[Ostheer] [ALL] Grenadiers too squishy.

#1
4 years ago

Grenadiers seem to get instagibbed quite often. While they CAN be good at range and with LMG (and must remain stationary) they just seem to be outclassed and die like flies. Really their survival rate is just atrocious. I never have to babysit infantry units like I do Grenadiers. Because down to three they have your attention, two is instant retreat, and one...well they're basically dead. (Usually.)

Panzergrenadiers seem to be a lot tougher, even with the higher cost but don't die as often and scale better. Infantry sections, Riflemen, and now Penals beat them down pretty hard and almost every encounter for several reasons.

  1. Infantry sections increased fire in cover (plus five man squads) AND Bren MG.
  2. Riflemen in virtually every category are superior.
  3. Penals have SVTs and can just charge at Grenadiers in cover (quite often with flamethrowers OR fight them from a distance.)

Toss in the fact of how often scout cars can chase down Grenadier squads quite early because they are symbiotic in use with flame engineers/scout car. Really Tier 1 is almost pointless against Soviets because you're needing a Scout Car to deal with Stuarts/Scout Cars/(Random cheesy early Allied unit) because it's all you have. Tier 1 is just pretty bad against Soviets in general. There are too many Russians for snipers to be effective, mortars are a liability with scout cars running around and Grenadiers die faster than Sean Bean.

That's a little off-topic but Grenadiers are kind of like Sean Bean. You know their fate before they even meet it. Virtually walking spoilers.

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Comments

  • #2
    4 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited September 2016

    What can be said about Ost 4man squads has already been said, it's time for Relic to fix the squad spacing. I'd have to disagree with you about t1 vs Sov. Since cons and grens are evenly matched, t1 is fine vs Sov. If your opponent goes for penals, stop all production of t1 units and roll over him with a pair of 222s. Follow up with pgrens. Ostheer has no problems with penals. Many penal lovers usually have bulletins for it, so if I see a bulletin, I'll skip t1 and get 222s and pgrens and with mg support, they will sht on penal, scout cars, and snipers. That is why penals arent that popular vs ost. OKW on the other hand has a longer time until they can get a luchs. 222s force, either guards or shreck partisans and if they get partisans, congrats because you just forced them into a sht doctrine(s). So just spam pgrens which hard counter both types of partisans and in the case of Sov Reserve army doctrine, pgrens will beat ppsh cons. Just engage at range and when the cons close in, they'll have already dropped 2 men and unable to compete against 4 mp44s.

  • #3
    4 years ago

    Indeed, Ost's 4 Squads are done to the death, and there were many suggestions how to fix them so there is no point really to reitarate that... Relic would need to fix them somehow, along with Tier 4.

    If not for those many, many balance threads OST Grens and Tier 4 That I see many people nowadays simply completely skip Tier 1, that is supposed to the bread and butter of OST's roster and go straight for Tier 2 with FTH, 222 and Pgrens and forget about Tier 4 most of the time should make Relic pause and think a bit that something, somewhere went dreadfully wrong with the Ostheer.

    As it is now, the only usable OST building are Tier 2 and 3.

  • #4
    4 years ago
    ImperialDaneImperialD… Posts: 3,197 mod

    Well i've stopped relying on them. They're just no good. Not vs riflemen, conscripts or infantry sections. They hit the field too slow, don't do enough, are too expensive and they scale terribly. Never mind they are wiped easily.

    Overall Wehrmacht needs an overhaul. Tier 1 just isn't viable. The Problem is the Grenadiers are supposed to fight the enemy at range. Which only works if you get there first. If the enemy is there first. Well, you're out of luck. And that is basically the problem. The grenadiers can't deal with an enemy in a decent position. And if they don't get to a point first, they are screwed. Which happens most of the time. Factor in the power creep and Grenadiers generally don't really work.

    You're paying reinforcements for a 300 manpower unit, yet playing a 240 manpower unit. The Panzerfaust is bugged and half the time doesn't go off and generally involves losing at least 1 member. There needs to be a big rethink.

    At this point it would make more sense to just basically go "alright, let's make them a 300 manpower unit" and then give them the stats that fit the bill then. That way hitting the field later would also make more sense that it currently does. It would also fit in more with the defensive faction play, fewer but stronger squads meaning you can't easily play agressively. But the defensive play then works better.

    So yeah. Just up the cost so it fits the reinforcement cost and buff the stats to make sense with it as well. Not rec. acc. That just leads to agressive play. But damage wise.

  • #5
    4 years ago

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    What can be said about Ost 4man squads has already been said, it's time for Relic to fix the squad spacing. I'd have to disagree with you about t1 vs Sov. Since cons and grens are evenly matched, t1 is fine vs Sov. If your opponent goes for penals, stop all production of t1 units and roll over him with a pair of 222s. Follow up with pgrens. Ostheer has no problems with penals. Many penal lovers usually have bulletins for it, so if I see a bulletin, I'll skip t1 and get 222s and pgrens and with mg support, they will sht on penal, scout cars, and snipers. That is why penals arent that popular vs ost. OKW on the other hand has a longer time until they can get a luchs. 222s force, either guards or shreck partisans and if they get partisans, congrats because you just forced them into a sht doctrine(s). So just spam pgrens which hard counter both types of partisans and in the case of Sov Reserve army doctrine, pgrens will beat ppsh cons. Just engage at range and when the cons close in, they'll have already dropped 2 men and unable to compete against 4 mp44s.

    That is partially true. Grens can fight conscripts...but that is it. They suck against everything else. Against 6 SVTs or 5 M1s, or the much higher fire rate of sections in cover I fail to see how they can beat any of them. Also it's not a big deal for Soviets to switch to Tier 2. The Penals/Guard combo is very common and skipping conscripts altogether. Dead penals are easy to replace and usually they sneak out some T-70's to combo with their Guards to deal with your Panzergrenadiers and Scout Cars.

  • #6
    4 years ago
    omar_empomar_emp United Arab EmiratesPosts: 533
    edited September 2016

    @ExtraNapkins said:
    Grenadiers seem to get instagibbed quite often. While they CAN be good at range and with LMG (and must remain stationary) they just seem to be outclassed and die like flies. Really their survival rate is just atrocious. I never have to babysit infantry units like I do Grenadiers. Because down to three they have your attention, two is instant retreat, and one...well they're basically dead. (Usually.)

    Panzergrenadiers seem to be a lot tougher, even with the higher cost but don't die as often and scale better. Infantry sections, Riflemen, and now Penals beat them down pretty hard and almost every encounter for several reasons.

    1. Infantry sections increased fire in cover (plus five man squads) AND Bren MG.
    2. Riflemen in virtually every category are superior.
    3. Penals have SVTs and can just charge at Grenadiers in cover (quite often with flamethrowers OR fight them from a distance.)

    Toss in the fact of how often scout cars can chase down Grenadier squads quite early because they are symbiotic in use with flame engineers/scout car. Really Tier 1 is almost pointless against Soviets because you're needing a Scout Car to deal with Stuarts/Scout Cars/(Random cheesy early Allied unit) because it's all you have. Tier 1 is just pretty bad against Soviets in general. There are too many Russians for snipers to be effective, mortars are a liability with scout cars running around and Grenadiers die faster than Sean Bean.

    That's a little off-topic but Grenadiers are kind of like Sean Bean. You know their fate before they even meet it. Virtually walking spoilers.

    there received accuracy at LVL3 is less than riflemen which got better survival at lvl 3 than riflemen

    and just 1x MG42 is enough to make them over perform that a riflemen with 1xM1919A6 which costs 10 more ammo

  • #7
    4 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    They're way better than conscripts any day of the week, and way cheaper than RM or IS, they seem fine. That said, my suggestion is to improve bunkers or give them trenches stock, that'd fit with their theme and wouldn't wreck balance like a 5th man.

  • #8
    4 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    @MCMartel

    They are not fine.
    They are on par with conscripts and woefully inadquate against every other mainline infantry squad.
    Yes, they are cheaper than both the IS and the RM, but that's because both of them dosent melt away to enemy fire, like an icecream in the desert.

    I'm all with Dane on this one.
    Make them worth getting in the first place. Buff their damage or vet bonusses or upgrades or whatever. Increase their cost to 300mp, hell make it 325 for all I care, just make them not suck balls anymore.
  • #9
    4 years ago

    I am fine with buffing grens with a 5th man and whatnot. I just think cons should have a REDUCED grenade price then. Like molotov and AT grenade put into 1 upgrade.

  • #10
    4 years ago

    more like weapons upgrade as well because they will get left behind so hard by grens.

  • #11
    4 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 2,006
    edited September 2016
    Why should conscripts get anything if Grens are buffed and made more expensive? 300 MP Grens don't warrant any kind of buff for Conscripts. You have Penals or Maxims. Use those, and Conscripts in a support role. You have the luxury of choice. The Grenadiers buff is necessary because Wehr doesn't have that. They have Grens or skip T1.
  • #12
    4 years ago
    @PensilBatRation There is no reason to nerf the RA. All the RA (at least for riflemen is late game. Early game there target size is basically the same (in some cases worse then axis infantry).

    Nerfing it late game doesn't fix any of the problems at hand. Grens are losing out of the gate.

    All nerfing RA would do is hurt the late game match ups, which honestly don't need changes (it's why the RA got changed in the first place).

    Triple vet RMs don't hold a candle vetted obers (as well as some of the doctrinal OKW inf). There is no reason to make that match up even more one sided.

    Grens need to be buffed so they actually perform from the beginning and Pgrens need to be a viable aggressive inf choice for late game.
  • #15
    4 years ago
    HuntsmanHuntsman Malton North YorkshirePosts: 72

    add another mg42 as an upgrade and add the option to upgrade with PZB39 anti tank rifles.

  • #16
    4 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    @Huntsman

    Id rather they added back some sort of lmg42/g43 combo then. Lmg42's can only be fired while stationary, the g43's on the move. Would give them a bit more versatility. Increase cost to compensate obviously.
  • #17
    4 years ago
    Lmg + g43 isnt going to make grens anymore durable. It will make penals a must (which, whatever its a doctrinal choice, it shiukd effect build order) it will make pgrens less attractive but most importantly instead of having 1 upgrade evaporate to a single mortar shell, you will have 2...
  • #18
    4 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 2,006
    Goddammit armadillo you beat me to it. Was about to say the same. Not to mention that even with G43s and lmgs they'd get stomped by Rifles
  • #19
    4 years ago

    @Hingie said:
    Why should conscripts get anything if Grens are buffed and made more expensive? 300 MP Grens don't warrant any kind of buff for Conscripts. You have Penals or Maxims. Use those, and Conscripts in a support role. You have the luxury of choice. The Grenadiers buff is necessary because Wehr doesn't have that. They have Grens or skip T1.

    LOL! Your argument of choice is the same. Build OST T1 or go to T2. Soviets either go T1 or not go T1. The conscript match up with grens have generally always resulted in conscript losing. With a buffed and expensive grenadier squad, it will be the mainline utility for all scenarios. It has free grenade upgrade, free AT snare upgrade and no resource upgrade to get lmg42. The now weaker conscripts has to throw in all these extra resources just to get any utility out of them and they barely kill more than 2-3 models for the first 10 minutes of the game. 300 MP grens is like stronger and better 280 MP IS because even IS has to spend fuel to get it's 5th man and they don't get grenades or access to snares with teching up.

  • #20
    4 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 2,006

    @whitesky00 said:

    LOL! Your argument of choice is the same. Build OST T1 or go to T2. Soviets either go T1 or not go T1. The conscript match up with grens have generally always resulted in conscript losing. With a buffed and expensive grenadier squad, it will be the mainline utility for all scenarios. It has free grenade upgrade, free AT snare upgrade and no resource upgrade to get lmg42. The now weaker conscripts has to throw in all these extra resources just to get any utility out of them and they barely kill more than 2-3 models for the first 10 minutes of the game. 300 MP grens is like stronger and better 280 MP IS because even IS has to spend fuel to get it's 5th man and they don't get grenades or access to snares with teching up.

    What you fail to see is that, other than Soviets, Wehr tech is linear. Skipping T1 leads to you having only Pios and MGs for a certain time because Wehr has to tech up first. Its not like the can build T2 at the start of the game. Soviets can chose between either starting tier.

    A buffed and more expensive Grenadier squad will indeed have more presence on the field as they do now, because currently Grenadiers are crap. The only squad they can beat by themselves alone are Conscripts. The grenade upgrade isnt free. Its paid in tech costs, which are overall more expensive than Soviet ones if you had bothered to look them up before writing. Especially in terms of MP Wehr tech is more expensive. Yeah, Grens dont pay to get lMGs, but thats because unlike Weapon racks they cant provide lMGs for every squad they please. They buy it for themselves and if they wish to get another weapon they have to hope someone drops something.

    Soviets get the best doctrinal infantry in the game. If you dont want to spend ressources on Molotovs or AT-Grenades, get Guards. Penals can do anti-garrisson duty. Or get a mortar. You dont have to buy both upgrades all the time, you know. Even without them, instant sqaud replenishment on the front is a pretty good ability they get for free.

    Well, so what? Are the IS some kind of apex of basic infantry no one is supposed to surpass?

    That aside, the alternativ would be to nerf all allied infantry. Especially Rifles. That is an alternative I would actually prefer, but it would not change much as far as the problem of Grenadier survivability is concerned.

  • #21
    4 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    I wasent saying that that would be the be-all-end-all buff to the grens.
    I was merely stating that if a weapons upgrade for them is the best that Relic comes up with(and knowing them, that's not a far fetched proposition by any means!)(Hey, your starting squad and main staying power sucks balls. Here's some more weapons, so you can pick up the mantle of human pinjata's from the Guards), then I'd rather have it be a cross upgrade between lmg's and g43's, than two straight lmg's.
  • #22
    4 years ago

    @Baálthazor said:
    I wasent saying that that would be the be-all-end-all buff to the grens.
    I was merely stating that if a weapons upgrade for them is the best that Relic comes up with(and knowing them, that's not a far fetched proposition by any means!)(Hey, your starting squad and main staying power sucks balls. Here's some more weapons, so you can pick up the mantle of human pinjata's from the Guards), then I'd rather have it be a cross upgrade between lmg's and g43's, than two straight lmg's.

    ok fair point, but we still run into the issue of making cans useless and grens no better
    rifles will still pretend cover doent matter and their "balanced" mortar will will be right behind them ready to wipe

  • #23
    4 years ago
    @PensilBatRation Well considering the recent meta swap for OST I'd assume it is, plus OST isn't even leading anymore.

    Players are literally not buying them and they are doing better because of it. That seems like a good reason.

    Riflemen are not broken. They really aren't. Changing the RA would not do anything. Early game RM have only .97 target size. It isn't the reason grens are losing.

    The issue isnt the late game performance of RM. It's the preformance of OST infantry at all stages of the game.

    Grens are losing because they fucking suck. They scale worse than every infantry squad in the game, they don't out DPS anyone, they have an abismal health pool and a absurd reinforce cost. Nothing decent about that.
  • #24
    4 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092

    Grens are losing because they fucking suck. They scale worse than every infantry squad in the game, they don't out DPS anyone, they have an abismal health pool and a absurd reinforce cost. Nothing decent about that.

    Goddamn it, yes.!!
    +1 and upvoted!

  • #25
    4 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited September 2016

    @Hingie said:
    Why should conscripts get anything if Grens are buffed and made more expensive? 300 MP Grens don't warrant any kind of buff for Conscripts. You have Penals or Maxims. Use those, and Conscripts in a support role. You have the luxury of choice. The Grenadiers buff is necessary because Wehr doesn't have that. They have Grens or skip T1.

    and you have panzergrens and MG42s. panzer grens for close combat, normal grens for long range.

    soviets have penals for medium range and... thats it. conscripts have a prefered range, but doesnt excel at anything in particular.

    once you leave early game, conscripts wont win any battles and its already getting difficult enough to deal with volksgrenadiers now they got stg upgrades. conscripts are getting shredded, so if the normal grenadiers gets buffed as well to a 5 man model or entirely revamped, by all means, lets go through both starter factions and revamp the conscripts too.

  • #26
    4 years ago
    What about making them need to unlock their stuff in a "logistics" side grade to allow them to be buffed
    Atm they are 240MP but no additional costs (aside from muni) to reach their full potential, meaning while bar rifles are strong as hell, there is a small fuel investment in them, if they want to throw a grenade thats another... Same goes with tommies, side grades ONTOP of being a more expensive squad to boot. You get grens full potential for 240 MP and naturally progressing through the game. Even at 280MP grens wouldnt be able to rightfully beat tommies and rifles if only because of that (this is a reason I think cons could drop to 220-230mp)
  • #27
    4 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    Sure. Give them a side grade somewhere in the HQ for MGs/Grenades and one for Fausts. Give the Grens a buff + bring their reinforcement cost in line with their actual unit cost/performance.

    Then we'll see what happens.

  • #28
    4 years ago

    Conscripts being buffed is basically irrelevant because they are support units while Penals/Maxims/Shocks/Guards do the real damage. I mean honestly, mass conscripts rarely works because they're designed to synergize other units. I mean it's not like Soviets need more anti infantry power than what they already have, even if it includes conscripts.

    They are really decent in cover and I'm not sure why people bash them so much. Maybe if they learned to use them properly they could actually show their battlefield potential...

  • #29
    4 years ago

    Decrease the reinforcement cost and adjust the Grenadier Vet to give them more accuracy with their weapons, perhaps.

    @ExtraNapkins said:
    while Penals/Maxims/Shocks/Guards do the real damage

    Maxims do the REAL damage?

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