[OST][2v2+] Stuka Dive Bomb painfully over-efficient for its cost

2

Comments

  • #32
    3 years ago
    lordpeter3lordpeter3 Posts: 321

    @Mr_Smith said:

    @lordpeter3 said:

    Why not complain about the B4, it does the same damage every 45 seconds, has no warning at all and only costs 600 mp!
    Also it has great acuracy when you have vision on your target.

    Not even close:

    • The lethal radius of the B-4 is 5.6
    • The lethal radius of the Stuka is 15

    Thus. The lethal area of the Stuka Dive Bomb is 7 times bigger than that of the B-4

    • The pre-ninja-buff lethal radius of the stuka was 6.5
    • The proposed nerf is to reduce the lethal radius is so that we can bring it down from 15 to 9.5.

    B4 whipes tanks, stukas in general do not, thus damage whise B4 is better.

    lethal radius is a different matter, in which I have to trust your data.

  • #33
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,795
    Stuka does fair damage to armour as well. Its also in many doctrines (at least 3 that also have recon) stuka also doesnt reduce your mobile army. But ultimately an orbital off map isnt comparable to a building :/
  • #34
    3 years ago
    ArdanotusArdanotus Posts: 21
    edited June 2016

    Stuka is fine where it is [removed]

  • #35
    3 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343
    edited June 2016

    @Ardanotus said:
    Stuka is fine where it is. [removed]

    (pre-edit, your only counter-argument was that it is easy to dodge, and that it's a l2p issue)

    My argument is not that it is not feasible to dodge the Stuka Dive Bomb.

    My main argument is that the Stuka Dive Bomb is WAY too cheap for the way it performs. If the price of Stuka Dive Bomb should remain as cheap as it currently is, its performance should go down to reflect what you are actually paying for.

    The price-to-performance mismatch is massive, and that needs to be addressed.

    B4 whipes tanks, stukas in general do not, thus damage whise B4 is better.

    The Stuka Dive Bomb actually also deals more damage vs tanks (as it deals more damage on a bigger area, in general) than the B4 strike.

    • 50% larger AoE radius
    • 17% more damage
    • (the two are multiplicative)

    If the Dive Bomb wouldn't deal enough damage to kill tanks, it wouldn't have been able to kill on-map howitzers.

    However, as a tank counter the ability is extremely unreliable:

    • The lethal radius vs tanks is massively smaller than that vs infantry
    • Tanks are faster than infantry, and actually have a chance to escape the blast, even on short notice.

    The reason why Stuka Dive Bomb is such a specialized ability is exactly the reason why it is better to reduce Stuka Dive Bomb performance (to match its price; approach #1 at OP) than to increase its price (to match its performance; approach #2 at OP).

  • #36
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited June 2016

    OP is very clear in his post about the issues of this ability. i once made a similar post about it, yet not as well written as this.

    The fact that it has no red smoke and falls so fast is and always was prepostreous.

    @lordpeter3 said:
    No, no, no! The skuka is fine. It does almost no damage to tanks, it has a 10 second delay, a clear sound indicatoin and if you hear it and know were your squads are concentrated you can just move them a little bit and you are fine.

    If someone bombs your base with this ability then you are already doing something wrong as your opponent has to have vision first and then time it perfectly to whipe your squads. I think that if your opponent is able to do all that than he should be rewarded for the kill.

    Why not complain about the B4, it does the same damage every 45 seconds, has no warning at all and only costs 600 mp!
    Also it has great acuracy when you have vision on your target.

    Why not give allied nations a similar ability then? since all their damaging barrages leaves red smoke. i mean clearly if you think this ability is fine, you wouldnt mind allied nations having similar abilities?

    the closest thing to this is a damn propaganda strike.

    its not even difficult to hit something or kill something with this ability; im finding it rather easy playing as Wehr anyway.

    *Set up MG
    *spot 2 squads + encroaching while being suppressed
    *throw stuka a tiny bit behind them
    *watch as they can either run forward to be smashed by the MG or backward to be smashed by stuka doom dive

    • in most situations, the stuka dive WILL yield kills when i do this, as you really only have 2 seconds at most to get the hell outta there if you dont want to lose any men. and if you gamble you might end up losing all of em.

    and no you dont have a ton of time to even evade it due to its large area of effect, as OP pointed out, you only have like 2 seconds to get outta there if you dont want to lose any soldiers at all. and given how soldiers already do clusterfuck, you are more likely to lose more than just one or two soldiers.

    and it does almost no damage to tanks? yes it does. it does equal damage as the demo charge versus tanks (as far as i am aware), which is like 1/3rd hp or something around those parts. the bombing strike is an all rounder ability, that can damage tanks and one shot infantry. if it one shot tanks as well, you would have found the single most powerful ability in the game, compressed in to 160 munitions.

    talk about balance huh.

    and rather than saying: "well, you did something wrong if they bombed your base" then one should probably be saying: well dang, that should be nerfed right there. abilities were changed ages ago to not be cast over enemy bases, so why was this little bugger left out?

    thats just a poor excuse for horrible balancing. again, allied nations have nothing as devastating as this that can be flung over enemy bases, and all you need is a damn sniper to spot for you, or scout planes for a meager amount of ressources. (heard of allies that can help you with that? it is a team game after all).

    Stuka Should have red smoke and it should NOT be able to be hurled over enemy bases.

  • #37
    3 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343
    edited June 2016

    @Beardedragon said:
    Why not give allied nations a similar ability then? since all their damaging barrages leaves red smoke. i mean clearly if you think this ability is fine, you wouldnt mind allied nations having similar abilities?

    The issue with Stuka Dive Bomb is not so much an Axis vs Allies issue.

    • Abilities have to remain slightly different, otherwise we will be playing mirrored matches; that's not fun.
    • While I don't completely agree with the lack of warning flares, I do agree that this gives the ability a unique flare that should be preserved, if possible.
    • The real issue is that neither the lethal radius nor the lack of flares have really been accounted for in the cost (there was no cost adjustment after the unjustifiable buff).

    The issue is not even the fact that the Stuka Dive Bomb is the most cost-efficient ability in the game.

    • For each given purpose, there will always be one (specialised) ability that is the best fit to carry it out.
    • Unless we also want to make all abilities do exactly the same (boring)
    • I don't agree with the design that forces the enemy player to blob their troops so that they have better chance of avoiding wipes, but I respect it.

    Again, the real issue is that the Stuka Dive bomb is massively more cost-efficient than any other single ability in the game (except for cost-free Counter-Battery). This has to change.

    • It is the massively part that makes the performance of this ability so entirely unpalatable.

    *Set up MG
    *spot 2 squads + encroaching while being suppressed
    *throw stuka a tiny bit behind them
    *watch as they can either run forward to be smashed by the MG or backward to be smashed by stuka doom dive

    That's precisely the trick with Stuka Dive Bomb! The people who use it and still thing it's OK probably don't fully realize how massive the lethal radius of the Dive Bomb is.

    If more people knew how to use the ability, they would realize that they can fire the ability far enough to negate a retreat (when targeted properly, even if the squad retreats instantly they will get wiped) and also threaten the enemy squads if they remain where they are.

    and rather than saying: "well, you did something wrong if they bombed your base" then one should probably be saying: well dang, that should be nerfed right there. abilities were changed ages ago to not be cast over enemy bases, so why was this little bugger left out?

    Allowing any ability to be used in the enemy base is retarded. This should have been fixed months ago.

  • #38
    3 years ago
    lordpeter3lordpeter3 Posts: 321

    noone ever complained about this and all of a sudden everyone has hard feelings about the stuka.... Its an ability which needs some skill to be effective. Allies have teh p47 thunderbolths and the UKF verson both are pretty effective too, but cost more as they require less micro. Noone complains about those...

  • #39
    3 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950

    Why not smaller aoe but more demage?

  • #40
    3 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343

    @Widerstreit said:
    Why not smaller aoe but more demage?

    It could be an option, but we need to carefully define what the damage should look like.
    If you want the Stuka Dive Bomb to also wipe tanks on a bigger radius, what should the radius be?

    Unless something else changes to compensate, this would be unfair towards the Soviet IL-2 bombing run, which already has:

    • a significantly smaller AoE
    • 200 cost (vs 160)
    • Flares
    • Minimap indication (airplane)
    • Affords better reaction time between when the warning starts (flares) and when the bombs connect to the target
  • #41
    3 years ago
    vasa171960vasa171960 Posts: 92

    +1 Need change, ability is to strong. No flayers its a bad designe, only voice in battle its harder to hear and understand. And big AEO, so good damage.

  • #42
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,795
    @lordpeter3 this is something that comes up frequently actually
  • #43
    3 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    Its not sooo op. You mostly know where it will drop, I never lost real troops parts against a stuka strike. And it don't destroy tanks like the soviet strike.

    Maybe one red smoke flare (not 3) half aoe and double damage. So it will destroy tanks, builings and emplacements (if not fixed) but no blobbs. So it becomes a real StuKa.
  • #44
    3 years ago

    @Widerstreit said:
    Its not sooo op. You mostly know where it will drop, I never lost real troops parts against a stuka strike. And it don't destroy tanks like the soviet strike.

    Maybe one red smoke flare (not 3) half aoe and double damage. So it will destroy tanks, builings and emplacements (if not fixed) but no blobbs. So it becomes a real StuKa.

    In some instances yes, however, if your enemy knows that you know they're going to put it a few steps behind and them bam, you've lost 2 squads and half health on your tank and there was nothing you could do about it. At least with nearly every other ability you have a choice to stay and gamble or retreat.

  • #45
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited June 2016

    @Widerstreit said:
    Its not sooo op. You mostly know where it will drop, I never lost real troops parts against a stuka strike. And it don't destroy tanks like the soviet strike.

    Maybe one red smoke flare (not 3) half aoe and double damage. So it will destroy tanks, builings and emplacements (if not fixed) but no blobbs. So it becomes a real StuKa.

    destroy an emplacement that isnt braced for 160 munitions?

    no.

    destroy tanks for 160 munitions? no.

  • #46
    3 years ago

    I agree with everything you say. Its a very frustrating ability, losing full vet squads to it. The annoying things are that does full damage while retreating, can't be shot down and the regular use( specially in team games were they build ammo caches).

    Solution
    If they don't want to add the flares, why not add an icon on the radar(a visual warning is a must). The cool down must be adjusted and the lethal area reduce, the price can stay the same.

  • #47
    3 years ago

    +1 with Mr Smith.

  • #48
    3 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950

    @Beardedragon schrieb:

    @Widerstreit said:
    Its not sooo op. You mostly know where it will drop, I never lost real troops parts against a stuka strike. And it don't destroy tanks like the soviet strike.

    Maybe one red smoke flare (not 3) half aoe and double damage. So it will destroy tanks, builings and emplacements (if not fixed) but no blobbs. So it becomes a real StuKa.

    destroy an emplacement that isnt braced for 160 munitions?

    no.

    destroy tanks for 160 munitions? no.

    Soviet ability dose the same? Increase Stuka costs to 200mun and it is fine.

  • #49
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited June 2016

    @Widerstreit said:

    @Beardedragon schrieb:

    @Widerstreit said:
    Its not sooo op. You mostly know where it will drop, I never lost real troops parts against a stuka strike. And it don't destroy tanks like the soviet strike.

    Maybe one red smoke flare (not 3) half aoe and double damage. So it will destroy tanks, builings and emplacements (if not fixed) but no blobbs. So it becomes a real StuKa.

    destroy an emplacement that isnt braced for 160 munitions?

    no.

    destroy tanks for 160 munitions? no.

    Soviet ability dose the same? Increase Stuka costs to 200mun and it is fine.

    what emplacements are you counting here and what ability are you refering to? because im talking about emplacements with the hp value of british mortar pits, BOFOS etc. for OKW maybe that could be their halftracks.

    we aint talking bunkers here.

    and you didnt mention which soviet ability you meant so i am unable to know which ability you refer to. soviets dont have any abilities that can smash halftracks, and wehr has no emplacements bigger than bunkers.

  • #50
    3 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited June 2016
    Soviet bombing-run kills every german unit. That is what I am talking about, this ability isn't op eider. StuKa is underpowered if you compare them.

    Increase Stuka damage to same level, give it half the aoe and add one red signal flare. The result is a AT/emplacement strike. Noobs which really lose inf against this ability will be happy. Germans will be happy because they can use it like a real StuKa.

    Before you write anything. Brits can "fix" their buildings to prevent them. And you can move your units. If you have bad ears and eyes than stop playing thus game.

    Off-topik: Remove the signal flares from Gustav. Make a signal on mini-map and a voice-report.
  • #51
    3 years ago
    lordpeter3lordpeter3 Posts: 321
    edited June 2016

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @lordpeter3 this is something that comes up frequently actually

    Really? I have seen it once. and it never happened to me. Maybe thats why I am bias on this one.....

  • #52
    3 years ago
    whitesky00whitesky00 Posts: 407

    @Widerstreit said:
    Soviet bombing-run kills every german unit. That is what I am talking about, this ability isn't op eider. StuKa is underpowered if you compare them.

    Increase Stuka damage to same level, give it half the aoe and add one red signal flare. The result is a AT/emplacement strike. Noobs which really lose inf against this ability will be happy. Germans will be happy because they can use it like a real StuKa.

    Before you write anything. Brits can "fix" their buildings to prevent them. And you can move your units. If you have bad ears and eyes than stop playing thus game.

    Off-topik: Remove the signal flares from Gustav. Make a signal on mini-map and a voice-report.

    Flare vs. no flare. OP enough.

  • #53
    3 years ago

    They should remove the ability to target base areas.
    That has never made any sense, and certainly goes against the idea that players should have a chance to react to call-ins - especially once so many people started using it to get easy wipes on retreating units at bases.

  • #54
    3 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    The reason why you can shoot into base is, that you can destroy Katjushas etc.

    Do you really lose so much by Stuka strikes? You hear exactly where it dops. Simply move you units?
  • #55
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited June 2016

    @Widerstreit said:
    The reason why you can shoot into base is, that you can destroy Katjushas etc.

    Do you really lose so much by Stuka strikes? You hear exactly where it dops. Simply move you units?

    wrong.

    you hear in what vicinity it lands, but its not always that obvious exactly where it will land. if it had red flares, i could tell where it landed.

    why are we not allowed to make bombing runs in your base against your artillery units likewise then? do you really lose so much by having this change reverted? you see exactly where they drop. simply move your units?

    if you have vision over the enemys base with a sniper or recon planes, then you're not supposed to just completely wipe the enemys entire army because he lost a fight and had to retreat back to his base. all his units will be killed by that 160 munition stuka then.

    an entire game lost because he retreated. thats not even remotely fair. thats why ones base area should be a safe haven.

  • #56
    3 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    I would be for one flare, ~half the aoe range and ~double damage.

    You can see it, no blob smash anymore and it is no joke anymore if you really hit something.
  • #57
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited June 2016

    @Widerstreit said:
    I would be for one flare, ~half the aoe range and ~double damage.

    You can see it, no blob smash anymore and it is no joke anymore if you really hit something.

    how much damage does the stuka bomb dive deal to british emplacements that arent braced now? just out of curiosity.

    is it 1/3rd of its hp?

  • #58
    3 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    Yes, around 1/3. Not enough in my eyes. It is your fault if you don't brace down. Or is it to much micro to use the button? ^^
  • #59
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited June 2016

    @Widerstreit said:
    Yes, around 1/3. Not enough in my eyes. It is your fault if you don't brace down. Or is it to much micro to use the button? ^^

    its not about micromanagement its about the fact that brace structure has a cooldown.

    step 1: send in volks (now sturms) with shreks or what AT you have and focus fire his what ever building you are after
    Step 2: he braces while trying to reinforce it with soldiers, since you were sneaky
    Step 3: you wait for it to go away
    Step 4: according to you, your 160 munition bomb should then completely destroy his emplacement? or what? leave it at very little hp.

    you cant expect to destroy expensive emplacements that are very crucial to a faction by the mere push of a 160 munition bomb.

    not even the 12CP – IL-2 Precision Bomb Strike from the soviets destroys your OKW halftracks, it leaves it with like 20% hp (at least they did last time i tried them), and that cost quite a bit of munition to be dropped, and requires a high CP requirement as well. yet a 160 munition bomb is supposed to perform the same in your eyes in terms of destructability?

    i'd say not today, not ever.

  • #60
    3 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343

    @Widerstreit said:
    Yes, around 1/3. Not enough in my eyes. It is your fault if you don't brace down. Or is it to much micro to use the button? ^^

    Good point. I wasn't aware of this (I almost stopped playing Axis when emplacement-spam became meta)

    Luckily, damage vs emplacements could be changed without affecting damage vs other units, though.

  • #61
    3 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited June 2016
    It shouldn't insta kill emplacements. But around 1/2 should be taken if not brace down or has the def-upgrade.

    More important is a at-modifier. Tanks should be one-shoted.

    200mun
    1 flare
    smaller aoe
    At-modifier *3
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