  • #7
    6 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 307
    edited April 23

    this one is unfortunately the only Wehrmacht game I got into. now I do lose but it is not the opening strategy that failed me. I simply got lax miss managed my units and got outplayed. I messed up heavily at around 12 mins and didn't much care after that.

  • #8
    6 months ago

    > @38Lightning said: > the thing is if axis goes hard mainline infantry mortar is just a sitting duck and missing moving targets whereas a 50cal will suppress. I do get that mortars can be of use but definitely not right away and only if you see mg guns or your going to be at a disadvantage and over ran.

    REs are perfectly capable of preventing that if they're in a fighting position or green cover. Rifles even more so but you shouldn't resort to more than one, maybe two rifle squads against Wehrmacht at T0 or even T1. Those MG42s are specifically targeting them and most Axis players start off under the assumption that you will be relying on them. Why play into that assumption?

    > I am basically just meaning to imply if you get a mortar make dam sure it has a good reason to be there or it will slow down your momentum.

    Mortars are literally USF's only source of heavy firepower at T0. They are your momentum. Relying on rifle blobs to accomplish that for you will be punished by a Wehrmacht player worth his salt. As for OKW, it is the correct strategy, but you should use fighting positions more and tech ASAP.

    In effect what i'm seeing and what your replays reveal is that your attitude is heavily optimized for fighting OKW but not Wehrmacht.

    As for your replay against Mr. Brightside. Brightside made the phenomenally poor decision to open with 3 Assault Pioneer squads....suuuuuper expensive units that rifles will wear down fast. Against OKW your strategy is sound and indeed opening with a mortar before the first two or three minutes would get you in trouble. Of course if Brightside had more Volksgrenadiers he would've been able to both hold you off and cap the rest of the map instead of sending a 300mp Assault Pioneer to didder off capping sectors of map. He had no concentration, and not enough units to carry out those all important flank attacks to defeat USF as OKW.

    Brightside's strategy would've worked fine if you had a mortar or two and more than one RE squad but since you gave him no indication at any point that's how you were fighting I was left more than a little baffled by his opening configuration. 1v1 invites experimental stuff though and who knows who he just came out of fighting.

    As for the Chinese player, your lack of artillery firepower left you overly reliant on rifles and flank attacks which accomplished nothing except to give those Grenadiers precious veterancy. The pineapple does not usually accomplish wipes, making it a dubious thing to blow manpower and fuel and muni on although I thought you were correct in prioritizing it against Grenadier squads rather than chasing the MG42 with it. However, mortars would've left many of the Grenadiers you were fighting soft enough to achieve wipes against with pineapple grenades you value so much but instead the Axis player just knew he could just blunt your attacks while he controlled just enough of the map to squeeze out Panzer IVs. I felt it was unwise for him to go T4 and get a Brummbar since the Panzer IV is more than enough to kill 95% of what USF has and a pair of them would've left you with even bigger problems since a couple of times your Scott evaded his one and only Panzer IV.

    Indeed, he almost got himself in a lot of trouble when your Sherman Easy Eight showed up and the Axis player's Brummbar was covered by...nothing. He was able to extricate it in time and at a point even if it had been destroyed you had no units and no map control while the Axis player had veteran infantry and 2nd Panzer IV on the way. All it would've amounted to was a setback.

    At around the 12:00 mark I was...well I found your decision to capture a VP with a pack howitzer covered by nothing but an M20 to be foolish. The VP was the closest one to the Axis base, you immediately revealed a high value capture that cannot retreat to the Axis player and your M20 almost died along with it. Eventually it did die as light armor so often does but I couldn't figure out why you wouldn't at least position it between the victory point and the Axis base so you had some kind of warning that a big attack was coming. You might've been able to extricate your pack mortar then. Instead, it was captured! This was double egregious for me since these are explicitly things I warned you about previously that A. Pack Howitzers cannot retreat and B. The M20 is not a tank.

    Overall? Your force was too soft and didn't have enough heavy firepower to inflict casualties on the Axis player. Pineapple grenades were your chief source of damage output but they only served only to drain your ammo while the Axis player kept sending out more and more units with Schrecks, MG42s, and flamethrowers. Grenades are no replacement for mortars. At no point did the Axis player seem task saturated by checking your rifle squad attacks with his own Grenadiers. Even if they suffered casualties he still found the spare fuel and manpower and map control to tech and upgrade. The post game report showed you managed to inflict about 80ish kills on the Axis player but he killed nearly one hundred and eighty eight of your men in return. He was draining your manpower much faster with his balanced force than you were with your 4+ rifle squads.

  • #9
    6 months ago
    BloodygoodBloodygood Posts: 74

    If you're facing wehrmacht, I do suggest building a mortar and perhaps building a well-placed mg emplacement and upgrading it as soon as possible. Learn to annoy the enemy with smoke. Have an answer for light vehicles early (usf don't get snares without veterancy, which is just ridiculous imho). If you're facing okw, I would suggest not building a mortar at all until you know where their trucks are. But I agree, playing as USF is a huge uphill battle (even more so in multiplayer) and the only way around it is to leverage one of their doctrines that are very situational, ie pathfinder flares or assault engies, but neither of these prove gamebreaking more than 50% of the time unless you are very very skilled, then we're looking at perhaps 60%. Unless of course your opponent is equally skilled, then you're back around 50% again lol.. I abandoned playing as USF completely and have found more success with soviet and british

  • #10
    6 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 307
    > @SimpleSimon said:
    > [quote]> @38Lightning said:
    >
    > the thing is if axis goes hard mainline infantry mortar is just a sitting duck and missing moving targets whereas a 50cal will suppress. I do get that mortars can be of use but definitely not right away and only if you see mg guns or your going to be at a disadvantage and over ran.[/quote]
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > REs are perfectly capable of preventing that if they're in a fighting position or green cover. Rifles even more so but you shouldn't resort to more than one, maybe two rifle squads against Wehrmacht at T0 or even T1. Those MG42s are specifically targeting them and most Axis players start off under the assumption that you will be relying on them. Why play into that assumption?
    >
    > [quote]> I am basically just meaning to imply if you get a mortar make dam sure it has a good reason to be there or it will slow down your momentum.[/quote]
    >
    > Mortars are literally USF's only source of heavy firepower at T0. They are your momentum. Relying on rifle blobs to accomplish that for you will be punished by a Wehrmacht player worth his salt. As for OKW, it is the correct strategy, but you should use fighting positions more and tech ASAP.
    >
    > In effect what i'm seeing and what your replays reveal is that your attitude is heavily optimized for fighting OKW but not Wehrmacht.
    >
    > As for your replay against Mr. Brightside. Brightside made the phenomenally poor decision to open with 3 Assault Pioneer squads....suuuuuper expensive units that rifles will wear down fast. Against OKW your strategy is sound and indeed opening with a mortar before the first two or three minutes would get you in trouble. Of course if Brightside had more Volksgrenadiers he would've been able to both hold you off and cap the rest of the map instead of sending a 300mp Assault Pioneer to didder off capping sectors of map. He had no concentration, and not enough units to carry out those all important flank attacks to defeat USF as OKW.
    >
    > Brightside's strategy would've worked fine if you had a mortar or two and more than one RE squad but since you gave him no indication at any point that's how you were fighting I was left more than a little baffled by his opening configuration. 1v1 invites experimental stuff though and who knows who he just came out of fighting.
    >
    > As for the Chinese player, your lack of artillery firepower left you overly reliant on rifles and flank attacks which accomplished nothing except to give those Grenadiers precious veterancy. The pineapple does not usually accomplish wipes, making it a dubious thing to blow manpower and fuel and muni on although I thought you were correct in prioritizing it against Grenadier squads rather than chasing the MG42 with it. However, mortars would've left many of the Grenadiers you were fighting soft enough to achieve wipes against with pineapple grenades you value so much but instead the Axis player just knew he could just blunt your attacks while he controlled just enough of the map to squeeze out Panzer IVs. I felt it was unwise for him to go T4 and get a Brummbar since the Panzer IV is more than enough to kill 95% of what USF has and a pair of them would've left you with even bigger problems since a couple of times your Scott evaded his one and only Panzer IV.
    >
    > Indeed, he almost got himself in a lot of trouble when your Sherman Easy Eight showed up and the Axis player's Brummbar was covered by...nothing. He was able to extricate it in time and at a point even if it had been destroyed you had no units and no map control while the Axis player had veteran infantry and 2nd Panzer IV on the way. All it would've amounted to was a setback.
    >
    > At around the 12:00 mark I was...well I found your decision to capture a VP with a pack howitzer covered by nothing but an M20 to be foolish. The VP was the closest one to the Axis base, you immediately revealed a high value capture that cannot retreat to the Axis player and your M20 almost died along with it. Eventually it did die as light armor so often does but I couldn't figure out why you wouldn't at least position it between the victory point and the Axis base so you had some kind of warning that a big attack was coming. You might've been able to extricate your pack mortar then. Instead, it was captured! This was double egregious for me since these are explicitly things I warned you about previously that A. Pack Howitzers cannot retreat and B. The M20 is not a tank.
    >
    > Overall? Your force was too soft and didn't have enough heavy firepower to inflict casualties on the Axis player. Pineapple grenades were your chief source of damage output but they only served only to drain your ammo while the Axis player kept sending out more and more units with Schrecks, MG42s, and flamethrowers. Grenades are no replacement for mortars. At no point did the Axis player seem task saturated by checking your rifle squad attacks with his own Grenadiers. Even if they suffered casualties he still found the spare fuel and manpower and map control to tech and upgrade. The post game report showed you managed to inflict about 80ish kills on the Axis player but he killed nearly one hundred and eighty eight of your men in return. He was draining your manpower much faster with his balanced force than you were with your 4+ rifle squads.


    I agree with your analysis. I also realise I didn't have what I need vs the Chinese player and losing track of my 75mm as a replacement to my mortar was a big mistake. No weapon upgrades and at that point I just tossed the game away.
  • #11
    6 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 307
    Well I attempted to give a replay strategy vs wehrmacht unfortunately with the time I had the only match I had was that one and I played fairly trashy.

    If anyone els has the time perhaps they could show this fella or lady :smile: "ide hate to assume" a decent replay against a similarly skilled opponent.
  • #12
    6 months ago
    SimpleSimonSimpleSim… Posts: 73
    edited April 24

    I think the thing with USF is...your cover game needs to be good. Rifles are better than equivalent infantry units but only just better and trying to blob them around the map is risky against Wehrmacht. I have utterly trounced some USF in 1v1 with nothing but Pioneers and MG42s (Pioneers can do a lot of damage to rifles in close, and can kill partially suppressed rifles.) I know full well that most USF players will try to flank and pursue my MG42s with a mouth frothing zombie rush obsession. So you have more than one to cover each other. I dare you to play against USF someday and watch how much trouble you can cause by keeping your Pioneer squad right with your MG42 team. The only solution to that is mortars but what if he doesn't have one? Grenades are the other solution but how much ammo could he possibly have? Does he even have the tech yet? We're talking one, maybe two minutes into the game here and as long as he's trying to rifle spam you just match an MG42 per Rifle and 5 minutes in you own the map and the flame track/Pgren blob is on the way for the rage quit gg.

    With USF you should always pay in anything but blood. Retreat at the drop of a hat, do not bind yourself with a manpower drain. You need surplus manpower for REs to build precious (and cheap) fighting positions and supply depots. Surplus manpower for mortars which can respond to attacks from any direction and increasingly begin to operate within the safety of the multiple overlapping fighting positions/Brownings .50s and Rifles in green cover screening all directions. Keep retreating when things look bad, a 125mp fighting position isn't worth losing much over and Axis players can't occupy it. Your rifles are at their best on the attack when they're fully upgraded. (This is why it's not worth suffering many casualties with them in defense.) Once that happens, just one of them turning the corner of an unsuspecting MG42/Pak40 can ruin the Axis player's whole day. Blob not necessary.

    By late game you should have enough ammo and fuel that the rifles can basically stay at home and respond to 911 calls from the errant Stormtrooper or Grenadier back-cap. Shermans and Scotts should be grinding away the HQ w/Jackson in overwatch while each attack the Axis player conducts from it viciously punished by your Major's artillery strike and doctrine artillery if you have it. Seriously, the ideal situation for USF player late game is being able to drop a house on every contact, even a lowly Pioneer squad. Show them that "typhoon of steel" that so horrified the Japanese in the Pacific. Let him save up for that Panther or that Tiger. It'll be all he's got.

  • #13
    6 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 307

    more food for thought

  • #14
    6 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 307

    sad thing is in this one my 57mm does more damage to the jag than my Jackson.

  • #15
    6 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 598

    ~13min: its credible to see Stuart took hits from Rak, & you didnt hesitate to push M20 behind Rak to kill it. If it was me, I afraid M20 will take a faust and there is another Rak behind it to kill M20.
    At this time stamp, you have only a Rifle & a MG while having 1000mp. I would get a Ranger or Para to deal with enemy infantries at least. Not at the front, but on the flank, when their infantries hp is low.

    You field Jack too late, no wonder ATgun deal more damage than Jackson.
    I like your strong push in early game. I play style is more mouse-cat game.

  • #16
    6 months ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 307

    with the vet sight range of the m20 I had no other Rak spotted and I knew I could take at least 1 hit, Rak strong but cant take damage to well so m20 should drop it before it could turn.
    as far as the Jackson ya it was really late to play but it would have had no targets to vet up anyway which is a big downfall
    as I have have no Hvap for heavy tanks, Same sort of problem Rifleman suffer from when they get wiped Late Game and no vet.

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