Issues that slipped under Balance Radar and Repeating ''Tactics''

#1
10 months ago

Hello Relic!!!

New patch has arrived, and frankly I am quite happy for what has come out of it ( although having 5-6 months of development and making some really predictable mistakes like Tiger Rush with 0 Point requirements was really, really, ridiculous ) there are some things that you guys haven't even taken into NOTE* that are permanently taking their toll here (especially in bigger matchups, eg. 3v3 and 4v4)

But, without further due, lets get to the fun part :smile: (all these things have been pre-tested)

Biggest Issue, which from all the research I've done, somehow managed to skip almost 2 3 years of patch balancing and is currently STEAMROLLING on all logical and balanced* tactics, would most certainly be a......

T34 85

Small prologue: This unit, aside for ridiculously low price and pop cap, is considered a commander specific unit with 0 Point Requirements ( I think its time we remove this? ) which, in current meta, can ''Tactically'' outperform almost all other tanks, with such specific stats and traits ( for easier explanation I've also tested T34 85 on customs vs some other more famous and expensive tanks, and results were, if nothing else, extremely shocking )

Altrought its considered an upgrade over regular T34 76, it has almost same uses, but with massively oversimplified use due to stats increases

**T34 85 **

Pros:

  • Strong Anti-Infantry (both machine guns and Main Gun)
  • Strong Frontal Armor (currently can be compared to a Panther, and at some occasions even stronger) = No Joke
  • Strong Side Armor (multiple occasions side bounces and non-penetrations) = Happened also from Elephant
  • Extremely Accurate
  • A lot of utility ( ramming speed, capture points )
  • Ideal and in my opinion, best Infantry crushing tank ( I thought we balanced all of them with Cromwell and Comet nerf? )
  • Great Flanker
  • Strong ANTI TANK weaponry ( this tank literally deals same damage as a Panther with main gun )
  • Price : 380 Man, 130 Fuel (Oh look it also costs LESS than Panzer 4's, and panther costs 490 185 respectively)
  • Population Consumption : 14 (while panther is 18)
  • Narrow Profile ( can move more freely in city environments )
  • This tank can even counter KV 1, KV 2 without an issue

Cons:
-Literally only con is that it has slightly shorter range than Panther :smiley:

Now with all things considered, how is this fair? To have a call in ''Medium Tank'' that can outperform and out price all tanks in game? I've had effort of combining multiple allies from Discord and test-run this tank in comparison, and not a single tank (both allies and Axis ) was able to either directly duel him, or on even / un-even fights outmanouver it ( while also taking the price differences into note, some occasions I was even able to acquire 2 of these before they could even get near their 2nd tank )

Quite literally, T34 85 slipped behind all the balance* updates and changes, leading to some really troublesome and lets say... Predictable game outcomes, both on later and higher ladders, and not even going to comment how it feels for some of my newbie friends on lower ladders that find : T34 85 the MOST COMMON russian tactic nowadays, even making players abuse it being extremely cocky and arrogant ( which is more of a personality issue in my opinion... But we are here to talk why it is so Abusive tank atm)

Now, how to fix this?

Tank limitations = Max 2?
Stat Changes = Highly prefferable and recommendable to reduce combined spam tactics ( aka, building these 2 tanks and only 2 more units types )
Commander Points = 8 ?

Panther

-Now I am aware this is slight long shot, but for a tank that costs 450/490 Manpower, and 185 Fuel (which is damn much for Wehr and OKW, and if purchased, for a long time you wont see anything that has TANK in the name) and 18 pop ( damn )

Pros:

  • Quite fast
  • Good frontal armor ( but under performing, both due to historical ignorance here and comparison to other medium tanks)
  • Solid AT gun ( should be a lot more effective for its type... it takes 5 shots minimally for mayority of tanks, and even more for Heavy versions )
  • Increased Range ( more than medium tanks, but ISU and STUG still higher range...)

Cons:

  • Machine guns are completely useless on it ( compared to T34 85 and other tanks ), their DPS cannot even be considered an effective anti infantry weapon (tested)
  • Has a high tendency to miss / bounce its shots off targets
  • Takes Long time to repair ( and is not that hard to damage )
  • Extremely Expensive for what it provides
  • Doesn't bounce off shots (Churchill who has smaller caliber cannon and shell penetrates it more times than it bounces, on front side )
  • Feels like developers thought that Panzer 4 needed an older brother who can't shoot infantry with main cannon ( Literally we have tested, every 6th or 8th shell connects on infantry on No Cover field killing 1-2 members ) but has slightly higher range and better AT penetration ( which is still quite low )

This Panther tank has came to such un-useful position in CoH2 that , unless enemy specifically makes a mistake and lets enemy get 2 or 3 of them( if they can ever muster enough fuel for them), they only need to get AT guns and maybe 1-2 specialized AT gun to counter them, since Panthers are lategame considered Paper with more Health , and mediocre AT gun, which need long repair time...

Generally, I find from my long gaming experience, Panthers to be the Most Specialized and Flanking Medium / Cruiser tank with only singular Anti-Tank purpose, while also they have gotten a tuning down in last years patch, while also being the most expensive tank and LEAST PERFORMING tank for their price :neutral:

I am open to all suggestions on this thread, but the thing is, THIS NEEDS to get Balanced as soon as possible!!!!


ARTILLERY SPAM PRICE Issues (Big issue on 3v3 and 4v4)

Now, just to kick-off the idea here, why would Land Stuka cost 100 fuel and be a halftrack ( can be destroyed by arty without a problem) or Katyusha 85 fuel, when you can just call in a Mobile Artillery unit on 4v4 or 3v3 will do so much more, and award you with feeling of outplay?

For starters, I don't want to provoke any hate, since in case of Brits, Sexton is the 1 commander specific Artillery unit, but why is it so common that it is in Every Single Loadout?

Sexton

Pros:

-For a hefty price of 375 Man, 90 Fuel (lovely price...) and 14 pop, you get a Mobile Artillery unit who cannot be killed (unless extremely unlucky ) by enemy arty

  • High AoE shell Burst
  • Reliable Damage
  • MOBILE

Cons:

  • Short range
  • Weaker than Priest

PRIEST

Now this is a BEAST among mobile artillery, and massively outperforming both stationary, and even Heavy Stationary ( Yeah I'm reffering to B-4)

Pros:

  • Price 480 Man, 115 Fuel and 14-16 pop (i am not sure tbh) , and once again, this is QUITE cheap for units performance
  • High AoE Damage
  • High Range
  • Mobile
  • High Single Shell Damage ( 200 )

Cons:

  • literally, for its purpose, none

CALLIOPE

Now I know what you will say, how can I look forward to this patch update circle if I have a grudge on Calliope? Tbh, I am quite happy that calliope got brought back into game, but on 3v3 and 4v4 it has an newly growing issue of being both a Sherman Tank with an AT GUN, survivability against infantry and AT weapons ( takes 3 Panther or AT GUN in general to murder them ), Shells often Bounce off them

Oh and lets not forget, again Price:

380 Man ( are you mental?) 115 Gas ( This is just unfair ) and 14-16 pop ( unsure )

Making this unit the current King of 4v4 and 3v3 matchups (alongside T34 85 )

And this needs MAINLY to be exponentially more expensive and price worthy for counterplay from other nations
Old tactic would be a Flank Tank assault, but whats the point if it takes more than 2 shots to kill single target (and smarter players usually have good teammates to help out in such matters) and in other to make it even moderately worthy, you need to kill 2 of all these mobile artillery with, idk, your PANTHER to make it EQUALLY worth the price and effort

Looking from a point that you actually manage to get to them in this matter, from all the AT mines, the most common tactic that also comes with them:

  • AT gun spam
  • Bunker Spam ( no pop taking)
  • Few Echelors and Sappers for capping and repairs
  • Maybe few Riflemen for same purpose

Congratulations, your late game outplay tactic is literally 3 - 4 types of unit spam ( Arty Mobile > AT > Infantry for cap and most importantly , MG bunkers ) and you can call yourself a Tactician in RTS :smile:

Basically, Increase Mobile Artillery fuel requirements UP a bit ( to match up early Medium tanks, like 120-140 fuel for non-Calliope ones) so loosing them might actually feel like you lost something , since on DPS for good arty users their barrages usually come out higher than regular mid tier tanks

Increase their Pop taking ( cap at 16-18 )


Minor ''Under the Radar things''

KV 8

  • 0 Command Points for a heavy tank that literally walks into you mid tier of game, while Crocodile tank takes ages to summon and has more reasonable cost

Shock Troops

  • (I know this sounds bad) but currently every kids WET DREAM of an infantry, literally has BODY ARMOR, massive amounts of DPS, utility with 2 types of grenades and lets not even go into the efficiency of : Walks to enemy, deals tons of damage, I am a pro now tactician :smile:

Thank you for your time, and I can't wait for feedback :smile:

Comments

  • #2
    10 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 696
    edited July 2019
    First the panther and t34/85 have different roles. They cannot just be compared as 2 units with the same jobs. The panthers job is AT the t34/85 is being a better (premium) generalist tank.

    The t34/85 has less health and armour then the panther, its gun also has less accuracy and longer reload then the panther. The t34/85 is also slower and doesnt have heavy crush. And the t34/85 is doctrinal unlike both panthers.

    Its only pro,s over the panther are its price, its better ai and lower popcap.

    The t34/85 is supposed to be better the the t34/76 and even both p4,s.

    The panther 260 armour will bounce the t34/85,s 160 close pen quite nicely, and even more often from far away.
    The panther will 1 on 1 fights period.

    The t34/85 is meant push around both p4,s and punish inf. Wich it does nicely, but cant stand up to panthers and heavier while solo or unsupported.

    The fact that you believe the t34/85 can handely bounce as much as a panther and an even elephant shot is weird to me. considering it has 160 frontal armour. Wich is not low but defenitly not high either. Did you have the ostwind or luch as main AT or what?

    And also that the panthers gun has a tendancy to bounce.

    But i already spent to much time on this trolls thread.
  • #3
    10 months ago

    I would kindly ask you, if you have field tested this? T34 85 has won on more occasions vs panther up close ( tested and even experimented ) and even with these so called Health and Stat differentials, for ITS PRICE ( as you have stated aswell ) AND for the fact that its a LIMITLESS 0 CP call in unit , it has managed to OUT-DUEL Panthers, while KEEPING its proficiency vs Infantry :)

    Now I understand that you have dragged out these statistics ( I mean, If you find it Fair that this tank can even out-duel KV1 is fine... okay ) and that this tank IS cheaper than P4 variants, how do you exactly specify that it is balanced if it has Minimal to NONE counterplay options?

    Hell, even its Pop cap is smaller :)

    I am not stating these things to say "OMG germans NEED BUFFS" , I'm stating the OBVIOUS problem that we are having WITH T34/85 being IN LOWER RANKS complete wreckage due to its ALL AROUND EFFICIENCY and SUPREMACY (even against more specialized AT units), and lets not say in higher competitive as a Duelist Tank :)

    For someone who is so deeply in defending T34/85 I am unsure if you have tested his stats, bounces and gameplay in direct confrontations ( customs, etc ) to actually be eligible to demand your stats to be taken into notice

    There is Difference between Stats and Real Combat Performance, and the thing that really stands out is that out of ALL Medium/Cruiser Class tanks, T34 85 brings countless supremacy on every fighting field :)

    (and also... Different roles? Have you tried how easy it is to flank with T34/85?)

    I am really grateful you pointed out these stats ( although i would preffer direct numbers )

  • #4
    10 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 807
    Thanks developer that put T34/85 as a doc Soviet unit but not put them as non-doc unit in every Allies factions.

    Thanks developer not giving T34/85 panzer tactic smoke and blitz to escape every fight.

    Thanks developer that give T34/85 40 range not 50.

    I hope in the future, balance team add T34/85 in Axis doc units and remove Panther. In exchange Panther in Soviet and USF tier4 non doc.


    By the way, T34/85 is tied in Tier4, 60sec build. Not call in.
  • #5
    10 months ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 696
    Stats help explain things ingame. Such as that the panther should 100% pen a t34 85 if it hits. And elephant shot bouncing of the t34 85 should be/is impossible.

    The t34 85 is fine as is. Its at the top of medium tanks and in doctrines for good reason.
    Its only in 2 or 3 doctrines. The panther is non doc.

    The t34 76 while cheap is by far the weakest medium tank in the game and the best soviets can field non doc.
    So if the t34 85 was only margenaly better why bother with them at all.
  • #6
    10 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 807
    This isnt relate to this thread, but I dont think I should make a new thread:

    Last night I and other 2 friends had a 4v4 game City17 with this result:
    -Left flank
    USF (lvl300): 50k damage (me)
    Brit (lvl90): 23k damage (friend)
    vs
    Okw (lvl100): 33k damage (drop at 8-10min after I destroy his Luch)
    Okw (lvl85): 50k damage

    -Right flank
    Soviet (lvl300): 27k damage (friend)
    Brit (lvl230): 30k damage
    vs
    Ost (lvl30): 18k damage
    Okw (lvl90): 60k damage

    At the left flank, the Okw use Breakthrough doc, he had 3 Pzfusilier and 2 Volk (no sight of Sturm). What amazed me was I had 3 Riflemen 6 Bars (I didnt go double Bar until I realize Pzfusilier is somehow op) yet lost to 2 Pzfusilier Gs43, both no cover.

    I have 2 questions:
    - Is Pzfusilier that powerful? My Riflemen drop like flies vs them.
    - Is Okw so easy to play , or we're really that bad? Ignore the drop Okw players, 2 other Okw are below lvl 100 and deal massive damage.

    Note: I just did a cheat mod between 3 Riflemen 6 Bars vs 2 Pzfusilier Gs43. Result is 3 RM beat up 2 Pzfusilier with ease (both cover/no cover, no vet/fullvet). In the match every 4-5 men I lost, he lost 2. I dont want to say he cheated but the result between cheat mod & the match are much different.
    Im looking for some veteran who plays both side to know what do you think about this RM vs Pzfusilier case.
  • #7
    10 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    edited July 2019
    Bud. Heck out the stats instead of going off feels.
    The elefant can't bounce the t34/85.its statistical impossible. Same with the panther bouncing it... Also at like 130 fuel the t34/85 isn't cheap.... I legit only read the 1st complaint but I think that sets the stage.
    @vipper is our resident stats expert. He knows how to find them and all the formulas you may need (I go off memory so I can't help you finding them, sorry)

    I've seen a couple threads from you now, so hopefully this isn't just a passing fad for you and you are here to stay, but if you are here to stay please make sure you know the basics.
  • #8
    10 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    T-34/85 Armor: 160/80 Health: 800
    Panther Armor: 260/90 Health: 960

    Elefant Penetration near 440/Penetration mid 400/Penetration far 360

    Elefant has 100% chance to penetrate the T-34/85 at all ranges.

  • #9
    9 months ago
    > @VampirePrince said:
    > I would kindly ask you, if you have field tested this? T34 85 has won on more occasions vs panther up close ( tested and even experimented ) and even with these so called Health and Stat differentials, for ITS PRICE ( as you have stated aswell ) AND for the fact that its a LIMITLESS 0 CP call in unit , it has managed to OUT-DUEL Panthers, while KEEPING its proficiency vs Infantry :)
    >
    > Now I understand that you have dragged out these statistics ( I mean, If you find it Fair that this tank can even out-duel KV1 is fine... okay ) and that this tank IS cheaper than P4 variants, how do you exactly specify that it is balanced if it has Minimal to NONE counterplay options?
    >
    > Hell, even its Pop cap is smaller :)
    >
    > I am not stating these things to say "OMG germans NEED BUFFS" , I'm stating the OBVIOUS problem that we are having WITH T34/85 being IN LOWER RANKS complete wreckage due to its ALL AROUND EFFICIENCY and SUPREMACY (even against more specialized AT units), and lets not say in higher competitive as a Duelist Tank :)
    >
    > For someone who is so deeply in defending T34/85 I am unsure if you have tested his stats, bounces and gameplay in direct confrontations ( customs, etc ) to actually be eligible to demand your stats to be taken into notice
    >
    > There is Difference between Stats and Real Combat Performance, and the thing that really stands out is that out of ALL Medium/Cruiser Class tanks, T34 85 brings countless supremacy on every fighting field :)
    >
    > (and also... Different roles? Have you tried how easy it is to flank with T34/85?)
    >
    > I am really grateful you pointed out these stats ( although i would preffer direct numbers )

    Well I can tell you Panther test I've done 20 shots into t35/85 all 20 shots penetrated even with 3% increased armor bulletin.

    Non vet vs non vet panther the panther survives with 50%HP typically

    Also tested vet 3 t34/85 with 3% armor bulletin vs a non vet panther face to face close range and panther still survived at quarter HP.


    So if a t34/85 kills your panther it is because you were flanked takeing rear armor hits and had no support so either they made a bold gameplay and snuck around or you pushed up way to far and exposed your rear armor instead of keeping them in front of you and poking like a tank destroyer..

    Your options are to brawl it out panther pushes Jackson and wins or panther pokes like a tank destroyer and loses.

    Role is reversed vs t34/85 where you want to poke like a tank destroyer instead of risk a flank on rear armor.

    Now an okw panzer4 J model can still beat out a t34/85 as well even with 3% armor bulletin.

    All frontal shots.

    Out of 4 tries panzer4j won every match up 2 survived at quarter hp, 1 survived at half hp, 1 survived with 100%hp idk how but it bounced every shot and surprised the hell out of me actually as I've not seen that before super lucky.

    Vet 3 t34 vs vet 5 panzer4J
    Panzer 4J still survives at half HP.

    It takes vet 3 vs vet 0 to take out panzer4j head on otherwise you need to risk the flank without being spotted.

    Panzer 4J also has an mg gun upgrade makeing it better vs infantry and AA

    medium comparison Time to kill single squad of panzergrenadiers with any available mg upgrades.

    Only did 3 test runs against a spread out squad not in cover so no clumping.

    T34/85 19,14,23 seconds
    Panzer4J 16,19,14 seconds
    Is2 15,34,22 seconds
    Sherman HE 13,20,13 seconds
    Pershing 12,27,15 seconds
    Panther 14,19,22 seconds.

    Vs blob of 4 panzergrenadiers spawned as tight as I can get them.

    T34/85 41,47,1:08
    panzer4j 45,53,33
    Is2 36,43,58
    Sherman he. 56,56,51
    Pershing. 43,40,31
    Panther. 1:50,1:23,1:34
    Tiger. 40,38,39

    105mm dozer 27,40,33
    Brumbar. 28,31,37
    Ostwind: 25,29,40

    Difference in brumbar and dozer I find to be projectile trajectory mostly hurting the 105mm as targets are able to move away in my live game experience as brumbar shots get there quicker. Also of course brumbar can bounce more rounds and gives it the ability to move in on at guns or at the very least 57mm usf ones in my experience.
    The turret on the dozer gives it no great advantage other than maybe running forward while shooting backward at chasing infantry but how often will that be utilized might as well give it a spearhead ability lol.

    I also like the brumbar ability better as it gives it added range and damage.

    Idk maybe if the dirt hills could soak up direct fire shots that would atleast be better utilized forcing brumbar abilities or other forms of artillery idk it would be interesting.

    Is2 is great vs armor where as pershing is not so idk why the big difference between the two despite the very similar infantry kill times the difference vs armor is huge and also has a significant impact on veterancy.
    Plus I hate the pershings ability with a passion as it does no justice to the unit.

    To me for the cost of pershing, cp requirements and haveing not as much armor or as much HP should be pushing it twoards more of a glass cannon than what it is by comparison to other heavies or have really dam good abilities to make up for it because infantry kills really dont and that's if your not getting mass panzershek.

    Sherman HE well it is consistant I'll give it that at the very least but idk if it is enough to justify using and doing zero damage to armor plus the time it takes to switch back and forth.

    Per cost the panzer4J is the best well rounded tank out of all the above able to take out most mediums and do a number on infantry units as well, plus it seems to vet faster as it was the only one to reach vet 1 when wipeing 4 squads of panzergrenadiers.

    Only a t34/76 gets vet 1 at 14 infantry kills vs panzer 4j at 16
    Not even ostheer panzer 4 gets vet at 16 kills or Sherman for the matter as a more "Infantry support" role.

    To me it seems vetrancy based off of infantry kills is not very proportional to the unit cost and supportive role it is saposed to provide albeit I understand we dont want to have squads becoming wiped so Increased dps upon infantry has been nerfed time and again but these units then get vet how?

    Since they are at disadvantage against more heavily armed tanks typically requiring flanks even in some cases when they are more expensive and also less hp as in

    pershing vs panther
    You could argue pershing has better anti infantry but many tanks have similar damage profiles or better per price and can still do very good damage vs armor and possibly AA as well with lower requirements and or cost.

    Pershing vs tiger(equal price as pershing)but better armor and hp easily kills panther with improved infantry kill times over panther as well very similar to pershings infantry time to kill, speed negligable differance and gets blitz.


    Is2 vs tiger equal price very big toss up based on rng but is2 slightly wors vs infantry but both atleast have an mg and neither have to go right up on top of infantry to fully utilize tossing "grenades out a hatch" to risk getting snared and engin damaged.

    Overall pershing has an extremely hard time gaining veterancy.

    You can lower vet requirements sure but then you get increased vet vs armor as a side effect.

    So you then would either have to simply add more damage vs armor on that unit less specialized vs infantry or add a special bonus exp vs infantry per that units given role as an infantry support unit where its primary source of exp is coming from instead of lowering the overall veterancy requirement makeing it easier to gain a vet advantage.

    You could also tweak turret rotation and fire rates to make up for lack of frontal penetration on certain tanks to better benefit from flanking maneuvers but their are only so many ways to balance out how a tank behaves and is to be utilized wich I feel is lacking as all mediums feel very similar or underperforming so get cost reductions like the t34/76 was given.
    Not even an ability to increase reload speed out there.

    As of now lower cost does not necessarily mean easier to vet up either as you could see with t34/85 vs panzer4j as it looks to me to be doing wors vs armor and infantry alike as well as slower vet just on the few test runs I did do with those two.
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