Heavy Tanks and OBK

#1
3 years ago

In my last match I saw that OBK can make 2 heavy tanks per game, the OBK guy was using the SturmTiger and King Tiger... so my question is... why OBK its able to make 2 kind of heavy tanks per game? Why other factions can't do that? I think there is something that should be nerfed or changed to make this game more balanced... something like giving the opportunity for all factions to use 2 heavy tanks

What do you think guys?

Comments

  • #2
    3 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    edited July 2016
    No. The heavy limit was put in place for a reason and it works much better that way.
    The reason the OKW can field both a KT and a ST, (something I routinely do if the chance presents itself) is because while the ST IS a heavy, it's not really in a position to be used as the "sole" heavy call-in like the other heavies. It simply has too many drawbacks for that. Fielding a ST alongside another heavy like the KT is quite fine and dandy due to reasons such as extreme costs, timing, unit weaknesses and overall power/cost ratio.
  • #3
    3 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798

    If this was a 1v1 and you let your opponent get enough fuel for the KT and the Sturmtiger, the fault is on you. Plus the OKW player would suffer from massive pop cap problems with those 2 units simultaneously on the field. You must punish your opponent's lack of supporting units.

  • #4
    3 years ago
    ElSlayerElSlayer Posts: 230

    Oh, come on. If you let them to roll out both KT and ST you probably lost already anyway It.

  • #5
    3 years ago
    CriomancerCriomancer Posts: 33

    @1ncendiary_Rounds dijo:
    If this was a 1v1 and you let your opponent get enough fuel for the KT and the Sturmtiger, the fault is on you.

    It was on 4v4, I don't play 1v1 because it's boring for me :(

  • #6
    3 years ago
    comrade_daelincomrade_d… Posts: 2,948

    The lion's share of Relic's budget, time and effort is focused on 1v1, namely the competitive scene*. And given the way the game is designed, this naturally leads to things like 4v4 being second-class citizenship in terms of priority.

    *Well maybe second only by making DLC and downsizing for DoW3.

  • #7
    3 years ago
    PedroPedro Posts: 63

    Dude - How is ST a Heavy tank for you? I mean c'mon it's rather short distance artillery on wheels. U can't fight off other tanks with it, unless they are standing still for like 30 s in one place all together in one place. Also for ST u have to pick rather "meh" commander.

  • #8
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495

    @Pedro said:
    Dude - How is ST a Heavy tank for you? I mean c'mon it's rather short distance artillery on wheels. U can't fight off other tanks with it, unless they are standing still for like 30 s in one place all together in one place. Also for ST u have to pick rather "meh" commander.

    the term heavy tank comes from its armor, speed, hp etc, not really much else.

    the sturmtiger is a heavy tank due to these things, nothing else. its just a term, it doesnt say anything about its ability to combat vehicles. and ofc you can fight off other tanks with it, you can literally pop their heads right off with one rocket. hell it one shots pershings.

    no its not a dedicated tank destroyer or anything remotely over there, it just fires a big nasty rocket. but regardless, its still a heavy tank.

  • #9
    3 years ago

    KV-2 & KV-8...

  • #11
    3 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495

    @comrade_daelin when i read your comments i read them inside my head, with the voice of Martellus, the blood ravens techmarine from Dawn of war 2 campaign.

    that and you are right.

  • #12
    3 years ago
    comrade_daelincomrade_d… Posts: 2,948

    lol i hate that guy, the voice actor does like 5 other people in that game, most of them other Blood Ravens.

  • #13
    3 years ago
    CriomancerCriomancer Posts: 33

    @comrade_daelin dijo:
    The game classifies certain vehicles under the heavy tank category: the most obvious sign is that it uses Heavy skins and not light or medium. Aside from that, these vehicles can consist of any combination of stats; they are not restricted to having certain types of characteristics- though that is precisely how they end up, that is the result, not the rule
    .
    In this case the Sturmtiger, like the KV tanks, are all heavy tanks. Whether they are GOOD heavy tanks is an entirely different matter; a Tiger that is severely nerfed is still a heavy tank, even if it's rendered useless.

    So to answer the OP: they can build both because one is a very specialized vehicle locked behind one commander, and one is a generalist battle tank that is not doctrinal. This is also not universal: unlike Sturmtiger, the Jagdtiger tank from Breakthrough Doctrine cannot be deployed if you deploy the King Tiger first.

    In short, 2 heavy tanks an overpowered faction does not make. I've defeated UKF opponents using multiple Churchills before, and even longer people using KV-8s with IS-2. The nature and design of the heavy tank matters, far more than if it's called a heavy tank.

    Oh, thanks for the answer! :D But my other question is... why other factions aren't able to call a generalist battle tank that is not doctrinal? I think that thing it's just a bit broken or at least giving the opportunity for the last tier of all-allied faction to create some tank that is doctrinal like KV-1 for soviets or the same as OBK, let them call the "most powerful" heavy tank of the faction (just 1 obviously), for example... and make changes to that doctrine that give you the tank replacing the "empty slot"... just an idea , what do u think?

  • #14
    3 years ago
    VegnaVegna Posts: 961

    @Criomancer said:
    Oh, thanks for the answer! :D But my other question is... why other factions aren't able to call a generalist battle tank that is not doctrinal? I think that thing it's just a bit broken or at least giving the opportunity for the last tier of all-allied faction to create some tank that is doctrinal like KV-1 for soviets or the same as OBK, let them call the "most powerful" heavy tank of the faction (just 1 obviously), for example... and make changes to that doctrine that give you the tank replacing the "empty slot"... just an idea , what do u think?

    Because the factions are not the same.

  • #15
    3 years ago
    comrade_daelincomrade_d… Posts: 2,948

    @Criomancer said:

    why other factions aren't able to call a generalist battle tank that is not doctrinal? I think that thing it's just a bit broken or at least giving the opportunity for the last tier of all-allied faction to create some tank that is doctrinal like KV-1 for soviets or the same as OBK, let them call the "most powerful" heavy tank of the faction (just 1 obviously), for example... and make changes to that doctrine that give you the tank replacing the "empty slot"... just an idea , what do u think?

    If by call in you mean deploy from off-map without needing to build it, I cannot answer that question. There was a time where you had to build the King Tiger at your HQ building just like any other vehicle, and IMO it worked, but for some reason people wanted it to come immediately and bypass all the typical strategic and tactical drawbacks that building a vehicle takes. IMO it didn't seem to solve a particularly problem and just makes getting the KT a very convoluted method.

    The game also once upon a time was able to call in unlimited heavy tanks of any type, naturally restricted to the popcap and resources you can afford. I've hardly ever come across a scenario where that was the most practical method to play the game, but apparently everyone else seems to think it was more common than people eating cereal for breakfast. They took that out due to complaints and player feedback.

    Overall the answer is faction design: OKW is meant to have a heavy non-doctrinal call-in tank. Again, doctrinal units will vary in availability: you can call in Sturmtiger alongside the KT, but not Jadgtiger.

    As for copying this to other factions, I do not think it is a good idea. The only rule Relic really follows is that factions are balanced according to how it all works out, not a general rule that every faction must follow. But in this case, British heavy tanks follow a similar rule: regular Churchills are not limited to one tank at a time, but calling in a Crocodile or AVRE variant is.
    What needs to be looked at and considered carefully is not some abstract rule like "all doctrinals must be limited to one, no exceptions", but rather "does this result in unbalanced gameplay?" It is not like Sturmtiger can replace a King Tiger if the latter is destroyed, or the KV-8 can carry the team once the player lost his/her IS-2. A and B being heavy tanks doesn't mean A=B

  • #16
    3 years ago
    CriomancerCriomancer Posts: 33

    @comrade_daelin dijo:

    @Criomancer said:

    why other factions aren't able to call a generalist battle tank that is not doctrinal? I think that thing it's just a bit broken or at least giving the opportunity for the last tier of all-allied faction to create some tank that is doctrinal like KV-1 for soviets or the same as OBK, let them call the "most powerful" heavy tank of the faction (just 1 obviously), for example... and make changes to that doctrine that give you the tank replacing the "empty slot"... just an idea , what do u think?

    If by call in you mean deploy from off-map without needing to build it, I cannot answer that question. There was a time where you had to build the King Tiger at your HQ building just like any other vehicle, and IMO it worked, but for some reason people wanted it to come immediately and bypass all the typical strategic and tactical drawbacks that building a vehicle takes. IMO it didn't seem to solve a particularly problem and just makes getting the KT a very convoluted method.

    The game also once upon a time was able to call in unlimited heavy tanks of any type, naturally restricted to the popcap and resources you can afford. I've hardly ever come across a scenario where that was the most practical method to play the game, but apparently everyone else seems to think it was more common than people eating cereal for breakfast. They took that out due to complaints and player feedback.

    Overall the answer is faction design: OKW is meant to have a heavy non-doctrinal call-in tank. Again, doctrinal units will vary in availability: you can call in Sturmtiger alongside the KT, but not Jadgtiger.

    As for copying this to other factions, I do not think it is a good idea. The only rule Relic really follows is that factions are balanced according to how it all works out, not a general rule that every faction must follow. But in this case, British heavy tanks follow a similar rule: regular Churchills are not limited to one tank at a time, but calling in a Crocodile or AVRE variant is.
    What needs to be looked at and considered carefully is not some abstract rule like "all doctrinals must be limited to one, no exceptions", but rather "does this result in unbalanced gameplay?" It is not like Sturmtiger can replace a King Tiger if the latter is destroyed, or the KV-8 can carry the team once the player lost his/her IS-2. A and B being heavy tanks doesn't mean A=B

    Thanks again for your answer :) I'm really happy for this kind of people that give you good answers regardless what kind of things do you like of the game or which faction do you prefer. Thats all my questions for now!

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