[OKW][ALL] HEAT shells are bad

#1
2 years ago
SlyzorSlyzor Posts: 51
edited September 2016 in Balance Feedback

The health/damage system for vehicles works that way that most of the time you don't have any overkill vs vehicle. For example medium tanks have either 640 hp or 800 hp and most of AT guns/tank weapons deal 160 damage. That means that you need either 4 or 5 shots to destroy a medium tank and you won't do any overkill.
The problem with HEAT shells is that they increase damage by 30% and this doesn't really work with that system. In most cases this actually doesn't decrease the number of hits that you need to destroy a vehicle. For example p4 deals 160 damage normally so you need 4 shots to kill a cromwell. With HEAT shells p4 deals 208 damage. After 3 hits it leaves cromwell at sliver of health but you still need 4th hit to finish it off. So HEAT shells realistically only make the opponent to spend more time repairing his tanks. They really work only in the case if the opponent didn't fully repaired his tank so it doesn't have that sliver of health that could have saved it. In comparison to HEAT shells other damage increasing abilities like mark target or mark vehicle increase damage by 35% and 50% respectively so they don't have this problem.
The solution is to increase damage from HEAT shells from 30% to 35%. I'd say increase munitions cost by 5 too but this ability is already kind of expensive (45 munis) so I won't.

Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017
    Sure. 35% seems fair.

    Somebody smarter than me do the math on how this impacts the KTs gun. It may need to stay at 30% depending on how this stacks up
  • #3
    2 years ago

    Ya he's right it doesn't three P4 doesn't 3 shot. 160+30%=208, 208x3=624 Cromwell, Sherman, etc. health is 640. So I believe it should be 35% damage increase which would make damage 216. (216x3=648)

    @Lazarus said:
    Somebody smarter than me do the math on how this impacts the KTs gun. It may need to stay at 30% depending on how this stacks up

    KT dmg=240, 240+35%=324 (currently 240+30%=312)

  • #4
    2 years ago
    Obviously you have never used a vetted jp4 with HEAT...
  • #5
    2 years ago

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Obviously you have never used a vetted jp4 with HEAT...

    OKW P4 doesnt even get damage or penetration through vet so increasing damage by 24 is pretty fair

  • #6
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Obviously you have never used a vetted jp4 with HEAT...

    A fair point - however the ability is for ALL OKW units to get HEAT shells, not just the JPIV, and even then that's less HEAT shells being an amazing bonus for the JPIV and more the JPIV has an amazing vet bonus... and also HEAT shells are there.

  • #7
    2 years ago

    They are great on JPIV due to its high RoF (with vet) and on KT due to high base damage. Useless on other units though, especially on Panthers and P4.

  • #8
    2 years ago
    SlyzorSlyzor Posts: 51
    edited September 2016

    @Exterminatus said:
    They are great on JPIV due to its high RoF (with vet) and on KT due to high base damage. Useless on other units though, especially on Panthers and P4.

    I only agree if JP is vet 5. With vet 5 it can 2-shot a medium tank with HEAT shells instead of 3 from stealth. Vet 0-4 JP has the same problem - it will kill a medium tank with 4 shots with or without HEAT shells. Same problem with KT - you'll need 2 KT shots and 1 tank shot to kill a medium tank with or without HEAT shells.

  • #9
    2 years ago
    I use elite armour 95% of the games I play, and I pop HEAT for most engagments. One can say that making a p4 hit like Jackson isnt great, but that also means that hitting with a p4 and a shrek is as good as 2 p4 hits. Even if you dont manage to secure the kill and the enemy escapes with a sliver of health, you added time to its repair and a Lil bit of breathing room. ALSO doesnt heat also increase pen? I was sure it did...
  • #10
    2 years ago
    SlyzorSlyzor Posts: 51
    edited September 2016

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    ALSO doesnt heat also increase pen? I was sure it did...

    It does but 45 munis just for pen is a lot.

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    One can say that making a p4 hit like Jackson isnt great

    I'm not sure what do you mean. P4 already has the same damage as Jackson.

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    added time to its repair and a Lil bit of breathing room

    It's like extra 5 seconds. Doesn't mean anything.

  • #11
    2 years ago

    @Slyzor said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    ALSO doesnt heat also increase pen? I was sure it did...

    It does but 45 munis just for pen is a lot.

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    One can say that making a p4 hit like Jackson isnt great

    I'm not sure what do you mean. P4 already has the same damage as Jackson.

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    added time to its repair and a Lil bit of breathing room

    It's like extra 5 seconds. Doesn't mean anything.

    increased pen is always welcome, 45 mu is little if it means the kill shot is less likely to bounce
    and no, the jackson deals 200 damage default 240 with hvap, p4 deals 160 default 208 with HEAT
    every second counts.

    basicly its a reliability buff, it makes evry shot a little more threatening

    @Lazarus it brings the kt up to 312 damage, so nearly heavy TD levels

    35%would bring KT up to 324
    p4 to 215
    puma to 108

    @captainjordy jp4 actually gets both damage and pen via vet, however it is when attacking from stealth at vet 5 (and its +150% damage and pen, meaning 400 damage pre HEAT and 520 with)

  • #12
    2 years ago
    SlyzorSlyzor Posts: 51
    edited September 2016

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    and no, the jackson deals 200 damage default

    Jeez, I looked up the stats and this s actually true. But it kinda makes sense that I didn't notice that before since it still needs 4 shots to kill a medium tank. Kinda wierd that it has 200 dmg considering that every other medium td has 160 dmg. Even Tiger and Pershing have 160 dmg. And people whine that Jackson has too little health.

  • #13
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @captainjordy jp4 actually gets both damage and pen via vet, however it is when attacking from stealth at vet 5 (and its +150% damage and pen, meaning 400 damage pre HEAT and 520 with)

    I think Slyzor is right about this. The ability is clearly flawed as he described it. I don't think we should balance it around a vet5 JP4 which receives +150% bonus for its FIRST!! shot from camo. Again its a single shot, so in case you reach vet5 with a JP4 you can save 1 extra shot for a doctrinal 45MU ability. In any other case, you dont...

    Btw to reach vet5 with a JP4 you need to kill circa 9 T34...

  • #14
    2 years ago
    captainjordycaptainjo… Posts: 498
    edited September 2016

    @thedarkarmadillo said:

    @Slyzor said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    ALSO doesnt heat also increase pen? I was sure it did...

    It does but 45 munis just for pen is a lot.

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    One can say that making a p4 hit like Jackson isnt great

    I'm not sure what do you mean. P4 already has the same damage as Jackson.

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    added time to its repair and a Lil bit of breathing room

    It's like extra 5 seconds. Doesn't mean anything.

    increased pen is always welcome, 45 mu is little if it means the kill shot is less likely to bounce
    and no, the jackson deals 200 damage default 240 with hvap, p4 deals 160 default 208 with HEAT
    every second counts.

    basicly its a reliability buff, it makes evry shot a little more threatening

    @Lazarus it brings the kt up to 312 damage, so nearly heavy TD levels

    35%would bring KT up to 324
    p4 to 215
    puma to 108

    @captainjordy jp4 actually gets both damage and pen via vet, however it is when attacking from stealth at vet 5 (and its +150% damage and pen, meaning 400 damage pre HEAT and 520 with)

    Thought you said P4. Anyway with OP's request it would only increase damage from 448 to 456, which is not much. Plus when was the last time you saw a vet 5 jp4? Be honest.

    The JP4 has 160 damage. With HEAT (+30% damage) that's 208. With OP's requested 5% more damage that's 216 damage. I think getting the JP4 to vet 5 then using one of the most unused commanders and using 45 more munitions while shooting only doing 448/456 from the 1st shot out of camouflage is fair lol.

  • #15
    2 years ago

    @RiCE said:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    @captainjordy jp4 actually gets both damage and pen via vet, however it is when attacking from stealth at vet 5 (and its +150% damage and pen, meaning 400 damage pre HEAT and 520 with)

    I think Slyzor is right about this. The ability is clearly flawed as he described it. I don't think we should balance it around a vet5 JP4 which receives +150% bonus for its FIRST!! shot from camo. Again its a single shot, so in case you reach vet5 with a JP4 you can save 1 extra shot for a doctrinal 45MU ability. In any other case, you dont...

    Btw to reach vet5 with a JP4 you need to kill circa 9 T34...

    i dont disagree, it shouldnt be balanced around the vet5 jp4, was just pointing out that
    i wouldnt be opposed to a buff to HEAT, but i dont really see it as a priority
    35% is a nice number for sure tho.

    @captainjordy i mainly only play team games these days so i actually frequently get a jp4 to 5 (stealth OP)

  • #16
    2 years ago
    moremegamoremega REDWOOD CITY CA USAPosts: 229

    it shines mostly with the puma, which allows it to tackle med armor much more effectivly, but I guess it could use more damage to both inf and vehicles as long as they dnt raise the price.

  • #17
    2 years ago

    3 shots + faust would knock out any stock medium using HEAT rounds.

  • #18
    2 years ago
    BaálthazorBaálthazor The shoreline by the river Styx.Posts: 1,092
    @1ncendiary_Rounds
    Yeah, pretty much. :)

    I agree that the heat-shells can seem as sort of redundant in and of itself, but I mostly use it to make the opposing tanks even more vulnerable to other, less damaging shots, like faust as you mentioned. :)
  • #19
    2 years ago
    SlyzorSlyzor Posts: 51
    edited September 2016

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    3 shots + faust would knock out any stock medium using HEAT rounds.

    It's true though if you get enemy vehicle snared and you have a tank nearby most likely you can finish it off anyway. You may even want to not spend munis on HEAT shells in that case.

  • #20
    2 years ago
    1ncendiary_Rounds1ncendiar… Posts: 798
    edited September 2016

    @Slyzor said:

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    3 shots + faust would knock out any stock medium using HEAT rounds.

    It's true though if you get enemy vehicle snared and you have a tank nearby most likely you can finish it off anyway. You may even want to not spend munis on HEAT shells in that case.

    Not if you're using a p4, cuz the penetration with normal rounds is trash. If I have lets say a Sherman snared, and the Sherman bounces one or two shots (which happens more often than u think,) you'll have to have your p4 most likely behind enemy lines trying to land a penetrating shot, which means you're in enemy terriroty for a longer period of time which allows at support to have more time to respond to your p4. Zook rifles are the most annoying thing for a p4 since they can quickly snare up your p4 very quickly. So if you want the guaranteed kill on the Sherman without running the risk of losing your p4, HEAT rounds are the way to go.

  • #21
    2 years ago
    Heat shells should make the p4 guaranteed pen vs the Sherman...
Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

  • © SEGA. SEGA, the SEGA logo, Relic Entertainment, the Relic Entertainment logo, Company of Heroes and the Company of Heroes logo are either trademarks or registered trademarks of SEGA Holdings Co., Ltd. or its affiliates. All rights reserved. SEGA is registered in the US Patent and Trademark Office. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.