[USF] Bazooka

#1
3 years ago

Risky topic, but just for a quick oppinion.

With schreck moved to the sturmpio's and the issue of at weapons and at snares on teh same unit. Isn't it time that zooks were no longer available for rifflemen?

Though they will still be available for echelons, rangers, paratroopers, luitenants, captains and majors.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • #2
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495

    What about british Piats and Panzergrens?

  • #3
    3 years ago
    whitesky00whitesky00 Posts: 407

    I barely ever put more than 1 zook on my riflemen squad because they'll get decimated by volks. I just save up for my jackson.

  • #4
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    edited June 2016

    Shreks are far more powerful than bazookas if shreks were as pitifully weak as zookas, volks wouldn't have needed a buff, shreks eat all armor alive. Also, US has poor AT before the jackson, the OKW has great AT All game (best AT light vehicle, best TD, best medium tank, tier 0 ATG)

  • #5
    3 years ago
    marcjsmarcjs Posts: 69

    I agree with removing the Bazooka from the riflemen because its the same issue as volks with shreks it makes them anti all squads though to be fair i think the piat is more of a issue than the bazooka.

  • #6
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495

    no it doesnt lol

    If you have problems with AI that you cant deal with as either Wehr or OKW normally, you can get a panzerwerfer or a stuka.

    the USF cant do the same.

    the bazooka is not very good compared to the shreks so they pose less of a problem for nazi vehicles.

    furthermore, as someone already explained, no one gets more than 2 squads of bazookas anyway because they need the majority of riflemen with bars to deal with axis infantry.

  • #7
    3 years ago
    marcjsmarcjs Posts: 69
    edited June 2016

    @Beardedragon said:
    no it doesnt lol

    If you have problems with AI that you cant deal with as either Wehr or OKW normally, you can get a panzerwerfer or a stuka.

    the USF cant do the same.

    the bazooka is not very good compared to the shreks so they pose less of a problem for nazi vehicles.

    furthermore, as someone already explained, no one gets more than 2 squads of bazookas anyway because they need the majority of riflemen with bars to deal with axis infantry.

    your point its rather mute do to the whole "nazi" line which should get you instantly banned.

    the panzerwerfer is in T4 which a worthless tier their only other choice is the ostwind which even the allied players think is a joke.

    Stuka is only good verus weapon teams or aiming at a retreat point and both of the axis arty units are outranged by everysingle allied arty unit ....

    bazooka fire much faster than shrieks and since theirs no such thing as 0% chance in this game it makes a real difference

    and usa riflemen dont need anyupgrade to beat the crap out of the axis riflemen ...

  • #8
    3 years ago
    GenObiGenObi Posts: 1,368
    edited June 2016
    There is disadvantages to equiping zooks for rifleman.

    Trading in 20% Dps for a medicore 1/3 pentrating power 80 damage weapon at 50 mun isnt a good value.

    Especially consideing that in order to re establish effect AI dps on rifle you would have to spend another 60 mun for bar to restore a riflemans dps.

    Piats literally just move the unit to aviod damage, they arnt heat seekers like shreck rounds.
  • #9
    3 years ago
    WunderKatzeWunderKat… Posts: 718
    edited June 2016

    Seriously? The weapon rack is part of USF design; flexibility.

    Besides bazookas are way way way less potent than Panzerschrecks. They do 80 damage and literally have only about a 50% chance to penetrate medium tanks. To make them effective you really have equip a lot of them. A LOT OF THEM.

    Also remember bazookas are locked behind a fuel cost, schrecks weren't.

    The issue with the scherck is that if you have five squads you can literally 100 to 0 a medium tank with near 100% chance to penetrate and mid game they just delete light tanks (which 90% of what Relic tries to do is make light vehicle play more viable). Not only do German tanks start out with more armor (180 on P4s vs 160 on sherman/cromwell) but they get armor with vet meaning they actually out-scale bazookas late game.

    USF doesn't have Panther's or extra armor with vet they never out scale schercks.

    The USF ATG is still meh, it has it's merits but it's not a Pak or 6 pounder. It would unfair to force people to rely on that into late game.

    If you really really hate it then you could consider forcing riflemen squads to chose between BARs or Bazookas but still it's really not a problem and it 100% fits with USF faction design.

    And right now it really bazookas on riflemen are very important for early 222. swarms and hungry packs of tank shredding Stugs.

    Schrecks on volks is also not part of their faction design. The info graphic is pretty clear that OKW is suppose to use specific counters.

    Now British PIATs are another matter because they have that stupidly fucking high deflection damage which means it never gets out scaled and flexibility is NOT part of their faction design yet for some reason they have weapon racks.

  • #10
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited June 2016

    @marcjs said:

    @Beardedragon said:
    no it doesnt lol

    If you have problems with AI that you cant deal with as either Wehr or OKW normally, you can get a panzerwerfer or a stuka.

    the USF cant do the same.

    the bazooka is not very good compared to the shreks so they pose less of a problem for nazi vehicles.

    furthermore, as someone already explained, no one gets more than 2 squads of bazookas anyway because they need the majority of riflemen with bars to deal with axis infantry.

    your point its rather mute do to the whole "nazi" line which should get you instantly banned.

    the panzerwerfer is in T4 which a worthless tier their only other choice is the ostwind which even the allied players think is a joke.

    Stuka is only good verus weapon teams or aiming at a retreat point and both of the axis arty units are outranged by everysingle allied arty unit ....

    bazooka fire much faster than shrieks and since theirs no such thing as 0% chance in this game it makes a real difference

    and usa riflemen dont need anyupgrade to beat the crap out of the axis riflemen ...

    Whats the problem? Is the term nazi prohibited on the forum? sure if i called a person nazi but i did not, i called a faction fighting for Der Fürhrer Nazi. i dont see the problem. they kinda fought for the nazi empire and its banners. calling them nazies is not historically wrong. i dont care much for peoples need for political correctness that calling a faction what it was is hurting peoples feelings for what ever reason.

    i am not a german, and where i come from, calling a faction, in a world war 2 game, nazi when they fought for hitler, isnt really an offense. they fought for hitler did they not? they most certainly did not fight for democracy or communism, so i dont understand your anger. even if only 10% of the entirety of the fatherland were dedicated nazies, the factions, OKW and Wehrmacht still fought for the nazi regime, ergo, they are nazies because that is where their allegience lies.

    and i yes i know that stuka/panzerwerfer is a late game unit which doesnt really help them mid game. but really, ever heard of a rifleman bazooka spam? i have and its absolutely terrible. no one uses it. if a USF player spends most his units to carry bazookas, he will fare very bad at Anti infantry. This is pretty much why they have jacksons, to deal with those tanks.

    and allied players thinks the panzerwerfer is a joke? its absolutely beastly. the only thing thats a joke is how the Tier 4 works for wehr in general, as imperial dane pointed out in another thread.

    the panzerwerfer itself is not bad.

    and yes they do need upgrades. normal grens with upgrades will not lose to riflemen without upgrades if both are in green cover.

    Riflemen with no upgrades will not win versus Volks with upgrades if both are in cover.

    so yes, they do need their upgrades.

  • #11
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,020

    Either prevent Riflemen from getting bazookas or take away their AT nade. Only change that needs to be made.

  • #12
    3 years ago
    marcjsmarcjs Posts: 69

    By saying their nazi units you are imply that the people using them in this case PLAYERS are nazis and that shouldnt be acceptable (not to mention relic activity doesnt want history in this game)

    i said the ostwind is a joke not the panzerwerfer its issue is t4 as you mentioned

    theirs no reason for your situation to happen since riflemen can just walk towards the axis with no issue hell now the mg42 is more broken now that its job to fight riflemen is mute thanks to a t0 mortar ....

    (plus your Lmgs dont need to be stopped to use unlike the Wher ones ((though obers can also do that and brens ...))

  • #13
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited June 2016

    @marcjs said:
    By saying their nazi units you are imply that the people using them in this case PLAYERS are nazis and that shouldnt be acceptable (not to mention relic activity doesnt want history in this game)

    i said the ostwind is a joke not the panzerwerfer its issue is t4 as you mentioned

    theirs no reason for your situation to happen since riflemen can just walk towards the axis with no issue hell now the mg42 is more broken now that its job to fight riflemen is mute thanks to a t0 mortar ....

    (plus your Lmgs dont need to be stopped to use unlike the Wher ones ((though obers can also do that and brens ...))

    by saying the faction is a nazi faction i am not implying the people playing them are nazies. dont start assuming things. dont start thinking that i have hidden messages in what im writing and im implying things because i do not. i am a guy, i do not have implications, i write what i mean.

    players using the faction, are not nazies even though the faction itself is.

    players using the USSR, are not communists despite the faction is. so no, i am not implying anything. im a scandinavian, and i mostly play as the soviets. that does not secretly make me a communist either.

    we will leave it at that, because i do not want to be the reason (along side you) the thread gets locked for derailing because you start assuming things.

    Tier 4 is odd for the wehrmacht faction that is true. but i wouldnt call the Ostwind directly useless specially not against the soviets that does not use handheld AT weapons nor against the brits since the PIATS are absolute garbage. the ostwind can be bad, however, against the USF due to bazookas that much is true. its damage is on off, on times it appears to deal reasonable damage, but on most cases it doesnt deal a ton. i agree that it somewhat fails to be a dedicated AI tank, and something should probably change with it.

    I dont think, though, that the Bazookas should change from the riflemen out of two definitive reasons.

    1: they do not perform as well as panzershreks. they are worse than shreks, and german armor have higher armor, and hp. a group of riflemen with bazookas, does not pose as much threat as a group of old volks with shreks or for that matter panzergrens withs hreks.

    2: No one amasses a ton of riflemen with bazookas because it will not win you the game. the Volks lost their shreks because people had been complaining from day 1 thata big blob of 4 volks ran around with panzershreks, destroying allied vehicles, which are already rather low on durbility. People disliked this. i disliked this. couple a few tanks in the game and some fussiliers, and you had yourself a great victory.

    the same strategy cannot be worked out by the riflemen in that same case so theres no reason to remove the bazookas from riflemen.

    maybe it works in theory that bazookas can be an annoyance to your tanks, but in all practicallity, a bazooka blob does not work. a Volk blob with shreks? they certainly worked, and was now finally changed.

  • #14
    3 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,602

    @lordpeter3 said:
    Risky topic, but just for a quick oppinion.

    With schreck moved to the sturmpio's and the issue of at weapons and at snares on teh same unit. Isn't it time that zooks were no longer available for rifflemen?

    Though they will still be available for echelons, rangers, paratroopers, luitenants, captains and majors.

    Thoughts?

    Shreck volks were complete cancer.

    Rifles are more expensive, zooks are less effective and force you to give up more AI potential and axis tanks have more armor.

    Plus, it goes against the faction core mechanic of weapon racks and high rifle adaptability(because you know, USF does not have any other reliable infantry they could use instead).

    Bad idea is bad.

    Well deserved nerf for one faction does not excuse removing minor inconvenience on another faction.

  • #15
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    1. Rifles are expensive, bazookas are way less powerful, and axis armor is tougher. And it requires a fuel-upgrade to be able to purchase, the analogy to volks-shreks is a terrible one.
    2. Can we please stop referring to bad game design as "cancer" it's trivilizing a real issue and feels offensive, can we stop that? I'd really appreciate it.
    3. No one is implying axis players are nazis, just that those are what the axis factions themselves are, it's just a shorthand descriptor, easier than saying "Ostheer and Oberkommand der Wehrmacht" Don't worry we don't think you're a nazi, hopefully no one here is one.
    4. Piats are quite weak as well as they're basically impossible to hit with if a vehicle is micro'd, they don't need a nerf either.
  • #16
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited June 2016

    to elaborate a bit on when i wrote PIATS and panzergrens: i did not want panzergrens to lose their shreks nor do i want infantry section to be unable to receive Piats.

    i was just curious as to why Riflemen was the only one who should lose their ability to equip bazookas according to OP. this game isnt a mirror match, so because volks loses the ability (after people raged for ages), doesnt mean theres any need for other factions to do the same.

    guess i should have written that and elaborated there.

    and yes, PIATs are shit, and panzergrens are fine.

    but so are riflemen with bazookas.

    nothing else of this sort needs to change.

  • #17
    3 years ago

    @MCMartel said:
    1. Rifles are expensive, bazookas are way less powerful, and axis armor is tougher. And it requires a fuel-upgrade to be able to purchase, the analogy to volks-shreks is a terrible one.
    2. Can we please stop referring to bad game design as "cancer" it's trivilizing a real issue and feels offensive, can we stop that? I'd really appreciate it.
    3. No one is implying axis players are nazis, just that those are what the axis factions themselves are, it's just a shorthand descriptor, easier than saying "Ostheer and Oberkommand der Wehrmacht" Don't worry we don't think you're a nazi, hopefully no one here is one.
    4. Piats are quite weak as well as they're basically impossible to hit with if a vehicle is micro'd, they don't need a nerf either.

    Well said.

    I think it's very disrespectful to refer to issues with COH2 as "cancer". I am lucky enough to not have that happen close to home but it's a serious thing. It seems to be a trend that is limited to COH2 players and it needs to stop. Some people have very mentally impacting issues surrounding such a terrible disease so please don't, for everyone's benefit.

    I understand this is off-topic but still very important nonetheless.

  • #18
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited June 2016

    @d4rkhawk100 said:

    @MCMartel said:
    1. Rifles are expensive, bazookas are way less powerful, and axis armor is tougher. And it requires a fuel-upgrade to be able to purchase, the analogy to volks-shreks is a terrible one.
    2. Can we please stop referring to bad game design as "cancer" it's trivilizing a real issue and feels offensive, can we stop that? I'd really appreciate it.
    3. No one is implying axis players are nazis, just that those are what the axis factions themselves are, it's just a shorthand descriptor, easier than saying "Ostheer and Oberkommand der Wehrmacht" Don't worry we don't think you're a nazi, hopefully no one here is one.
    4. Piats are quite weak as well as they're basically impossible to hit with if a vehicle is micro'd, they don't need a nerf either.

    Well said.

    I think it's very disrespectful to refer to issues with COH2 as "cancer". I am lucky enough to not have that happen close to home but it's a serious thing. It seems to be a trend that is limited to COH2 players and it needs to stop. Some people have very mentally impacting issues surrounding such a terrible disease so please don't, for everyone's benefit.

    I understand this is off-topic but still very important nonetheless.

    having two people say the same isnt important. when one says he finds it disrespectful, i find no need for another to almost copypaste and write the same.

    To merely use the word cancer in this situation isnt directly wrong. its a modern term accepted in our society as describing something bad. in this case, the Volk shrek spam which was "Cancerous", as in, it was very bad, and spread like a wild fire since everyone was using it.

    its sort of slang when used in that context yet still accepted. people die from different things, that doesnt mean the rest of us cannot use the word specially when its widely accepted.

    its like the phrase: For christ sake. none of us cares, yet some overly religious guy would say you take the lords name in vain.

    Its just a figure of speech really.

  • #19
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Hey, Mods, can we get a ruling on this, I'll go with what you guys rule.

  • #20
    3 years ago
    Sgt_SchultzSgt_Schul… Heidelberg, Baden-Württemberg, GermanyPosts: 57

    This thread has become an abomination. We need an admin to do some serious editing work to clear this of toxicity and disrespect. Also: delete this comment when such actions are carried out.

  • #21
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited June 2016

    @MCMartel
    i am fine with whatever because i dont use the phrase "cancerous", i just made my two cents on whether they were considered normal phrases in our modern day, or not.

    @Karbinder there is no toxicity or disrespect in this thread. where do you find it? maybe you should be a little less sensitive. no one has been flamed, no one has been called names. the tone is fine.

    but obviously, we have completely derailed everything by making big comments one the two words "nazi" when talking about a german faction, and "Cancer" when describing the old volk shrek spam. rather than just looking at the words for what they are, people decided to go to great lengths to explain their disdain in those words and im sitting here putting fuel on the fire as well by defending the usage of said words.

    GG its all derailed and not one single person is to blame.

  • #22
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,817
    This is getting off topic but we can bring it back!
    Shreks > zooks for the same reason you wouldnt expect a puma to take out a tank over a p4- sure it shoots faster, but its not reliable and it deals less damage. If rof and cheapness was all that mattered the okw wouldnt need a JT when they have a luchs. Volks shrek was bad for the game (kinda like cancer is to its host) and needed to be cut out to save the game (....) its a tactical rts and anything that rewards removal of tactics kills it slowly (kinda like a disease of sorts....)
  • #23
    3 years ago
    The Big Red 1The Big R… Daly City, CA, USAPosts: 681
    edited June 2016

    Looking at these two weapons it is an obvious and serious mismatch if you ask me
    Bazooka:
    Damage - 80
    Pen - 130/120/110

    Panzershreck:
    Damage - 120
    Pen - 180/170/160

    if it were up to me i would buff the damage of the bazooka from 80 to 100, buff the pen from 130/120/110 to 160/150/140, but increase the reload time (how much depends on you) in order to give USF rough parity into surviving late game as the only saving grace is the M36 Jackson (not so sure about the 57mm ATG tho)...

    Brit PIAT is fine where it is because the trick to doing maximum damage to the axis more-bang-for-your-buck tanks is to order your infantry to attack ground and voila! dead axis overpowered tank wrecks.

  • #24
    3 years ago
    whitesky00whitesky00 Posts: 407

    no, please don't turn riflemen zook blobs viable. shrek was "cancerous" because it penetrated vehicles from the front and at range. Zooks fit the purpose much better with... short range and penetration via flanking. It should not be a viable strategy to just blob riflemen and destroy a vehicle frontally. Do not ever buff zooks. If anything, shreks should have imitated zook weapon profile.

  • #26
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited June 2016

    @comrade_daelin damn.

    ive missed your posts.

    they always make me happy.

  • #27
    3 years ago
    HuntsmanHuntsman Malton North YorkshirePosts: 72

    @marcjs said:
    By saying their nazi units you are imply that the people using them in this case PLAYERS are nazis and that shouldnt be acceptable (not to mention relic activity doesnt want history in this game)

    i said the ostwind is a joke not the panzerwerfer its issue is t4 as you mentioned

    theirs no reason for your situation to happen since riflemen can just walk towards the axis with no issue hell now the mg42 is more broken now that its job to fight riflemen is mute thanks to a t0 mortar ....

    (plus your Lmgs dont need to be stopped to use unlike the Wher ones ((though obers can also do that and brens ...))

    It's a world war 2 game you need Nazis in it in some form or other. hell the waffen ss appear as stormtroopers.
    Also your accusation is pretty wild in no way did he imply in the slightest that players were Nazi. P.S. don't Play HOI4

    Back on topic I would suggest conscripts getting a pair of svt 40 at rank 3 kind of like the no4t snipers infantry sections get maybe add in an ability to use f 1 hand grenades

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