British Forces (UKF) need a Rework ( revamp ) and re-specialization

#1
7 months ago

DISCLAIMER:
I will try to post my concern and ideology behind British nation ( UKF ) here, as brief as possible, and remain stable in keeping the gameplay as balanced as possible, while in same time keeping in mind the current state of game, and everything that's going downhill for our last DLC released playable faction in Multiplayer...

PROLOGUE

INTRODUCTION:

After spending more than 1000+ Hours on this game (combined from owning the game on my steam account and time spent on my friends pc and his account, while my pc was still in upgrade stages and money saving) I can say that the game has developed and balanced in the most beautiful, and reactive way...
But as it usually happens with games of these calibers, (Yes I do play League of legends and Yes I do play Starcraft 2 and many other games for YEARS, War thunder included, if not decades nowadays) I can say that a lot of times, balancing gets out of hand, ruining the specialization and uniqueness of an UNIT / FACTION / HERO and everything around them...

Now this, can happen usually due to the either:
a) Over performance of the singular squad/unit, in squad vs squad combat scenarios
b) Missunderstanding of the mechanic behind an units purpose ( not every infantry can duel other infantry on same battlegrounds )
c) Generally reworking everything around the units, shifting the way battlefield or such units form ( after alot of patches units will no longer remain in the same purpose they originally were )
d) Standardization, or also known, meta abuse tweaking ( in this case, Blob and gameplay that revolves around having 3-4 different units during whole match with straight forward gameplay )
e) DE-specialization, or also known, standardization of units in a form of removing their uniqueness ( every base unit in every nation should be equal to other ) regardless of both historical / situational / combat scenario. (this one we shall discuss more thoroughly)

Which brings us to the nation that ever since its release (around September of 2015.) has been getting tweaks and reductions to its specialization ( while I agree about some of the reductions since, lets be honest, garrison bonus on 17.pounder was OP ), British Forces have fallen so behind in gameplay satisfaction and uniqueness, that even their core infantry cannot stand against enemy core infantry on Latter Veterancies ( keeping in mind that UKF only has 2 infantry units , consisting of repair engineers and Infantry Section )

Maybe to best explain the current TIDE of BRITISH gameplay efficiency, is by reffering to my best friends review on playing the UKF forces ( His main nations are OKW > Wehr > Americans (rarely) )

His Words: Dude... Now I feel really sorry for you... But in the other hand I understand why you play UKF... It's in your Masochistic nature to enjoy such things

2nd College Friend I've introduced to CoH2 and he's been playing ever since the 2nd month of this year:

His Words: Damn I am not suicidal / depressive enough to play a nation that is so much nerfed and overally self punishing...
(and this guys main tactic is Turtle Combat, and he plays Wehr > Americans > OKW > UKF (cuz he likes emplacements) )

Overally, I have to agree with all these comments since I believe in the words of:

  • To truly know someone, walk a while in their skin
    And thats why I've spend quite a quality of time testing a multitude of nations, and I've found affection in all of them on their own unique ways ( although my main nations remain Wehr = UKF > OKW = Americans > Russians )

But, I have a feeling that I'm straying off the main topic here, but the point stands that UKF has lost alot of its potential and tbh, If I knew what was going to happen to the faction itself, I probably would've reconsidered buying the DLC (although I still persists and try to find a way to make UKF work in nowadays meta)

BRITISH FORCES ( UKF ) Current state:

CORE PROBLEMS:

Probably the best way to start the discussion is to reflect about the issues of the CORE unit of brits, the INFANTRY SECTION

Aside from being the ONLY infantry available for brits with a combat purpose, and at Tier 0 (we shall be further in thread reffering to this as t0, and further numbers, respectively)

In last September Update, British Infantry Sections got another nerf that was literally EXPLAINED as an reliability (while in core its ANTI RNG update ) to make them feel more consistent...
Damage Reduction from 14 - 12
Accuracy amplified over all ranges
Flares Update Vision reduced from 50 - 42

IDEA BEHIND INFANTRY SECTIONS:

Original Infantry Section ( and what sadly remained in all this ) is that, It represents an infantry squad of Glass Cannon units ( which have small health and die quite quickly ) but in same time they can deal alot of burst damage

Now, you have an CONSISTENT GLASS unit , which doesn't SCALE at all into lategame, compared to Grens / Panz Grens / Fusiliers / Obersoldaten

Many scenarios, and Frankly infinite amount of UPCOMING ones, can be reflected as: british infantry behind cover, enemy was able to run towards them on max distance without loosing more ( IF ANY ) models in straight forward charge ( regardless of BRENS, which are also story for later on)

British Infantry section is only effective in the early stages of game, where its advantage peaks out, but later on, this small advantage ( both with veterancies and weapon upgrades ) is outclassed by all of the OTHER NATIONS...

Oh yes, they can also throw artillery flares and build trenches ( their only advantage to other nations )...

IMPORTANT NOTE:
INFANTRY sections recieve:
a) Increased Accuracy while they are on the open ( unlike all other infantry )
b) Reload Slower
c) Cooldown between shots slower

Game doesn't explain to you that they are stronger in cover, as IF, they get buff when fighting from it (like british engies on Vet1), rather, they are WEAKENED when they are fighting out of IT !!!!!

Generally, British Forces would need these changes:
a) Revert to High Damage per shot or adjustment to accuracy modifiers per veterancy, that are not Vet3 25% bonus ( which is nothing compared to 40% buffs of other nations )
b) Drop rate of weapons decreased ( i am not sure how this is fair, but having british infantry use BRENS / PIATS gonna end up on whole battlefield covered with pick up weapons, which on all other nations DROP REALLY rarely... )
c) Return of specialization (Vet 3, Scoped Lee Einfields) to make unit feel UNIQUE (which these patches have been consistently ruining, the unique of nations infantry and gameplay ) - yes i was reading dev blogs on why and all, and its not something that couldn't be managed
d) An actual alternative to Infantry Sections and possibly moving their cover bonus to Vet 1 ( so unvetted feel similiar to all infantry, and on vet get engi buff, rather than nerf if WITHOUT cover)

Generally, having 1 infantry over whole game makes you easily predictable, especially if they are not scaling well

BRENs = Now this weapon is the absolute garbage of LMG... Needs deployment to shoot, has innefective medium long range ( due to reductions ) and weapon falls more often from the squads arms than the prunes fall off in early fall...
-Generally, sometimes you might refuse to give a squad BREN LMG, so that they might be able to execute a retreating squads 1-2 members since rifles are more accurate than this garbage of a gun

PIATS = in spirit of all the EMPOWERED bazookas and panzershreks ( yes im looking at Panzerfusiliers and Rangers, which are atm the abuse above abuses, killing some tanks with 4 shots... maybe 5 if its a classified medium ), British PIATS feel like a tutorial AT weapon you use before getting introduced to an actual one
-Generally, PIATS could use a rework or re-purpose, as maybe a light weight grenade launcher vs Infantry also ( I am looking at Rear Echelors grenade launchers ) but with less damage since they can equip them X2,
-Historically, PIAT is an actually re-modified mortar :lol:

In conclusion, Infantry Sections are over-standardized infantry with deficiencies from their original GLASS CANNON design, and thats why they need IMMEDIATE rework, and no more tweaks

TECH TREE ISSUES:

Following up to massive issue stated above, I believe that UKF could have a full late tier infantry inserted (yes I am offering an actual suggestion of an UNIT to the game, that comes in t2 (company command post) called:

Home Guard Sections

  • Now I will let your imaginations run wild, or maybe comment on this post ideas I've recieved on this thread, but Home Guards are the baselines of British Infantry forces stationed in Great Britain as (the name states) country guards (historical) before the main army appears
  • The idea is to switch Infantry Section to (company command post) as an elite/later british infantry, while Home Guards become the introductory troops brits can use ( while keeping the stats of their original infantry sections )
  • Or any ideas that pop up regarding this

COMMANDOES:
These units have so much fallen out of gameplay scaling that calling them commandoes is depressive... Frankly they would need bonuses and rework to their core gameplay mechanic to make them somewhat an actual assault and demolish infantry, rather than ambush (and yet again) Glass Cannons ( but without cannon, compared to, eg., Assault Grenadiers, Shock Troops or Infrared STG Obers, or better yet, Fallshirms who are generally and on all stats better than them nowadays)

-They have weak to almost none recieve accuracy per veterancy bonuses
-They are short range and ONLY short range
-Weapon upgrade is limited to a BETTER BREN ( which can fire on the move ) but ON MOST OCCASIONS you won't give it to them since its weaker than their silenced stens* (IRONIC isn't IT?)
-Expensive 3 Command Point Unit
-Expensive reinforce cost

These units are not only out of date, on multiplayer 3v3 or 4v4 are so unnecessary in 3 Command Point combat (since light vehicles and tanks appear then) that mayority of times, calling them out would doom you rather than actually help your odds

Ideas:
-General Rework
-Price and CP adjustment
-Reinforce costs and adjustments on gear

ROYAL ENGINEERS:
Although I've stated that these are mostly non combatants, even though RELIC is trying to make them an combat unit, they are also lacking accuracy recieved bonuses and what annoys me the most, their 60 ammo upgrade is NOT as POTENT as you would think
(Its actually quite nerfed, and yet it slows down your squad... Yippey yay another brit only thing that nerfs your squad and provides questionable buffs in regard to its price and speed redux)

BOFORS or AEC Decision:

Although as an idea of having a choice between having an AA / anti infantry emplacement or Armored Car which excels vs vehicles and provides utility, this is an option that is 80% times into bofors favor, and locks OUT AEC

Most of the time, people don't even make a choice here, unless there is luchts spammer and they just want to make his life misery by dragging this AEC out...

General Idea:
-Don't make ONE, lock OUT ANOTHER... This is wayyyy too punishing on this nation and REALLY counter productive... I like the possibility of having more mobile assault or defensive option as a brit with this tech, but compared to WEHR this choice is like choosing would you rather have a sweet or salty dessert on the end of a good cup of tea, rather than having a variety of choice to enjoy

I frankly wouldn't mind if they lock each other, but when I enter Tier 3 (company command post) that I am able to upgrade the one I missed out or refused to ( Like, even americans get all options enabled )

THIS (lock out another) DOES NOT REFLECT on TIER 4 (ANVIL OR HAMMER), I STATE IT HERE, and WANNA KEEP IT CLEAR, these 2 NEED TO BE SEPARATE, since they both PROVIDE different LATEGAME buffs and options for British Forces

CROMWELL TANK:

-Buff its MG please... this tank is equivalent of Panzer 4 , with a nice smoke shell ability, but overally under-performing against infantry and nowadays not even purchased since in 4-5 mins max of its purchase, he will be against tiger or Mass Shreck squads

CENTAUR AA:

The perfect example of balanced vehicle ( and I think this vehicle is on a good spot, same goes for Firefly, Comet, Churchill ).
But I wanna state it here, on regard of HOW developers removed his ability on Vet 1 ( barrage ) and then returned it, probably the ONLY thing that they did FOR UKF forces that returned a bit of their specialization / feeling that you are playing something unique and destructive

Same issue with shreks spam... usually gets 4 or 5 shotted nowadays by panzerfusiliers (which means 2 squads are enough to instakill it) (same goes for Firefly, Cromwell and a bit tankier Comet)

UNIVERSAL CARRIER:

BEFORE you judge, I agree with armor nerfs!!!!! TBH i've played vs them alot of game, and I can say they are quite stressful on Tier 0 and Tier 1 before you get adequate equipment to deal with them, and now when their armor is penetreatable with rifles and such, he is actually on good spot

  • I would suggest some kind of adjustment so it is actually viable as a transport drop off unit more, rather than upgrade rushing unit

FORWARD ASSEMBLY:
-Make it able to be utilized as both healing squad and retreat point building ( And i wouldn't mind that if this becomes a thing, that its cost is upgraded to 250 )
-Give it a possible upgrade to give old buff that makes emplacements feel as if they are full ( although this would mean only Bofors benefits, since Mortar and 17th pounder lost their stuff - Specialization thingies... )

CONCLUSION:
Generally, British Nation is overally behind in specialization, and playing them sometimes turns quite depressive since at most instances, you need to come up with a creative way to stop enemy from head on pushing, which becomes even more increasingly hard and impossible if they have stacked up ammo to call in heavy bombardments and clean your emplacements ( and i am okay with this )

BUT what I am not okay is WHEN a nations specialization and the FEEL of unit, gets standardized, and that's why I'm writing this threat and that British units would mayorly need an REVAMP

NOTABLE MENTIONS

SPECIAL OPERATIONS COMMANDER

Tank Hunters Infantry Sections

-Change CP from 2 to 1 (since 2 points is just mental...)
-return their ability to upgrade equipment (flares or medic) - Specialization...

M3 Ressuply Halftrack:
-CP from 4 to 3 ( or maybe 2, to match but NOT OUTMATCH OKW Feursturms new Medic Truck )

HOLD THE LINE:
-Clarify the way it works
-reduce its cost... for gods sake this commander has 2 abilities that both cost 250 ammo, and THIS ONE doesn't do ANYTHING particularly effective... Its planes assaults under HARD specific terms....

VANGUARDS OPERATION REGIMENT COMMANDER

Forward Logistics Glider
-Reduce the price on it, even if you have to remove retreat point... Price for calling it down is mentally high and even the ability is not enabled until T3
-Should be prioritized as production building with officer, rather than retreat plane production building ( retreat can be paid separately to be enabled ) so it can be called in early, like Commandoes one
-Could use commandoes reworks and tweaks aswell ( since vet 3 officer dies extremely fast )

TACTICAL SUPPORT REGIMENT

Forward Observation Post
-Make the ambient building reinforce capable
-Enable it earlier, but abilities in it to be available ( most of them ) dependant on CP currently owned ( for example, Air support on 12, and phosporus smoke on 8, like commandoes general )
-Reduce its CP requirements
-Make the range actually useful of its abilities ( and combineable with other assembly upgrades )

THANK YOU :blush:
For everyone who made it this far, I hope you enjoy this thread and comment on it respectively, and I hope they fix BRITISH FORCES so that they actually feel UNIQUE in their own way, rather than restrictive and somewhat depressive / masochistic with some of their core units :smile:

Comments

  • #2
    7 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 807
    Toooo long, I cant read through.

    But, the main problem of UKF is units involve around emplacement, that should be changed in Coh3. Split them in different commander, no more "heavy fortification". I know Ost is a defensive faction, but their defense isnt as stupid as Brit and especially Okw def commander.

    The tech can be rework with "tough but slow" and fragile but "super high mobile" like Maltida and Tetrach in mid game, like Churchchill and Comet in late game.
    - - -
    The specialize unit like PzGren and Ober, Tommy need rework. Elite doc infantry is truly need limitation in the future, they should aid you well in game, not replace the core.
    - - -
    There are little things like retreat point, no building made West army have too many advantage over East, I hope retreat point will be removed in Coh3, making mistake give opponent more opportunities to push.
  • #3
    7 months ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 289

    The most problem i find with brits its all nerf its gone trough without any real toughts on what and how most unit was intend to be designed for. if a unit get nerfed becouse it has too long range for e.g, it's more like "lets make it less 5 range" without any toughts around why it had 5 range more to deal with specific counterpart unit in that timing area. Once they realise its actually underperform they mostly just make quick fixes for it in kinda wrong direction just to compensate, and what we end up with its a unit that that simply dosent full fill its role anymore from what it was intended. It's just what i felt happen to the brit faction lately unfortenly. I know its hard to balance, but brits faction suffer a bit now i feel

  • #4
    7 months ago

    Generally, I agree... But even if you try to deviate from emplacement strategy ( which is not impossible ) you gonna end up lacking due to forced focus and over-standardization of british tech tree and units...

    As for a following up regard on patches:

    Helping Hans, who has been playing this game and streaming a lot of its content (also guy who, whom when i saw play, got me even more interested in the game),and around a year and half ago stopped playing Brits as his main stream focus since they have been nerfed and kinda lost their touch (the specialization and feel of uniqueness), and it was HIS MAIN nation (even his logo is brit medic carrying a german soldier)
    SkippyFX also once said that, even though brits aren't on list of his favorite factions, they are too mild and uninteresting to play and stream (no unique points)
    Grayshot Production also stated that even though the last patch was interesting for brits, it didn't cover the issues and lackings for core units and issues that brits have

    SUMMARY **
    Basically, British forces (UKF) has both lost its touch and **uniqueness
    , both on veterancies, mechanics and abilities, which is turning them into quite unreliable and un-interesting nation :neutral:

  • #5
    7 months ago

    Also I want to point out that yes, the thread i've made is quite big, but scrolling and going to the aspects that one finds important is simple since they've been marked and bolded (thickened) out in thread above... So there is no need for evading to read the thread due to its size, #C3Tooth

    Although I must agree, that British are momentarily forced around defensive play (which is quite depressive on its own), the thing that I forgot to mention in the thread is the AMOUNT OF VOICE BUGS that occur, like emplacements destroyed ( but just random trenches ), then Churchill and Comet sharing some voice overs, TANKS and AT gun getting destroyed, only to hear : Churchill Crocodile tank destroyed ( what?? the f--- ) and generally buggy commander abilities call outs (mix ups)

    Someone should really check these voice overs out(both bugs and lackings)... and possibly implant a few others so tanks have some MINOR variations (like comet tank driver talks as if he is driving a heavy smoking churchill...)

    And just to point out that there are UNITS who received this special treatment, Airlanding Officer ( a call in unit ) has amazing voice over, while he ain't considered a core unit :smile:

  • #6
    7 months ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 289
    edited October 2019

    SkippyFX

    Are you seriously? Don't even manage him in this conversation, his a noob that just abuse chees in 4vs4 to put up on his channel, no offens but theres really no strategy involved there to be inspire by if you just base above fact on what you watch on streams, since you dosen't seam to play the game yourself that much due to broken pc.

  • #7
    7 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 807

    @mrdjjag81 Any spam strat is abuse cheese in your meaning.

    Dont tell me you never see 5x Sturm; or 5x T34-85; or 3x Panther; 5x Fallschrim; 5x Riflemen; 5x Puma
    I see these most of the match, and truly sad that if one tries to use combine arm, they lose.

    Spam to win, its a game design flaw.
    Even in the beginning, Soviet is supposed to be a spam units faction.

  • #8
    7 months ago
    mrdjjag81mrdjjag81 Posts: 289
    edited October 2019

    i dont know if they design the faction after "selecting all units under one key" and move them around, let's put it this way: Its not very much micro involved and 1vs1 it's mostly what they try to design the game after right now. Helping Hans on the other hand its a gr8 excample if you want to study balance problem, it shows much more clearly when high level micro and strat it's involved imo

  • #9
    7 months ago

    @mrdjjag81 said:
    i dont know if they design the faction after "selecting all units under one key" and move them around, let's put it this way: Its not very much micro involved and 1vs1 it's mostly what they try to design the game after right now. Helping Hans on the other hand its a gr8 excample if you want to study balance problem, it shows much more clearly when high level micro and strat it's involved imo

    IMHO AI vs AI SHows major problems.... High SKILLS just SHOW how to circumvate certain problems.... Not HOW to achieve balance....

  • #10
    7 months ago
    Tooooo long……but I agree most of them……at least UKF need big rework……
  • #11
    6 months ago
    > @mrdjjag81 said:
    > (Quote)
    > Are you seriously? Don't even manage him in this conversation, his a noob that just abuse chees in 4vs4 to put up on his channel, no offens but theres really no strategy involved there to be inspire by if you just base above fact on what you watch on streams, since you dosen't seam to play the game yourself that much due to broken pc.

    I see you have missed the point...
    1.)I haven't put up the famous streamers to augment my argumentation, I've placed them to display WHY they, themselves, don't play UKF that often and what are the nations mayor drawbacks (which are much more direct than in, lets say, Russians)
    2.) I am also pretty sure you didn't understand the part where i did play this game back in 2016 / 2017, and since late 2017 I've been to playing it almost daily (once I got more reliable pc), alongside of testings/overwatching the statistics, changes, problems and every patch that came out (even though I joined the forums in late 2018 i believe, doesn't mean I was inactive)
    So don't even try to judge my skills budd :wink:
    3.) I will agree with toothy on matter of spammable things, yes, skippys channel is based on cheesy plays and mass unit spam turnarounds, but that's what this game is all about, even though he isn't the best player there is (he looses units, gets whipes) he has relentless fighting spirit and he enjoys what he does (and that's why he is enjoyable to watch and cool)

    And as for direct spamming regard, none of these things he did are un-counterable, yes, they are hard and annoying and sometimes they need tuning, but not on spam basis, but general unit performance...

    (hell 4 tigers push ain't nothing rare nowadays, but it's fun to wreck it, aswell it's to play it)

    But back to topic... Main problem is lacking of good infantry scaling and lower half of section (main topic) about generally unfitting gear and lack of unit specialization and overall usefulness / tactical fun in gameplay (units becoming standardized and stale)
  • #12
    6 months ago
    C3ToothC3Tooth Posts: 807

    Thing about I like to watch Skippy is not his skill, but the super fun in every match he plays. Either he wins or lose, he enjoys the match, which is the purpose of playing games.

    In other hands, if I want to watch skill play, I watch Hans, but actually I dont watch him much. I feel hes so hard core like, living into the game.


    I do accept losing if Im totally out played, not by raped by 10 Panther & a pair of King in big games. And thats pretty force me as USF player to spam Jackson because there is no other better option.

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