[SOV] [1V1] Penals, Guards and Guard motor coordinated tactics

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  • #152
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017
    @captainjordy so what? You've never called anything ever the wrong name? He clearly meant Assault Engineers. That doesn't discredit his other information at all. I also remember he wasn't the only one saying it.
  • #153
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,795
    Merge tranfers the model, target size is associated with the model, as is armour, but weapons float around on a squad basis. You can test this by merging cons into something like guards, generally your con models will drop before the guard models (this is however subject to rng
  • #154
    2 years ago

    @Trump2016 написал:

    @Vipper said:

    @vasa171960 said:
    Penals + guards into 120 mortar its a very strong combinations, but its a lot of MP, its totally can be MP bleed...

    Merge makes bleed allot less severe...
    Another reason why Penals over perform...

    If u use cons to merge with penals, do the merged cons get svt rifles?

    This @
    Merge tranfers the model, target size is associated with the model, as is armour, but weapons float around on a squad basis. You can test this by merging cons into something like guards, generally your con models will drop before the guard models (this is however subject to [email protected]

  • #155
    2 years ago

    Why aren't you building two MG42 vs. THREE Penals?!

  • #156
    2 years ago

    @whatd0thlife said:
    Why aren't you building two MG42 vs. THREE Penals?!

    +10000000000000000000000 lol

  • #157
    2 years ago

    I think this is an interesting topic. I've been reading along since this topic started, but haven't said anything because I'm conflicted.

    I don't feel like penals over perform against axis factions. I think the axis has plenty of ways to deal with it, many of which were pointed out previously. One thing that I dont think was mentioned is the fact that Ost still have an incredibly effective mortar that causes plenty of damage to the penals as long as you can hold them up for a moment with an HMG or grens acting as a distraction. Also the predominace of penals gives the flame halftrack more of a purpose, and helps it be more successful.

    Then OKW seems to be effective at dealing with them once they get their stg upgrade for Volks especially because it is easier to field a larger number of Volks more quickly than penals. I do think that OKW has a more difficult time, but they are also not helpless. I mean if you are even moderately ahead in fuel and get a luchs out first, then you can really punish a penal spammer, because it may just force them to tech to get an AT gun instead. which gives your luchs more time to out maneuver your enemy and cause bleed (assuming the map has enough space to do so) before enemy armor shows up.

    All of that being said I do feel like something should change. I personally love my conscripts. even in the worst days of maxim spam I would always prefer to get more conscripts simply because of the maneuverability and versatility, and their potential with the ppsh upgrade. But personally, recently I've been having a hard time justify playing with so many conscripts because penals work SO well. typically I can only really justify one conscript that i replace if it is killed and two or three penals over the course of the game. I would like to do the opposite but it seems like the success ratio lays heavily in the games that I use more penals than conscripts.

    I guess overall I would be happy with something changing to make penals a little weaker in one range or all over, but I would need to see a change with conscripts and maybe maxims to compensate. I do like the ideas suggested of 220mp conscripts and i believe going back to 240mp maxims was suggested in another discussion on the forums. That alone would probably warrant a slightly weaker penal squad.

  • #158
    2 years ago

    Penals need a rethink. They beat German stock infantry in the first minutes at all ranges, AND are cheaper to be reinforced at 25, compared to 30/model for the Grens and Sturmpios. All of this makes it an obvious choice early game since you will both beat **and **bleed out the Axis. Somethings gotta give to force the SOV player not to rely on spamming them but to combine them with Cons, Snipers and Engineers .

    The way I see it, Cons are the SOVs player field presence unit with low DPS, but high resilience with Vet and Sandbags, they are the anvil while Penals are the hammer. There is also the historic flavour of Penals being... well, more sacrificable units hell bent on making as much damage possible. So correspondigly, increase their base received accuracy to 1,1 from 1, so you can rely on them to make damage, even at all ranges, but take damage also in return so stand off fights would still disfavour them. You will need Conscripts to support them, draw fire away otherwise you will bleed heavily.

  • #159
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,593

    @Vipper said:

    @MCMartel said:
    Currently, cons are useless for anything but snares, merge, and back-capping, so Penals are the only viable fighting infantry, if they get nerfed, soviets basically fall apart as a faction.

    Soviet did just fine without Penals over-performing so they will not fall apart..

    There are some people who actually do enjoy being able to not go straight for maxim spam.
    Weakening penals will lead to just that-more maxim spam, because nothing else will be viable-especially with your suggestions.

    Now maxims are garbage and borderline unusable,...

    Why did you claim that? maxim have not been touched for several patches...

    And still will be spammed, if other units are even worse.

    so soviet players need to lean on penals...

    No they do not, Penal simply over-perform and that is why people spam them, because they get more than what they pay for...

    Penals are AI specialists who cost 300mp.
    HOW they over perform? Because they kill infantry? That is their sole role, they don't have AT, they don't have utility, no nades(when was last time you've killed anything with satchel that wasn't HMG42 that just entered the building you happened to be next to and aware?

    If you nerf penals, you need to redesign the entire soviet infantry lineup.

    I actually made 2 suggestions:
    One is to properly design Penals so that their stat , abilities vet bonuses fit a specific range/role and that does not necessarily mean that they should be nerfed at that range. They could even get a buff at that specific range...

    The other one was to actually redesign the Soviet faction...
    Having one unit over-perform to feel the gap of other units under-performance is actually bad design since it promotes spamming specific units...

    But this is not a thread about conscripts so lest try to leave them out it.

    Penals just got redesign into all-range glass cannon AI specialists.
    Soviets also got redesign into what they are now.
    The chances of them getting another one are equal to release of Half Life 3 and Warcraft 4 for this x-mass.

  • #160
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588

    @Katitof said:
    Penals just got redesign into all-range glass cannon AI specialists.

    There is still plenty of space to balance them between useless and OP. Right now they are OP with their flamethrowers. The higher price wont make everything legit. I am not against the aggressive soviet opening, but Penals with the flamethrower are too strong...

  • #161
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,722
    edited November 2016

    @Katitof said:
    There are some people who actually do enjoy being able to not go straight for maxim spam.

    And there are people who would like to be able to use infantry when they play WER and not have to mg42->222

    Weakening penals will lead to just that-more maxim spam, because nothing else will be viable-especially with your suggestions.

    And keeping Penal as they are will simply continue the Penal/Guard Blob

    Penals just got redesign into all-range glass cannon AI specialists.

    Penals have more EHP than most unit of their tier they are not glass cannon.
    The term "AI specialist" is quite vague there are plenty of units with AI an no AT snare but you don't seem them being OP because they luck a snare...

    If elite infantries are supposed to hit the field that early, then they should be available to all factions.
    One can improve their current overperformance by have them start with mosin 6 and allow 4 SVT/90 MU locked behind T3

  • #162
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    1. Wehr can and should use infantry, what's your problem?
    2. They are AI only with no AT, no snare, no utility like flares/smoke/healing, just AI, that's it. And they cost 300 and go with a tier that locks off all AT that's pretty darned specialized.
    3. 6 mosins would make them unusable. A 6 mosin penal squad would be worth 220, maybe 240. 6 mosins are garbage, see how conscripts underperform constantly, performing worse than every other base infantry. The only thing they need a tweak with is their vet 3 scaling, otherwise they're fine. Or should a 240 mp unit with loads of versatility and utility outclass a 300 mp specialist unit?
  • #163
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,722
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    2. They are AI only with no AT, no snare, no utility like flares/smoke/healing, just AI, that's it. And they cost 300 and go with a tier that locks off all AT that's pretty darned specialized.

    You are confusing faction design with balance, the fact that T1 does not provide AT solution does not mean that Soviet are locked of At or that is reason for Penal to be OP. If there was any truth in that Soviet sniper should also be OP and so should M3...
    The luck of flares, smoke and healing does not mean that they should be OP either, they still have an OP 1 vet ability an great Vet ability and a flamer upgrade. As for the cost simply lower it when the DPS is lowered.
    If in your opinion infantries like Penal should be available that early in the game simply make them available to all factions.

    .6 mosins are garbage, see how conscripts underperform constantly, performing worse than every other base infantry.

    Guards use Mosins also and they are fine. In addition they would still be able get the SVT simply later.

    In the end of they I have no idea why you continuing repeating the same thing over and over. Penals are OP and they will probably be nerfed, instead of refusing that you should be be trying to come up with ideas of how Penal can remain useful.

  • #164
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    1. No, I am not. I am saying that they are AI only because they deal with AI not AT or utility.
    2. Guards have AT rifles and an LMG, that's vastly different.
    3. You keep saying the same thing as well and demanding you're right, and then criticize me for doing the same thing, pot, kettle, black.
  • #165
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,722

    @MCMartel said:
    1. No, I am not. I am saying that they are AI only because they deal with AI not AT or utility.

    Once more as a number of other units that are not OP, and here is where you bring in T1, and have to repeat what I said in my previous post and circle can go on...

    1. Guards have AT rifles and an LMG, that's vastly different.

    Guards Mosin are simply better than Conscript Mosin that is all, and Guards do not have an LMG they have have a weapon upgrade that cost MU and gives them 2 DPs very similar to what I proposed for Penals...

    1. You keep saying the same thing as well and demanding you're right, and then criticize me for doing the same thing, pot, kettle, black.

    Well the difference here is that I am not the only one saying that Penals are OP it is Relic who also says the same thing.
    And I have no problem to agree with you to disagree....

  • #166
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017
    @Vipper you mean there is no difference, because @MCMartel isn't the only one saying theyre fine either. Or did you forget the 4 or 5 pages where I told you almost the exact same thing MCM has?
  • #167
    2 years ago

    I would be fine with Penals if they had a received accuracy penalty...but it is quite mindless to just send them against Volks and Grens who have no chance at beating them in most circumstances. They would be the Hydralisks of COH2, very high damage, low durability. I mean they are suicide squads but they play like elite infantry at that portion in the game compared to their counterparts.

    Their only serious weakness is rushed 222's or Luchs. That is about it. They can clear out MGs from buildings, they can outmaneuver mortars, snipers can't kill enough of them or be counter sniped, when paired with the Scout Car they just run over everything Axis has until they can field a vehicle to stop them. Which brings us full circle to Sovs just calling in a Guard squad immediately to deal with them.

    It's risky but unless you counter it perfectly it's a very solid strategy especially for a commander like Guards Motor which compliments it very well because you have indirect fire call in mortar, KILL THIS TANK CLICK TO WIN, Guards, vehicle self repair and the T-34/85.

    I mean it has very few drawbacks besides no direct off-map but with that line-up, who needs one?

  • #168
    2 years ago
    They are supposed to be expendable infantry but at the moment they behave like a super early game elite infantry and thats the problem. I just tought about another way to fix this problem, make them more like osttruppen but instead of a defensive boost give them 3 PPSh-41 and the molotov (still make the satchel charge a commander ability) and move conscripts with an PTRS anti-tank rifle upgrade to tiet 1, this way tier 1 no longer lacks a armored car counter and penals function more like the expendable criminals that they are supposed to be! :D
  • #169
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588

    Their flamethrower upgrade is what cause most of the trouble. It has no restriction at all. You build a penal, reach 60MU and give them a flamethrower. The problem is their flamethrower kills super fast. Giving flame for 6 men squads was never a good idea.

    Once they received their flamers, they will kill any early game infantry axis can send against them. Also they gain tons of veterancy, so usually they reach vet2-vet3 pretty fast. Eventually they become pretty viable even in late game with all the accuracy bonus + reduced received accuracy bonus. The best chance you have if you keep your distance, constantly fighting long range with volks and grens, and dont use covers against flamethrower. Also avoid buildings, because those stuff pretty much insta wipe garrisoned infantry.

    Fast 222 is not viable against Guards Motor. Neither do 444. Guards just tear them apart, and its over. Yesterday two player tried fast 222 against me, both dropped out after my guards eat them.

    Penals with their flamethrowers are OP, and with Guards Motor doctrine its easy mode for soviets. No matter how much they cost... they are ruining early game.

    • I would change their flamethrower to any other weapon upgrade that cause predictable performance.
    • Also reduce their accuracy bonuses with veterancy. Right now they receive 30% accuracy on vet2 and another 30% on vet3
    • Also adjust their veterancy gain speed, because they reach vet2 extremely fast with their flamers now.
  • #170
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    They're not supposed to be expendable, they're supposed to be soviet elite infantry, the thing literally every other faction except soviets had, infantry that weren't garbage. The flame throwers aren't OP at all, use MG's and Grens with mg42's and you'll mow them down, unless you just want 240mp squads with high versaility to defeat specialized 300mp squads all the time?

  • #171
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,722

    @MCMartel said:
    They're not supposed to be expendable, they're supposed to be soviet elite infantry, the thing literally every other faction except soviets had, infantry that weren't garbage...

    Soviets have a wide selection of Elite infantry that are doctrinal and most doctrines have one...

  • #172
    2 years ago
    Not picking a certain doctrine means shooting yourself in the face - thats the way it should be. Make the soviet faction great again! I mean if the only viable strategy isnt spamming maxims its not the way the soviet are supposed to be
  • #173
    2 years ago
    AceOfTitaniumAceOfTita… Posts: 195
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    They're not supposed to be expendable, they're supposed to be soviet elite infantry

    I quote from the in game hud two descriptions for the penals:
    "Penal battalion must succeed in their assaults or die trying" <- expendable right there
    "Independent thinkers, vicious criminals, and hardened troops serving time for minor offenses are given a chance to redeem themselves through blood--theirs or the enemy's" <-expendable too
    And before anyone says "but it says they are hardened troops so penals must be elite infantry" no, I think the developers want to say that back in war some commissars/officers were demoted for "treason" and put in these penal units along side killers and criminals.

  • #174
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    1. Vipper, that's BS, when other armies don't have something people whine about how it needs to be standard, but suddenly soviets out to be penalized exclusively for not getting the right supply drops? That's ridiculous
    2. Ace, that's a historical argument, which have no place on this board. They're stats/cost show they're supposed to be elite infantry.
  • #175
    2 years ago

    Well the game is based on history, if you go see the dev vid diaries when the western front armies and brit forces dlc's came out they talked about history and how they wanted to transmit that feeling through units or commander abilities.

    @MCMartel said:
    they're supposed to be soviet elite infantry, the thing literally every other faction except soviets had, infantry that weren't garbage.

    People say pgrens are elite but they, like penals, shouldnt be elite infantry, they should be mechanized infantry and they are in a light vehicle tier, vehicles that they should complement. Usf doesnt have elite infantry too, they shouldnt at least and neither do brits. Beware I am talking army only no commanders included!
    In reallity only okw have the obersoldaten that are veteran soldiers and I guess you can call them elite infantry.

    But if you really want to give elite infantry to soviets you will need to move penals to a commander and move guards to tier 1, that way you would have elite infantry.

  • #176
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    riflemen and IS are both regular and elite infantry depending on upgrades. PZgrens are elite infantry.

  • #177
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,722
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    riflemen and IS are both regular and elite infantry depending on upgrades. PZgrens are elite infantry.

    Since you come up with the rules and names is rather difficult to have any sort of meaningful debate.

    If you want to use commonly used terms with different meaning you have to define the meaning you are using term...

    According to the common use of term "elite" neither Riflemen no IS are elite infantry regardless of weapon you buy for them.
    "Elite infantry" is used to units like Obers, Shocks, Commandos....

  • #178
    2 years ago
    AceOfTitaniumAceOfTita… Posts: 195
    edited November 2016

    @MCMartel said:
    riflemen and IS are both regular and elite infantry depending on upgrades. PZgrens are elite infantry.

    This makes no sense to me, just because infantry sections have a "on cover boost" they become an elite infantry? and rifles arent elite, they just over performe because they can equip 2 bazookas or BARs and adding the veterancy makes them lethal.
    By your logic relic should make every infantry elite.

  • #179
    2 years ago
    AceOfTitaniumAceOfTita… Posts: 195
    edited November 2016

    @Vipper said:
    According to the common use of term "elite" neither Riflemen no IS are elite infantry regardless of weapon you buy for them.
    "Elite infantry" is used to units like Obers, Shocks, Commandos....

    That makes more sense!
    Basically apart from obers all elite infantry should come from commanders.

  • #180
    2 years ago

    "They are supposed to be expendable infantry but at the moment they behave like a super early game elite infantry and thats the problem."

    Agreed. They really do, there is no ifs, ands, or buts, about it. It is their flamethrower. It's sad how people are just seeing this now though lol. I believe, (this is me talking) the philosophy of a faction like the soviets...with their platoon sized squads, should be about survivability, not firepower. Penals are an example of both these factors combined. Which they should not have. They really do work too effectively at all ranges.

    Back when i first downloaded coh2 on steam when it was first released, i was like "A 6man squad with a flamethrower? That's kinda op bruh"

  • #181
    2 years ago
    VutherVuther Posts: 2,129

    @AceOfTitanium said:
    They are supposed to be expendable infantry but at the moment they behave like a super early game elite infantry and thats the problem.

    The description tells hateful lies. That concept isn't really workable in Conscripts' current state, anyway.

    The Panzerfusiliers' G43 upgrade also claims it's good at long-range while it only improves DPS at max-range by a tiny portion and over doubles close-range DPS :/

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