[OKW] [ALL] MG34 should be available from the start.

#1
2 years ago

USF has access immediately to grenades and smoke, NOW they have immediate access to mortars, Soviets have immediately two units that can equip flamethrowers AND immediate access to MGs and mortars, Brits can make MGs right out the gate...why can't OKW access their MG early?

OKW support is the absolute worst and they are just awful at suppressing units and denial of territory. In fact I would argue that they are the worst in the game when it comes to defensive capabilities and support units. The logic behind accessing this sorry excuse of an MG earlier on are the following...

  1. The ISG is just crap. It never kills anything, doesn't retreat and if it is spotted it is instantly killed. It has a horrible habit of (maybe) injuring units but never inflicting casualties. On top of that it doesn't suppress units anymore, and the only way to get kills is if an enemy unit catches a lucky shot in the FACE. I've had one parked and barraging targets all game and MAYBE getting 15-20 kills while US mortars (especially 120mm mortar) insta-gib Sturmpio units immediately. Whereas if you spot an enemy mortar with Volksgrenadiers you will rarely kill them and incendiary grenades aren't that effective against them.
  2. The MG34 itself has piss poor performance. It is indisputably the WORST MG in the game. I don't care if it only costs 230 MP. I'd rather wait another 5 seconds for income and pay the 280 for something like the Vickers. Having the "ability" to vet 5 doesn't matter because they never survive that long.
  3. By the time the MG34 comes out, there are support teams everywhere already laying down indirect fire. There will be mortars regardless if you are facing Soviets/UK/US.
  4. The flaktrack is a piece of shit. (See the thread.)
  5. You have Volksgrenadiers desperately trying to hold important areas which are inferior in every way to every frontline unit at that point in the game.
  6. Sturmpioneers are not economical frontline "holding" units.
  7. Your good light vehicle support units (which are still inferior to Allied light vehicles) come at a cost of not having medics early on.
  8. You have to burn 40 FU to get medics in a largely useless Tier 1. No other faction outside of US (at a cost of 10 FU AND can move and reinforce) have this sort of FU cost early in the game to merely heal their units. (Oooh, a spotting half track that spots things so your ISG can never kill anything. Stukas are largely overrated because you are really hurting to get armor out on the field by that point usually.)
  9. Kubels lost their ability to suppress or slow down enemy infantry.
  10. You are stuck with Volksgrenadiers for quite a while because Obersoldaten are very specialized and come out very late in the game. By that time you are facing Vet 3 Sections with Brens and Vet 3 Riflemen with LMGs usually, so once again a very large window for Allies to roll your Volksgrenadiers.

So quite often you are charging to take back territories with worse units...against better infantry...with better support...with better defensive capabilities...and better light vehicles. I feel that having MG34 would ease the burden of Volksgrenadiers early on in their anti-infantry role instead of them being rolled over by enemy infantry and would help them hold it.

Sturmpioneers are great flankers but that's it. 9 pop 4 man squads that early on are really situational. I feel that it would help OKW diversify their openings and make opposing teams actually think before attacking OKW positions early on. Right now they are fearless for the first few minutes and even then not a bad deal to even attack Volksgrenadiers (even in cover).

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Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    The ISG is the worst. The problem was it's damage and other traits were nerfed when relic was in denial that mortars with supression were what were killing the game, but they never reverted those misguided nerfs.

  • #3
    2 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    @MCMartel

    I'm not sure I follow your train of thought here :|

    The guy was talking about the MG34. How does the LeIg fit into the equation?
  • #4
    2 years ago

    @Baálthazor said:
    @MCMartel

    I'm not sure I follow your train of thought here :|

    The guy was talking about the MG34. How does the LeIg fit into the equation?

    Well they are both just dogshit wrapped in catshit in terms of performance. However they do fit in the common theme of awful OKW support weapons.

  • #5
    2 years ago

    Delayed MG 34 just doesn't make any sense. I am struggling to find a reason why it was delayed in the first place, whereas OST, SOV, UKF basically gets and MG instantly, and while the USF theoretically needs to tech for it, but it never gets built since OST already supplies the USF with free MG 42s anyway.

  • #6
    2 years ago

    @ExtraNapkins said:
    Soviets have immediately two units that can equip flamethrowers AND immediate access to MGs and mortars

    I don't think you know what "immediate" means.

    The MG34 could come out immediately when it was doctrinal iirc. I never saw that as very problematic then, I don't have any reason to believe it would be now. It would probably work well, at least concerning the timing.

  • #7
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,984

    Regardless of the MGs timing, its performance is somewhere around the Mariana trench so I see no reason why it should at least be available quickly, if its already not potent.

  • #8
    2 years ago
    omar_empomar_emp United Arab EmiratesPosts: 526

    @ExtraNapkins said:
    USF has access immediately to grenades and smoke, NOW they have immediate access to mortars, Soviets have immediately two units that can equip flamethrowers AND immediate access to MGs and mortars, Brits can make MGs right out the gate...why can't OKW access their MG early?

    OKW support is the absolute worst and they are just awful at suppressing units and denial of territory. In fact I would argue that they are the worst in the game when it comes to defensive capabilities and support units. The logic behind accessing this sorry excuse of an MG earlier on are the following...

    1. The ISG is just crap. It never kills anything, doesn't retreat and if it is spotted it is instantly killed. It has a horrible habit of (maybe) injuring units but never inflicting casualties. On top of that it doesn't suppress units anymore, and the only way to get kills is if an enemy unit catches a lucky shot in the FACE. I've had one parked and barraging targets all game and MAYBE getting 15-20 kills while US mortars (especially 120mm mortar) insta-gib Sturmpio units immediately. Whereas if you spot an enemy mortar with Volksgrenadiers you will rarely kill them and incendiary grenades aren't that effective against them.
    2. The MG34 itself has piss poor performance. It is indisputably the WORST MG in the game. I don't care if it only costs 230 MP. I'd rather wait another 5 seconds for income and pay the 280 for something like the Vickers. Having the "ability" to vet 5 doesn't matter because they never survive that long.
    3. By the time the MG34 comes out, there are support teams everywhere already laying down indirect fire. There will be mortars regardless if you are facing Soviets/UK/US.
    4. The flaktrack is a piece of shit. (See the thread.)
    5. You have Volksgrenadiers desperately trying to hold important areas which are inferior in every way to every frontline unit at that point in the game.
    6. Sturmpioneers are not economical frontline "holding" units.
    7. Your good light vehicle support units (which are still inferior to Allied light vehicles) come at a cost of not having medics early on.
    8. You have to burn 40 FU to get medics in a largely useless Tier 1. No other faction outside of US (at a cost of 10 FU AND can move and reinforce) have this sort of FU cost early in the game to merely heal their units. (Oooh, a spotting half track that spots things so your ISG can never kill anything. Stukas are largely overrated because you are really hurting to get armor out on the field by that point usually.)
    9. Kubels lost their ability to suppress or slow down enemy infantry.
    10. You are stuck with Volksgrenadiers for quite a while because Obersoldaten are very specialized and come out very late in the game. By that time you are facing Vet 3 Sections with Brens and Vet 3 Riflemen with LMGs usually, so once again a very large window for Allies to roll your Volksgrenadiers.

    So quite often you are charging to take back territories with worse units...against better infantry...with better support...with better defensive capabilities...and better light vehicles. I feel that having MG34 would ease the burden of Volksgrenadiers early on in their anti-infantry role instead of them being rolled over by enemy infantry and would help them hold it.

    Sturmpioneers are great flankers but that's it. 9 pop 4 man squads that early on are really situational. I feel that it would help OKW diversify their openings and make opposing teams actually think before attacking OKW positions early on. Right now they are fearless for the first few minutes and even then not a bad deal to even attack Volksgrenadiers (even in cover).

    MG34 spam is enough to see with low upkeep and good accuracy and low price even and its first ability its really OP , and UK dont have mortars except you going forts

  • #9
    2 years ago
    I wouldn't be opposed to giving it somewhere around weaker Vickers stats (minus garrison vet bonus)atm its supression is crap and its DPs is crap, meaning even at its price....its crap. I understand that the okw are supposed to be aggressive so something like an mg42 wouldnt fly but it needs to either inflict casualties or hold up advances or be mobile.

    Is it possible to buff it when in enemy territory to kinda push for aggression?
  • #10
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,984
    edited September 2016

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    I wouldn't be opposed to giving it somewhere around weaker Vickers stats (minus garrison vet bonus)atm its supression is crap and its DPs is crap, meaning even at its price....its crap. I understand that the okw are supposed to be aggressive so something like an mg42 wouldnt fly but it needs to either inflict casualties or hold up advances or be mobile.

    Is it possible to buff it when in enemy territory to kinda push for aggression?

    How about introducing some sort of toggle. Once set up, the MG gets the ability to move around without having to tear down, at the cost of reduced movement speed and perhaps rotation. Also, while moving it cant fire, but once stationary it can start to rain bullets right away. In this mode, it also doesnt supress but deals greatly enhanced damage.

    Sort of like this:

    This way youd have one mode for aggressive support and another for... well... whatever the MG 34 is supposed to be good at currently.

    This way the MG 34 would be some sort of weapon team version of the Obers lmg 34, similar how the Püppchen is (kind of) a weapon team version of the Panzerschreck.

  • #11
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017

    Sure, I'm a fan of that. Encourages aggressive play with the MG without making it a Maxim.

    Only thing to be wary of is Relic making another garrison/stacking buff issue. Relic if you're thinking about that for the love of god don't make the DPS buff something that stacks when entering/exiting buildings. I don't want OKW to become the next USF.

  • #12
    2 years ago

    @Yoghurt said:

    @ExtraNapkins said:
    Soviets have immediately two units that can equip flamethrowers AND immediate access to MGs and mortars

    I don't think you know what "immediate" means.

    The MG34 could come out immediately when it was doctrinal iirc. I never saw that as very problematic then, I don't have any reason to believe it would be now. It would probably work well, at least concerning the timing.

    Because Soviets can make Tier 2 within the first 5 seconds of the game? Also how hard is it to save up 60 munitions?

  • #13
    2 years ago
    hsk9146hsk9146 Posts: 153
    edited September 2016
    I think mg34 is fine... it probably has more accuracy than mg42 and tbh i havent really felt the difference from this mg to any other that makes it so supposedly shitty.

    One thing that i feel with okw is that many times i feel like the need to push real desperately. One thing we could do is to reduce the set up time of the mg and put it in between like maxim and mg42 to make it a better option aggressively. Maybe also tweak arc and dps accordingly. I think that okw does need a aggressive option in their line up and i think that this could be a great idea
  • #14
    2 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    @hsk9146
    The mg34 is a piece of crap! It can't suppress, it can't kill, it can't pin, it can't survive, it can't dance the freaking Macarena. :s

    All the other mg's in the game can do either one or more of these things, and each have their own niche.
    Apparently the mg34's niche is being a luke-warm incentive for your opponent to respect one's personal property...
  • #15
    2 years ago

    @Hingie said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    I wouldn't be opposed to giving it somewhere around weaker Vickers stats (minus garrison vet bonus)atm its supression is crap and its DPs is crap, meaning even at its price....its crap. I understand that the okw are supposed to be aggressive so something like an mg42 wouldnt fly but it needs to either inflict casualties or hold up advances or be mobile.

    Is it possible to buff it when in enemy territory to kinda push for aggression?

    How about introducing some sort of toggle. Once set up, the MG gets the ability to move around without having to tear down, at the cost of reduced movement speed and perhaps rotation. Also, while moving it cant fire, but once stationary it can start to rain bullets right away. In this mode, it also doesnt supress but deals greatly enhanced damage.

    Sort of like this:

    This way youd have one mode for aggressive support and another for... well... whatever the MG 34 is supposed to be good at currently.

    This way the MG 34 would be some sort of weapon team version of the Obers lmg 34, similar how the Püppchen is (kind of) a weapon team version of the Panzerschreck.

    something very much like that!
    when activated it could have like...kuble pathing to keep it from being the ol maxim-go-round

  • #16
    2 years ago
    hsk9146hsk9146 Posts: 153
    @baálthazor

    Just checked the stats and it does have really bad stats. In game i didnt really feel that much of a difference. Is it really that bad?

    I think that having the mg from the start might give the okw an advantage in their early game. Not sure if op or not, but might be worth the try yo figure it out. Might give some flexibility and variety in their opening too. Im pretty sure it might work and not be op. Thing is that the mg along spios might be a problem, they can sort of dominate the opening phase and give the okw a very big advantage and breathing room for their inf to desert an area with a lone mg and go around capping points and cutoffs. The dynamism of the okw early game might be lost and can turn into more static play.
  • #17
    2 years ago
    HuntsmanHuntsman Malton North YorkshirePosts: 72

    Make it an mg42 light with more focus on accuracy (the gun had the option to be fired semi auto) with ammunition lasting longer due to slower rate of fire

    The mg34 is of the best GPMG's ever made even today

  • #18
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited September 2016

    USF dont have access to immediate grenades and smoke.

    it requires a side upgrade.

    regardless i think the reason it isnt available to begin with is that they have access to a very aggressive early game with sturms, volks to hold the line and kubels.

    should they have access to em to begin with? i dunno. maybe. i mean they feel solid enough in 4v4 games early game.

    but its also not good enough to warrent a later arrival.

  • #19
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017

    @Beardedragon said:
    USF dont have access to immediate grenades and smoke.

    it requires a side upgrade.

    regardless i think the reason it isnt available to begin with is that they have access to a very aggressive early game with sturms, volks to hold the line and kubels.

    It's a sidegrade that has been made entirely redundant by the mortar, which performs both the roles grenades once did.

  • #20
    2 years ago
    Shoulda just given RE the ability to fire riflenades that do bonus damage vs garrisons instead of the super mortar..
    But as laz said, the nades are no longer necessary (which is funny because they WERE mandatory...
  • #21
    2 years ago
    hsk9146hsk9146 Posts: 153
    more accuracy? Wider suppression profile for better mass suppression? Slightly faster set up time for more aggressive use? I feel like it does do its job though... it fulfills what mgs are supposed to do though it suppesses inf... never had an instance where the mg didnt suppress.

    I think there are 2 options make it a "proper" mg and buff it somehow up to par and increase its price up to par, or keep the price and keep the mg or just slightly buff it to make it fit into the okw playstyle. Imo buffing accuracy or dmg will make it too good for combined arms, STGs and lmg34s and maybe even leigs (these things dont seem to actually kill but they soften the enemy troops for ur mainline inf to kill muuch more easily). I would say the most reasonable would be to either buff its dmg and nerf accuracy to make it a sort of aoe dmg thing. This way the enemy will still have models but low health ones. Or to buff their set up time so they can be used more aggressively. When i play okw, i feel the need to push very often and sometimes i want mg support for my pushes and faster set up time is good for a move pushes
  • #22
    2 years ago

    The frustration from oncoming Penal and Rifle blobs early on with no suppression is beyond frustrating. Volksgrenadiers suck and can't hold the line. Give OKW their shit MG early so they can actually hold territory. With the amount of flame units Soviet have, Grenades for USF, WASPs, there are no shortages of units to counter MGs even in buildings.

  • #23
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    The MG34 is fine, it's better than the terrible maxim the soviets get, cause it's cheap as heck and has a half-decent firing cone. Volks are definitely not sucky, they're very good basic infantry, far better than conscripts or grens. The M34 costs almost nothing, if you don't think it's powerful enough, build more.

  • #24
    2 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    @MCMartel
    So your answer to the MG34 being a piece of shit is to "build more" of them?!
    By that rationale I could tell you to simply "build more" whenever you're asking for buffs for your beloved cons...
  • #25
    2 years ago
    Lnk003Lnk003 Posts: 417
    edited October 2016

    OKW mg as opening: No issue if okw starts with one volks squad but not with sturm as starting unit.

    In the current design: I just wished it was an mg42 because of the tech. Some OST plays during the tournament showed MG42 supporting aggessive gameplay is viable, but to me it's more by the time it comes and because you have kubel to cap you don't need mg to encourage aggressive play.
    Edit: meanning you're mostly looking for suppression so mg42 would be perfect for that.

  • #26
    2 years ago

    @Lnk003 said:
    OKW mg as opening: No issue if okw starts with one volks squad but not with sturm as starting unit.

    In the current design: I just wished it was an mg42 because of the tech. Some OST plays during the tournament showed MG42 supporting aggessive gameplay is viable, but to me it's more by the time it comes and because you have kubel to cap you don't need mg to encourage aggressive play.

    That's the problem. Volks are getting rolled early on by Vickers, UC, Scout Car, Penals, Rifles, Mortars whatever. I'm talking more of a defensive stance because what is currently being done is just being attack moved over most of the time. Volks get no respect.

  • #27
    2 years ago
    The only problem is, that Vickers and Maxim are OP in comparison. ^^

    Put the 34 to Ostheer and the 42 to Westheer. So Ostheer can't overwhelm with MGs anymore so we can finally nerf all other MGs AND we can buff Grenadiers.

    Balancing can be so easy.
  • #28
    2 years ago
    null

    Ive actually had quite a different experience of the game... and I've gotta say first off this seems like a rant at aspects that you don't like rather than a constructive way to fix them.

    The MG34 could use a surpession buff.

    The LIG for me is one of the most effective field guns in the game. They rapidly auto target and fire quickly at anything in thier sight radious and require almost no micro to use. Thier barrage ability can wipe static squads and enemy support squads, and emplacements really quickly. LIGs are really powerful when used right, you dont always need to wipe squads to be effective they effectively bleed squads too.


    But if you leave LIGs static they will be vulnerable to counterfire, reposition your LIGs occassionally if u are concerned about enemy mortars, and of course protect them.

    USF mortars are over performing. This is known. However wehr mortars also have an insane ROF also. The M120mm Mortar should be better than the LIG... its more costly and is a doctrinal unit.

    Like all mortars there comes a point in the game where their effectivness is reduced slightly. This is when artillery comes in... and the OKW have the best mobile artillery in the game. Stukas are awsome i regulary get mine to vet 4-5 when i use them.

    Sturmpios are not a defensive unit... they are an aggressive one... go from cover to cover with them or flank and assault for the best use. Once the enemy has been pushed off plant mines and barbed wire, they attack with them again. Vetted sturmpios can hold thier own against even elite troops.

    The Flakk Track could use a slight armour buff... but its primarily a defense/ supprt platform. I keep mine at the rear of my army and support thier advance with it. Usually its protected by hmg and raketan.

    Volks are some of the best and most cost effective infantry in the game... equip them with STGs and they become even better, they have access to faust for anti armour and flame grenades which are superb for building clerence and for no mp or fuel cost. Volks are really versatile and useful for thier cost, and if u have good unit preservation they can scale really well. Volks arnt the best unit in the game and can be countered but they are cheap for what they do and scale well with good damage.


    If u are still struggling for building clerence get some sturm pios with flamers or the flame hetzer with the right doctrine. Or u could always build golaiths. LIGs and stukas also wreck buildings.

    It can be difficult to tell because text is ambiguous but it feels like from what you are saying that you arnt using all the units within thier proper roles or for the right purposes.

    I agree that OKW faction could use some improvements but the faction isnt currently unusable like you are suggesting.


    Other factions also have thier issues. OKW is not the only faction that has to pay for things like medic bunkers or medics (granted some of the other factions options are cheaper). Take soviets for instance they have to py 40-50 fuel +MP just to unlock basic grenades... and it takes time for that upgrade to apply... their medics should be cheaper after that massive outlay... especially considering its soviets ONLY non dctrinal infantry upgrades and even then I hardly see anyone get the medics cos they spent so much on grenade teching... it becomes unaffordable.

    As it happens i do think the medic upgrades should all be cheaper for all factions... but with OKW you also have to consider that the mdics can be placed anywhere on map in a fairly durable hq truck, wehrmact bunkers can also be placed anywhere but are not as durable but are cheaper, USF ambulence is really vulnerable and also fights for resources when u have to unlock grenades and weapon racks. OKW dosnt require any fuel to access weapon upgrades.

    Dont get me wrong Im not saying OKW is the best faction or unbetable but they are also not the doom and gloom situation u paint them as.

    They longer a game goes on the more it drops into the favour of the axis. As shown statistically by the most recent 1v1 tournament.
  • #29
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588

    I think the broken part here is the USF mortar. It should be fixed, instead of balancing the rest of the game around it.

  • #30
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    @Baálthazor said:
    @MCMartel
    So your answer to the MG34 being a piece of shit is to "build more" of them?!
    By that rationale I could tell you to simply "build more" whenever you're asking for buffs for your beloved cons...

    You want to reduce cons cost to 190? Ok.

  • #31
    2 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    @MCMartel
    Sure, you can lower their cost to 190. Hell, make it a straight benjamin for all I care, as long as you also reduce their combat potential to that of the mg34... yes, it's really THAT bad!

    But all that is bullony, because it's not the point I was trying to make and you know it.

    Solving an issue with a unit that is garbage by simply suggesting that you "build more" of them, is a horrible, horrible argument. Hell, it's not even an argument to begin with...
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