[SOV] [1V1] Penals, Guards and Guard motor coordinated tactics

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  • #62
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @newshatterhand said:
    Unvetted penals do not win against unvetted lmg grens at longrange with cover. So their core stats are quite allright, they just gain a bit too much from vet compared to others....

    1) Never claimed they did win (although they can with Rng help), but by vet 1 the fight is rather even.
    They do win against unvetted grenadiers (no lmg) at long range and cover though rather easily
    2) by the time Gren get lmgs Penals are vetted
    3) they beat grenadiers easily at mid and close
    4) no their core stats are not alright
    5) their vet abilities and weapons upgrades are all over the place making able to fight most axis infantries at their respectively optimum ranges, while being able to chose their own favorite range with ourah at vet 2.

  • #63
    3 years ago
    newshatterhandnewshatte… Posts: 278
    edited October 2016

    @Vipper said:

    @newshatterhand said:
    Unvetted penals do not win against unvetted lmg grens at longrange with cover. So their core stats are quite allright, they just gain a bit too much from vet compared to others....

    1) Never claimed they did win (although they can with Rng help), but by vet 1 the fight is rather even.
    They do win against unvetted grenadiers (no lmg) at long range and cover though rather easily
    2) by the time Gren get lmgs Penals are vetted
    3) they beat grenadiers easily at mid and close
    4) no their core stats are not alright
    5) their vet abilities and weapons upgrades are all over the place making able to fight most axis infantries at their respectively optimum ranges, while being able to chose their own favorite range with ourah at vet 2.

    1) I never claimed you claimed they did. XD I stated that as for the reasoning that their base stats are fine and that only with vet they get a bit too good.
    2) I dunno if you dodge fighting penals too much and use mgs to supress them they don't gain vet quickly. Also depends on when the penal squad is bought. It is not OP that a 300mp with vet specialised at AI beats nonvetted grens without mg42 at long range. vet 1 vs vet 1 is perhaps unfair because gren vet 1 is terrible, but that is a problem that lays in grens design not penals.
    3) yup, which is totally fair for an AI specialist that costs 300mp imo.
    4) I think they are
    5) I agree with vet they get a bit too good.

    Penals get crushed and baserushed by any vehicle when they do not have support, grens can at least to some degree deal with vehicles on their own. And their snare is still super usefull when you do have AT to stop vehicles from getting away. Penals also cannot protect your snipers and mgs from vehicles and even when you buy AT guns to back up penals light vehicles can simply drive rounds around your AT and then kill your penals after that. Infantery with vehicle snairs are super important. So that gives the balance, penals are supposed to deal with axis infantery easily but do nothing against vehicles, so the axis can exploit that or the soviets need to mix cons in their army which add almost no AI bringing the AI of the total army down to a reasonable level. Or invest in guards, but guards+penals cost a lot of mp.

  • #64
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @newshatterhand said:
    2) It is not OP that a 300mp with vet specialised at AI beats nonvetted grens without mg42 at long range. vet 1 vs vet 1 is perhaps unfair because gren vet 1 is terrible, but that is a problem that lays in grens design not penals.

    No that is not what I wrote.
    No weapons, no Vet heavy cover Penal beat grenadiers at all ranges with little loses
    LMG, vet 1, heavy cover Penal break about even with at long, beat them at all other ranges

    3) yup, which is totally fair for an AI specialist that costs 300mp imo.

    As Hingie pointed out with that rational Ober should crash the majority allies infantry at all ranges since they are the most expensive infantry with the highest tech cost...I can also add that the 340 MP T2 Pgs should also beat the 300 T1 Penal at all ranges.

    With the "Update September 9th, 2014" Relic creates one of the best patches where infantries where designed for a role/range. Read it understand or else there is little point in debating this...

    The idea is that more expensive unit do not beat even cheaper units at all ranges. For instance riflemen with "carbines" (actually semi auto) that cost 280 will lose to Grenadier with both action that cost 240 in long range fight in heavy cover.

    This allows the player who makes better use of his units win...

    Penals get crushed and baserushed by any vehicle when they do not have support,...

    They simply should not be unsupported even a conscript can drive a kubel or 222 away...and it it irrelevant, Pg aslo will lose to light vehicles but the do not go around crushing all enemy infantries that are cheaper then they are, neither did SP before they got the Shreck...

  • #65
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    1. Penals don't beat LMG's are long range or assault rifles are short range, so that "all ranges" thing is just wrong.
    2. Conscripts, a 240 mp unit, can't even fend off a kubel (a 210 mp unit) much less a 222, certainly not without a fuel-intensive sidegrade to do what grens (which everyone says are SOOO UP) can do for free. Conscripts are, far and away, the weakest base infantry in the game, they are garbage.
  • #66
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Obers is a bit of a skewed example because its widely accepted that they are underpowered and overpriced since their Nerf, but additionally obers can lay traps and buff their longrange dps to great levels of burst damage that fires on the move, they spawn on field as well.

    Additionally pgrens are not in the same vein as penals because as said, they can get AT. Additionally pgrens are oftern regarded as UP..
  • #67
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    1. Penals don't beat LMG's are long range or assault rifles are short range, so that "all ranges" thing is just wrong.

    All you have to do is test, try lmg grenadiers vet 3 in cover and far vs Penal vet 3 10 times and report your findings...

    1. Conscripts, a 240 mp unit, ...

    Once more pls stop obsessing with conscripts in a thread about Penals and Guards.

  • #68
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,089

    @Vipper said:

    @Lazarus said:
    They can beat grenadiers at long range. Not LMG Grens. Grens are not a specialist unit.

    Test vetted Penals in heavy cover no flamer against vetted LMG Gren at heavy cover 10 times and let as know the result.

    Also see what Relic has to say about Grenadiers, not Lmg Grenadiers...

    "Grenadiers
    Intended to excel at long range
    Highest long range damage output for its tier"
    Sound to me like a specialist unit...

    That was written before the Penal rebalance. Also - build T1 and buy Penals. Then build T1 and buy Grenadiers. Tell us how much vet they come out with?

  • #69
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @Lazarus said:
    That was written before the Penal rebalance. Also - build T1 and buy Penals. Then build T1 and buy Grenadiers. Tell us how much vet they come out with?

    That is a design intent by Relic that applies to most units like Obers, shock troops etch...they are design to be good at a some range not all.

    Now you built a T1 and see if grenadiers come out with LMG or not.

    Once more, Penals beat grenadiers (no weapon no vet) at all other ranges.

    Penals at vet 1 break even with LMG grenadiers far and beat them at all ranges

    After vet 1 thing become increasingly worse for Grenadiers...

    That was the situation between Riflemen and Grenadiers when WFA was released and that is why the "Update September 9th, 2014" was implement.

    Now the same problem exist between Penal and Grens (or Volkgrens)
    and the same solution should apply it is as simple as that.

  • #70
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    edited October 2016

    Vipper, I am not "obsessing" about conscripts. Penals are the sole useful infantry the USSR has, because maxims were overnerfed, and conscripts are garbage, therefore Penals need to be treated really carefully any change in their balance be combined with changes to other infantry or the USSR will go back to it's previously unplayably UP state.
    Also, vipper, what you need to do is take stock penals and stock grens with LMG's in cover and have them fight, that's far more representative of most fighting than vet 3 troops.

  • #71
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Grens lose to everything except blasted cons (which DO matter because nerfing/adjusting penals effects cons in the same way that nerfing the stug would effect the p4- the slack has to be taken up and cons are not strong enough to hold the weight of the Soviet faction.)
    Penals are here to kill shit and blow stuff up, take away one and that leaves them as nuke throwers to punish AFK players (kinda like they were pre buff, remember that time when they were never ever EVER used?) if you can kite them and shut them down with a 60mp cheaper, generalists unit there is literally no point in having them (like they were pre buff) 300MP early game is alot for a single squad, especially one that only has killing infantry in mind. Their weaknesses are lack of AT and that they bleed like a stuck pig for with losses, they have no smoke meaning an mg42 easily shuts them down.

    Penals are easily managed but devastating if not countered.
  • #72
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @MCMartel said:
    Also, vipper, what you need to do is take stock penals and stock grens with LMG's in cover and have them fight, that's far more representative of most fighting than vet 3 troops.

    Why don't you take grenadiers and penal and test them at vet 0 vet 1 vet 2 vet 3, and then do the same with Penals vs LMG Grenadiers and see what happens...I know what happens I have tested it...

  • #73
    3 years ago
    VutherVuther Posts: 2,129

    Penals could use a small nerf. Even odds for 1v1ing LMG42 Grens at max range is definitely too good for the cost and how much they'll win if they get any closer - reduce their long accuracy by like, 3 percentages; that should ensure LMG42 Grens will have the advantage, but not by a huge amount. Double 1.30 accuracy's also probably a little bit too much, bring vet 2 down to 1.25 and see how it goes from there. It's important to keep them lethal, so delicateness to the matter is paramount.

  • #74
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Grens lose to everything except blasted cons ...

    They actually beat riflemen far and Tommies close, and they lose to conscripts mid and close, get your facts straight...
    If you where right I should start shouting around like MCMartel that "grens are almost total garbage"...

    Penals are here to kill shit and blow stuff up, ...if you can kite them and shut them down with a 60mp cheaper, generalists unit there is literally no point in having them...

    I did not suggest to nerfed to oblivion, read and understand what I have written or there is little point in debating.

    The problem is not that they kill other units the problem is that they can kill enemy units even at their optimal ranges, meaning that there very little counter play when fighting them with infantry.

    If grenadier could beat them at far that does not mean they would shut them down, since Penals could still simply close the distance and win the fight as riflemen do.

    As I have explained countless time RELIC decided with September 9th, 2014 (very wisely imo) that infantry fights should not only be decided by the cost of each unit but also by the players ability to use his units strength and his enemy weakness.

    A Grenadier or Volks grenadiers will lose to Penals almost in all cases no matter what a players does and that is out of own Relic's design intent.

    Maybe cons should be cheaper, maybe they should be stronger at mid but they should not be able to fight enemy infantries that good in most ranges and situations.

  • #75
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    @Vipper said:

    @MCMartel said:
    Also, vipper, what you need to do is take stock penals and stock grens with LMG's in cover and have them fight, that's far more representative of most fighting than vet 3 troops.

    Why don't you take grenadiers and penal and test them at vet 0 vet 1 vet 2 vet 3, and then do the same with Penals vs LMG Grenadiers and see what happens...I know what happens I have tested it...

    I did, they get chewed up charging in stock.

  • #76
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @MCMartel said:

    @Vipper said:

    @MCMartel said:
    Also, vipper, what you need to do is take stock penals and stock grens with LMG's in cover and have them fight, that's far more representative of most fighting than vet 3 troops.

    Why don't you take grenadiers and penal and test them at vet 0 vet 1 vet 2 vet 3, and then do the same with Penals vs LMG Grenadiers and see what happens...I know what happens I have tested it...

    I did, they get chewed up charging in stock.

    that is not what I told you to test and we are probably a different version of the game is Gren without lmg kill penal while they try to approach...

  • #77
    3 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    No, I said that vet 0 grens with lmg vs vet 0 penals grens chewed up penals just fine at long range. I said stock penal stats are fine, if want to finesse their vet 3 stats a bit, I'm not sure I'd disagree.

  • #78
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    ...I said stock penal stats are fine, if want to finesse their vet 3 stats a bit, I'm not sure I'd disagree.

    You are entitled to you opinion (and the problem starts at vet 1 not 3, at 3 it is simply ridiculous) as Relic is to think that Penals currently overperfom, have a nice...

  • #79
    3 years ago

    After some testing I agree with vipper, even when stock their dps is actually very good at all ranges (== too good). Maybe a slight nerf to their longrange accuracy and vet accuracy along with price reduction to 270mp could work.

  • #80
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @newshatterhand said:
    After some testing I agree with vipper,..

    Finally someone who actually test things...Good work.

    nerf to their longrange accuracy...

    One could actually turn them into long range infantry but then they would have to use bolt action rifles and/or lmgs lose the satchel charge and ourah and have their mid and close DPs reduced significantly...

  • #81
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,089

    I've tested it. I just understand how the different factions are designed, how the units are designed and the roles they fill, and how that interacts with the game as a whole.

    More expensive dedicated AI unit in a dedicated tier vs cheaper Generalist unit in a generalist tier = victory for dedicated unit. Makes sense to anyone who understands what balance is.

  • #82
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @Lazarus said:
    I've tested it. I just understand how the different factions are designed, how the units are designed and the roles they fill, and how that interacts with the game as a whole.

    More expensive dedicated AI unit in a dedicated tier vs cheaper Generalist unit in a generalist tier = victory for dedicated unit. Makes sense to anyone who understands what balance is.

    Only you understand it wrong because you did not understand the patch notes I have quoted.

    Shock troops are dedicated AI unit that will lose to Grenadiers what you call "cheaper Generalist" (and Relic describes as "Intended to excel at long range Highest long range damage output for its tier") if they engage them far...

    Unit are not designed to be good at all ranges, they have weakness and strengths...

  • #83
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,089

    @Vipper said:

    @Lazarus said:
    I've tested it. I just understand how the different factions are designed, how the units are designed and the roles they fill, and how that interacts with the game as a whole.

    More expensive dedicated AI unit in a dedicated tier vs cheaper Generalist unit in a generalist tier = victory for dedicated unit. Makes sense to anyone who understands what balance is.

    Only you understand it wrong because you did not understand the patch notes I have quoted.

    Shock troops are dedicated AI unit that will lose to Grenadiers what you call "cheaper Generalist" (and Relic describes as "Intended to excel at long range Highest long range damage output for its tier") if they engage them far...

    I understand the out of date patch notes that are no longer relevant to the current state of balance that you have quoted. Try finding something like that after the Penal rebalance and then we'll talk.

    For shocks to lose against grens, you need to AFK for about 3 minutes. They have no long/mid DPS because their short DPS is insane and it's laughably easy for them to close in. I've explained that to you already. Get with the program.

  • #84
    3 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,991
    edited October 2016
    Lazarus, it's not that Penals are beating Grenadiers, that's fair game. It's that they beat them at all ranges. That is not what is intended. Just about every other unit in the game have certain ranges at which they ought to be used for them to work. Penals don't really have that currently as they are proficient at all ranges to the point that they perform equally to units that should excel at long range because the latter fail to be good at anything else. That's the problem you fail to see completely. Penals are good at every range and that's not good. If you have a Grenadier Squad, which can't do much except long range combat, get destroyed at a long range fight by a Penals squad which is deadly close, mid and far, something has gone awry.
  • #85
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @Lazarus said:
    I understand the out of date patch notes that are no longer relevant to the current state of balance that you have quoted. Try finding something like that after the Penal rebalance and then we'll talk.

    Patch notes are dead relevant because they ARE DESIGN INTENT and not referring only to specific patch.

    Relic has clearly stated that they want infantry units to be good a specific ranges and not in all ranges so that relative positioning is important, and the rule applies to most units.

    Relic seem to think that Penals are over performing.

    In addition it obvious that it far more interesting and better design when players can use the strengths of their infantry units and weakness of enemy infantry units to for the best result.

    They (Shocks) have no long/mid DPS because their short DPS is insane...

    So make Penal the same way to have a range where their DPS is very good and two other ranges where DPS is below average...

    Now you can continue repeating your mantra "a more expensive unit should beat a cheaper unit in all ranges" as many times as you wish you are entitled to your opinion after all. The fact remains that this type of design makes the game less interesting.
    Have a nice day.

  • #86
    3 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,058

    300 mp unit beats 240 mp unit. What did i missed?

  • #87
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @Pastulio said:
    300 mp unit beats 240 mp unit. What did i missed?

    3 pages of a debate...

  • #88
    3 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,058
    edited October 2016

    @Vipper said:

    @Pastulio said:
    300 mp unit beats 240 mp unit. What did i missed?

    3 pages of a debate...

    3 boring pages of nonsence.

    300 MP beat 240 MP.
    Let's cry that 400 mp Obers kill 240 mp conscripts. Or 440 MP Falls kill 330 mp Gurads.

    How that any different? The difference is that you used to fight with useless conscripts and few doctrinal infantry. Now when Sovs got infantry that fight back, you clam they OP. Maxisms nerfed to groud, lets nerf T1 too. Because insted of using useless maxim people switched to T-1.

    It's OP to be usefull if it not for Axis. That's whole point.

  • #89
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @Pastulio said:
    3 boring pages of nonsence.

    There is little point debating with someone who is not respectful

    ..300 MP beat 240 MP.

    ...

    How that any different?...

    You are argument is simply flawed because riflemen a 280 MP unit does not beat Gren (240) and VolksGrenadier (250) at all ranges, they actually lose at far range.

    And conscripts a 240 MP win against VG 250 MP at close to mid...

    Pls if you want to be a part of this debate read and understand what has already been said and be more respectful...

  • #90
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,089

    @Vipper said:
    Patch notes are dead relevant because they ARE DESIGN INTENT and not referring only to specific patch.

    I'm getting tired of you being wrong. They're out of date notes. Or do you believe AI Partisans are still designed as long range units because of the changes we made to their LMG profile 2 years ago (post #35 if you're looking for it)? Why don't AI Partisans beat ANYTHING at long range then? That's the design intent. Relic wrote it. So it must be unchanging gospel as given to us by Christ himself, correct? Or could it be that reaching back to old, dead, irrelevant, no longer used, patch notes for a no-longer-existent version of the game is an absolutely garbage way to try and argue a point?

    But hell. Lets not extend logic that far. Lets do something really basic. Lets read the WHOLE Grenadier entry from the post YOU cited as evidence.

    Grenadiers
    Intended to excel at long range
    Highest long range damage output for its tier
    Abilities load out geared towards long range combat
    Vulnerable at short range to all other unit types
    Versus Conscripts
    Advantaged at long ranges
    Even at mid ranges
    Disadvantaged at short ranges
    Versus Riflemen
    Slightly disadvantaged at long ranges
    Disadvantaged at mid ranges
    Disadvantaged at short ranges

    Holy shit would you look at that, slight disadvantage at long ranges? Disadvantage? As in - won't win at long range? There we have it. Relic - in the post you submitted as evidence, saying that Grenadiers can lose not just to another unit in that tier, but another unit WEILDING THE CARBINE WEAPON PROFILE.

    Congratulations. You argued yourself in to a corner that has nowhere for you to run but out.

  • #91
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @Lazarus said:
    Slightly disadvantaged at long ranges

    ...
    Since you now you seem to agree to the relevance of the patch notes try Penal vs Grenadier long range and you will find out that they have a HUGE advantage over them not a silty one.

    The Refilemen vsGrenadier balance is about right (until a dual LMG kick in) and it would be fine if Penal costed 280 did similar to Reflimen and did not get crazy accuracy bonuses with vet and lost to Pgs at mid as Riflemen do...

    Try testing Grenadier vs riflemen far and heavy cover and you will see the grenadier actually beat them..

    Now try the same with Penal and you will see they win by land slight...

    Or do you believe AI Partisans are still designed as long range units because of the changes we made to their LMG profile 2 years ago... Why don't AI Partisans beat ANYTHING at long range then

    Although quite irrelevant it is an indication of your knowledge of the game...AI partisan stopped spawning with LMGs several patches ago...since the spwan with smgs the perform as they should good at sort range, bad at long range (although they are too cost efficient since partisan are the only spawning unit that does not pay a premium)....

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