[SU][All] Side Teching gone intimate

#1
3 years ago
GrittleGrittle Posts: 993
edited September 2016 in Balance Feedback

EDIT: Svanh has made a mod detailing all the changes in this Idea (Except Soviet War Machine, He used Rapid Deployment indstead) steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=763843576

Now, just about every man, woman, and child on this forum has, one way or another, heard about Soviet Side Teching Syndrome (SSTS), which is a very serious condition pertaining to the SU HQ Techs. see it from this trumpish quote:

Thank you. It’s true, and these are the best and the finest. When Soviet Union sends its Side Tech, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you (points at weapon racks). They’re not sending you (points at bolster infantry). They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with balance. They’re bringing extremely slow molotovs. They’re bringing unnecessary resources dumping. They’re useless. And some, I assume, are good techs (points at HQ Medics).

As seen from the quote above, Soviets have some of the most archaic, redundant, and most ineffective side techs in my life, I bet that if OKW got a 200 manpower, 20 fuel side tech that boosts sWs Truck durability by like 20%, that would more useful than the soviet molotovs.

So lets get cracking, or like the ancient Hawaiians Soviet players used to say: grenades throw faster than molotovs, but its not as refreshing.

Field Hospitable
Is good. nothing to see.

Molotovs and AT(Anti-Tangerine) Grenades
Molotovs need to throw a good 1 second faster 1st off, if Volk Firecrackers, costing double and requires no teching, can be thrown in 1/5 of the time of a molotov, we have a problem.

What needs to also happen is the fusion of the AT and Molotov Techs into one, neat, soviet rationed packaged. If the USF can get smokes and nades in a single package too, why not Yuri & Company?

As for the cost of it, it can be 250 manpower and 20 or 25 fuel. that seems reasonable enough for government work.

The 3rd slot
With both grenades now married and having kids, we have a power vacuum of no 3rd tech.

Now, we could be """""SOME""""" people and just ignore it. Or we could make a new tech that potential ad some extra paprika to the SU love army life.

I personally have 2 ideas, both:

  • Unlockable at T4
  • Cost 300 manpower, 100 fuel
  • take 30 seconds to research
  • are guaranteed fun ;)
  • comes with free rosemary beads and three turtles

Now, that is where the differences end, and the similarities beg--
wait, other way around.

TECH IDEA 1: RAPID REINFORCEMENT
Infantry reinforcement costs and reinforcement speed reduced by 20%, conscripts get an additional 10% reduced reinforcement cost speed.(to a total of 30%)

This tech will give the SU some breathing room with mid-late game manpower bleed, make conscripts more useful in the same time frame. and is truly a side tech as your choose between rapid infantry deployment, or a T34 /better tank.

TECH IDEA 2: SOVIET WAR MACHINE
After researching, for every 2 non-clown, car player-bought vehicles destroyed by the enemy, receive a free T34/76 from command

A more controversial tech in my opinion, but essentially a permanent vehicle-esque rapid conscription passive.

B-b-b-bbb-bb-bb--b--bbb-bbbbuuT Grittle! Muh Soviets will just spem cheap vehicles for free t34s!!!!!!!

That may be right, but I, in my superior intellect and common sense, made it so the T1 scout car AND captured vehicles (From USF ally or unlucky Axis Player) does not count to the War Machine count.

Not only that, but the cheapest non-scout car vehicle a Soviet play can currently deploy is the T3 Halftrack, which costs 270 Manpower, 30 fuel, and 5 pop cap.

BBBSBDIUVFIVDUS-BUT GRITTLE IT COSTS 20 LESS FUEL TO LOSE 2 HTS FOR 1 FREE OVERPOWER T34/76 PLZ NERF IT--

Calm yourself son, once you hear me out, you can get some milk and cookies, okay?

OKkay...

There, now let me explain,

30*2=60 fuel, 20 less than the 80 for the T34, understandable argument, but hear me out

270*2=540 Manpower, 240 more manpower than the T34, you could have bought yaself a conscript with that premium

5*2=10 popcap, so no USF 112/100 pop cap parties there

But by throwing away 2 Halftracks, you may save 20 fuel, but here's the catch, if you can actually catch...

  • You lose 240 manpower
  • You gave the enemy free vet from 2 halftracks and potentially free HT if one falls to RNG and abandons
  • You spend about 10 seconds longer building 2 Halftracks than actually building the T34/76
  • And most of all, the OKW has Salvaging, and I dont see that many players blowing up their 210 manpower kubels to salvage the 5 free fuel from it in the safety of their HQ sector...

Now, we have some good ideas written down, now lets relax and argue with each other for the next 4 months!

Tagged:

Comments

  • #2
    3 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951
    edited September 2016

    Good stuff as usual, Grittle. Rolling 'nades together is a good call and has been needed for a while.

    Not sure how I feel about War Machine , though. While I do like paprika and can never turn it down, I'm not sure its really needed anymore since the Soviets are so spicy nowadays. But assuming it is, being passive though probably wouldn't work. IMO a toggle that reduces muni income for its duration or a simple activation like Rapid Conscription with a long duration would be better.

  • #3
    3 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993

    Aqua said:
    Good stuff as usual, Grittle. Rolling 'nades together is a good call and has been needed for a while.

    Not sure how I feel about War Machine , though. While I do like paprika and can never turn it down, I'm not sure its really needed anymore since the Soviets are so spicy nowadays. But assuming it is, being passive though probably wouldn't work. IMO a toggle that reduces muni income for its duration or a simple activation like Rapid Conscription with a long duration would be better.

    Maybe an unlockable ability, like how OKW gets the KT call in now for full tech.

    Maybe your right

    But it's a late game "insurance" thing, you pay the 300mp/100fuel deductible at T4, and when you go into a car crash and lose an IS-2 and an SU-85 (and maybe your spleen), you get a (((Free))) T34/76 as "insurance"

  • #4
    3 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,991

    Dont really know if I can really support that T-34 idea. Sure, you have to invest something in the first place to get something in return... but no one else gets something like that. Taking your example above: You lose an IS-2 and a SU-85 in that engagement, while your opponent lost a Panther and a StuG (hypothesis alone, actual fuel prices are not that relevant, its more about the core concept) you get a consolation prize for losing units while that poor bastard on the other side doesnt even get dickbutt, even after selling a kidney to get T4 as Wehr up and running...

  • #5
    3 years ago
    Great post as always @grittle.
    The biggest problem I see with rolling the nades is that it-at the cost of economy- reduces opening options. For example when I play in an urban map I often tech molitovs after my first con squad and build a muni cache after my second because no one expects their first mg tp be bathed in flames..
    The at nade tech is much to expensive and I think there lies the problem- its a cost for the sake of being "unique" and imo thats the prohibitive part...
  • #6
    3 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993

    @Hingie said:
    Dont really know if I can really support that T-34 idea. Sure, you have to invest something in the first place to get something in return... but no one else gets something like that. Taking your example above: You lose an IS-2 and a SU-85 in that engagement, while your opponent lost a Panther and a StuG (hypothesis alone, actual fuel prices are not that relevant, its more about the core concept) you get a consolation prize for losing units while that poor bastard on the other side doesnt even get dickbutt, even after selling a kidney to get T4 as Wehr up and running...

    You see, both players has AT by T4 and beyond, but the difference is the Axis player usually has the superior and more potent AT. I personally consider Panzerfaust and Shreck >>>>> At-nade and Zooka/Pro-TRS 87.64% of the time.

    also mines and AT guns

    And I'm not even covering doctrinal items (Prosttruppen, Falls Airdrop (I consider it a recover ability in that you dont spend manpower for units), Call-ins in general, "recoup" abilities)

    So long story short: I believe The Axis can usually recover and handle a semi-surprise T34/76 faster and more effectively than a SU or USF player recovering and handle a surprise Panzer 4.

    Ostheer would obviously feel much more severe, but that's a problem with Otheer's current unit prices/cost effectiveness right now.

    Also, there are other abilities that work nearly/exactly the same way for all factions EXCEPT UKF (because UKF is WorstKF)

    SU has rapid conscription

    OST has Relief Infantry

    OKW has Recoup Losses

    USF has Withdraw and Refit (Bit of a stretch, but you basically "refund" vehicles you already bought)

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Great post as always @grittle.
    The biggest problem I see with rolling the nades is that it-at the cost of economy- reduces opening options. For example when I play in an urban map I often tech molitovs after my first con squad and build a muni cache after my second because no one expects their first mg tp be bathed in flames..
    The at nade tech is much to expensive and I think there lies the problem- its a cost for the sake of being "unique" and imo thats the prohibitive part...

    I never really thought of that, I usually get molotovs later/never in a game as it really needs to throw 1 second faster.

    Maybe, another suggestion, would be to make HQ medics come out automatically with tech (T1, or T2), and have the molo and AT be split, but at slightly reduced costs and research speed, and still have room for a decent 3rd side tech.

  • #7
    3 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,991
    edited September 2016

    I really dont see how Axis have more potent AT units anymore with the SU-85 and Jackson being the best AT vehicles for cost in the game. Your system would also lead to Soviets getting a 2for1 package as far as T-34s are concerned. Build 2, get one free, thus punishing Axis even harder for the loss of AT vehicles or units than its already the case. A StuG is more expensive than a T-34 and while it can deal with one of them, a pair of T-34s will destroy it. So after the initial costs of your idea, a single T-34 will be worth half of its costs, effectively making it the most cost-efficient unit in the game and basically turning the game into easy mode because for a net investment of 180 fuel once you get a permanent 50% off of all T-34s spammed from thereon. And the thought of a "40 fuel" T-34 is terrifying.

  • #8
    3 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993

    @Hingie said:
    I really dont see how Axis have more potent AT units anymore with the SU-85 and Jackson being the best AT vehicles for cost in the game. Your system would also lead to Soviets getting a 2for1 package as far as T-34s are concerned. Build 2, get one free, thus punishing Axis even harder for the loss of AT vehicles or units than its already the case. A StuG is more expensive than a T-34 and while it can deal with one of them, a pair of T-34s will destroy it. So after the initial costs of your idea, a single T-34 will be worth half of its costs, effectively making it the most cost-efficient unit in the game and basically turning the game into easy mode because for a net investment of 180 fuel once you get a permanent 50% off of all T-34s spammed from thereon. And the thought of a "40 fuel" T-34 is terrifying.

    If this was before the T34 buff, I could argue with you with great gusto

    But this is a dystopian future where beagles are our overlords and frogs are considered nazis. So I have to take a different approach.

    Tell me, how many soviet vehicles AFTER T4, do you see in a 1v1? and how many Before T4 survive PAST T4?

    I through personal experience and watching various replays and stream would have to say at most? I would say a T70 or a SU/76 with a HT atmost survive past T4 in a 1v1. And usually, the player (or I) would either get after, at most 2 SU-85s, maybe 1 or 2 T34/76s or a IS-2. maybe an odd chance of a KV-1 or KV-8 as a birthday suprise.

    So, subtract 1 T34 from the equation (for the input cost) and you have a total of (Best case scenario)

    at most, a total 8 vehicles, in a 1v1, and this has to be like a 1 hour long grudge match.

    If your a total dimwit and manage to lose all 8: 4 T34/76s (The Free T34/76 also doesn't count to the War Machine Count obviously). maybe 3 if you lose a vehicle before researching the tech. and hopefully you dont lose them all at once.

    BUT, you do bring up a great point. The T34/76 should not come immediately, and there should be a cooldown between insurance policies to prevent unfair all-ins with a 2nd wave. I have to commend you on that

    so I'll add these changes:

    For every 2 player-bought vehicles (excluding clown car) that is destroyed by the enemy, command will begin sending a replacement T34/76 (30) seconds after being announced. and a cooldown of 3 minutes between replacement T34/76s. player-bought vehicles destroyed during the cooldown AND replacement T34/76s will not count towards the War Machine count.

    With these changes, the enemy, if taking an equal losses in an engagement, will have time to prepare for the replacement T34/76, and wont have to worry about a 2nd one for while afterwards.

  • #9
    3 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993
    edited September 2016

    Thanks Svanh for making the Mod for this Idea!

    steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=763843576

  • #10
    3 years ago
    hsk9146hsk9146 Posts: 153

    Jacksons are supposedly made out of paper and SU85s are vulnerable to flanks. You can't expect to rush everything in a straight line and win. surround the target and SU85s might be easy to kill. But sov players usually get paranoid about tanks and they are most likely going to have more AT solutions.

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