[SOV] [1V1] Penals, Guards and Guard motor coordinated tactics

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  • #122
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    There is an issue with ourah and Molotov AT grenades.

    Imo Ourah should not be an ability available to a mainline infantry like conscripts and that creates a problem because molotovs and AT grenades are sort rang weapons.

    By moving Ourah and molotovs to Penals one can then let conscripts keep AT grenades but increase their range a bit. Not having AT grenades on mainlines infantry can prove problematic as it happens for UKF and can leave your troops open to tank crushing.

    On the other hand ourah can be made to scale with veterancy to better be balance as an ability. It can increase target size at Vet 0 or even increase suppression and start losing the debuffs and gain buff with vetting.

  • #123
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588
    edited October 2016

    Penals with flamethrowers are too strong. Also the whole Guard Motor doctrine is easy mode for russians. Penal -> Penal -> Guards -> Guards start is so easy. You are able to fight aggressively, gain a lot of veterancy and CP with flamethrowers. Axis will keep bleeding against you. If OST goes for 222 you can kill it with your Guards, while they provide you additional AI too.

    In the end you can choose between a T70 or skip that if you have mapcontrol and float in fuel. Go directly for T34/85, and close the deal. You will have enough munition for mark target and button. Axis can only win this if the soviet player is not aggressive enough.

  • #124
    2 years ago

    If what you mean by aggressive, is pushing. Then all OST has to do is defend which is where they excel. Put down an mg bunker, or mg42s with pioneer 20 range vision and you can fend off penals no problem. guard are only good at defending against a 222. They are not good at PUSHING a 222. They have a long lock on time, unlike like zooks and shreks with homing rockets with no aim time

    RiCE, you are an axis supremecist. Again, every thread i've ever seen you comment on is Allies OP. I bet you wish it was vanilla release where PGs and Grens just walk over everyone instant win.

  • #125
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Yeah, how about using MG-42's, which lock down blobs almost instantly. you know, the mg with massive-instant supression, anti armor ability, and a cone of fire almost 180 degrees.

  • #126
    2 years ago

    Penals feel strong and a bit gimicky at times, but cons and tier 2 are kinda bad so you need the penals performing really well. The counter for ost is indeed having mg42 to supress penals such that your grens do not get overrun. And as soviets you really need to try and play around the mg42 if you want to win and you do not have a suppression platform that could do mg42s role like ost doesn't have a squad like penals. So in that sense the gameplay is kinda fair and nicely asymmetrically balanced. Still I think nerfing penals somewhat and buffing cons and or tier 2 would be nice so soviet is not super depandant on 1 unit and ost gets a bit easier time if it manages to keep penals at a distance by good squad placement.

  • #127
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    I too think it'd be nice for soviets to not be completely dependent on 1 unit. Conscripts have been useless for years so they were dependent on maxims when penals were garbage, and now are dependent on penals cause maxims are trash. In the interim when penals still sucked and maxims got uber-nerfed, they were basically unplayable as they had not infantry game to speak of.

  • #128
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    I still think knocking them to 220 would help alot (cheap enough to support)
  • #129
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    The problem is that's not their issue, cons issue is that their molotovs take too long to through making them essentially useles, their vet ability is useless, and their their sidegrades are way too expensive in terms of fuel. Knocking less than 10% off their MP cost wouldn't fix any of that.

  • #130
    2 years ago

    Penals + guards into 120 mortar its a very strong combinations, but its a lot of MP, its totally can be MP bleed. Try use mg right, use you squads together, try insulation his squad 2>1. Early game will be like chess, try cutoff him. Before he have a lot of guards use 222 and think what you do and how you do, blob if needed, use 251 to reinforce at the battle, at least you can try flame halftruck rush.

  • #131
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @vasa171960 said:
    Penals + guards into 120 mortar its a very strong combinations, but its a lot of MP, its totally can be MP bleed...

    Merge makes bleed allot less severe...
    Another reason why Penals over perform...

  • #132
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Merge does reduce the bleed but also makes them easier to push off because of the higher rec acc
  • #133
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Merge makes assault squads like penals and esp shocks much, much weaker, because they get conscript defensive stats, which are garbage.

  • #134
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    Merge makes assault squads like penals and esp shocks much, much weaker, because they get conscript defensive stats, which are garbage.

    We are talking about Penal and Guard here not Shock troops. Do you actually know what the difference is target size is between Guards/Penals and conscripts?

  • #135
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,034

    At Penals with vet 3? I think it's 0.4, as in 40%. That's kind of a big deal.

  • #136
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @Lazarus said:
    At Penals with vet 3? I think it's 0.4, as in 40%. That's kind of a big deal.

    Pls check your stats before posting...
    Do you know the vet bonuses of Penals? Do you know how merge actually works?

  • #137
    2 years ago
    VutherVuther Posts: 2,129

    Merging Scripts into Penals should make the "new" Penals start at 1.07 target size which is then multiplied by veterancy bonuses.

  • #138
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,034
    edited October 2016

    @Vuther said:
    Merging Scripts into Penals should make the "new" Penals start at 1.07 target size which is then multiplied by veterancy bonuses.

    Allegedly the con model gets none of the Penals defensive vet. Only their offensive vet.

    Allegedly.

    @Vipper You're right. Silly me. It's 0.3. As in, 30%. What a massive bonus that is for Penals.

  • #139
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Penals only get a -23%recc acc at vet 3 (and 3% per casualty at vet 1) and start with a target size of 1 meaning they dont get terribly durable terribly fast... Cons have a size of 1.087, which means they ARE going to get hit easier, and continue to do so. Thats not to say that merge isnt worth it, it is, but what it saves you per model it also hurts you by speeding up how fast you need to do it again.
  • #140
    2 years ago
    moremegamoremega REDWOOD CITY CA USAPosts: 229

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    No, sorry @vipper not end of story.
    Versatility comes at a cost, penals are not the Soviet equipment to pgrens because pgrens are multi purpose,they CAN be AI byt they can also be incredibly AT. No matter what you are facing, no matter what commander you chose, no matter how many munitions you have saved up your penals will only ever provide AI. Pgrens can adapt, penals can not.

    As for cons being mainline, they are and they are not. When compared to other mainline cons are trash. They are supposed to be mostly replaced and late game they offer little aside from a snare. They get nothing core to encourage their use, hell the current state of the molitov even DISCOURAGES use. They are more like ostroppen or RE than actual mainline troops. What they lack in combat potential however they make up for in utility, they are a support unit...as well as a mainline. But they cannot hold their own past vanilla grens, and even that matchup is subject to rng.

    The problem with granting pgrens too much AI is that that would snowball. If they could provide the punch that penals do and then transition into AT as needed it would be incredibly broken. Soviet need to pick a commander just to have access to light AT, which cant even snap shoot, it takes what feels lije eons for that ptrs to finally start firing (making them subject to pushing)


    And finally yea, guards can fight infantry and armour at the same time, but not well and not quickly. They are more defensive than any other hand held AT in the game, there is no burst damage, there wont knock out nice chunks of health frontally, thry can permanently lose access to their AT.... they will counter light vehcles alright and the odd afk players medium but they arnt the calibre of AT as even boys tommies, who can snare their own meat and kill it ontop of passive vehcle detection and no additional upgrades.

    I liked when you said vanilla grens b/c that brings to light what COH2 has become after 2 faction expansions that broke the balancing in this game long before relic abandoned this community; how long has it been since the last patch?!... yup, crickets. Relic should have never changed the two faction system. The balancing was perfect before this happened and has been so volatile after the fact. I can understand the need to keep the game fresh, but you can do that by adding dlc, better graphic options, and staying true to the originality of the title which was the eastern front.

  • #141
    2 years ago

    What merge mean, coz translater dont know waht is it ?

  • #142
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @Lazarus said:
    Cons have a size of 1.087, which means they ARE going to get hit easier, and continue to do so. Thats not to say that merge isnt worth it, it is, but what it saves you per model it also hurts you by speeding up how fast you need to do it again.

    The cost to reinforce a Penal entity is 25 and Guard entity 27.5 the cost of conscript entity is 20 that translates to saving
    125% mp with merge for Penals and 137.5% with Gaurds. Since the target size is 108,7% you get 16,3% bonus with Penal and 28.8% with Guards.

    For comparison a grenadier model has a reinforcement cost of 30 and the same pop cap meaning that if you are merging your enemy has to kill 3 Penal/conscript entities for every 2 he loses just to keep even.
    Even worse is you take PGs with 28% upkeep and 34 reinforcement cost.

    Pop is actually another area where Penal overperform since they have the same Pop as grenadier/VG while being far superior.

    @Lazarus said:
    Allegedly the con model gets none of the Penals defensive vet. Only their offensive vet.

    @Vipper You're right. Silly me. It's 0.3. As in, 30%. What a massive bonus that is for Penals.

    I have not see any report that "allegedly" that happens...As far as I know merge troops loose the conscripts vet bonuses, retain there target size, get their target weapon and all vet bonuses.

    Your stat are wrong once more, as Vuther pointed out it is *0,77 target size which actually not massive compared to what conscript get which is *0,60 target size as a vet bonus.

  • #143
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,034

    @Vipper said:
    I have not see any report that "allegedly" that happens...As far as I know merge troops loose the conscripts vet bonuses, retain there target size, get their target weapon and all vet bonuses.

    I haven't physically seen China, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

  • #144
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @Lazarus said:
    I haven't physically seen China, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

    Have you actually seen any post that claims that merged conscripts do not get defensive bonuses or is that a figment of your imagination? Can you pls check your fact before posting?

  • #145
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Im confused are we arguing that cons get the offencive vet that penals are centered around or the defensive vet that cons get? Either way you have a model who can shoot.. Or get shot... Not both (or IS it both?!??!? Nerf merge? Thats new...)
  • #146
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,991
    edited October 2016
    Guys, would you mind not being so utterly childish? All of us here work towards a common goal: the betterment of the axis factions. So stop being such an Enttäuschung to the Vaterland! Seriously. You are better than "I know what you are, but what am I?" Tactics of argumentation.

    Also, ner merge sounds great. Perhaps always destroy the con squad in the process... :P
  • #147
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited October 2016

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Nerf merge? Thats new...

    If one want to add to debate one should probably follow it before doing so.
    An argument was made that using Penal and conscripts make the player bleed man power, I simply pointed out that merge make that bleed less severe.
    The rest is people posting with out actually checking facts...

  • #148
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Hingie, is that a joke? Or are you being an axis fanboy? I really can't tell ,honest question.

  • #149
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,991
    Gut. Zen mein Plan is working sehr gut. Stop sinking about it mein kleiner friend.
  • #150
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    Ok, joking, just wanted to check.

  • #151
    2 years ago

    @Trump2016 said:

    @Vipper said:

    @Lazarus said:
    I haven't physically seen China, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

    Have you actually seen any post that claims that merged conscripts do not get defensive bonuses or is that a figment of your imagination? Can you pls check your fact before posting?

    Imperial Dane said merged cons will still use cons stats such as the received accuracy of cons. I trust Dane.

    Lol Dane was the one who said that Rear Echelons' demo charges should be replaced with a 4 thompson upgrade. Funny thing is, Rear Echs dont even have demo charges.

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