[Wehr] Rework for their Mainline Infantry.
Farra13
Posts: 647
I've seen alot of discussion over the last few months about the dire state of Ostheer's infantry in comparison to their opponents.
Grens and P-Grens just don't cut it when facing Riflemen, Inf Secs, penals etc. Despite having access to the most robust and well equipped support weapons that they fight alongside, they tend to melt in the face of even light resistance. This is likely due to the fact that the faction hasn't been touched since the release of both the Western factions and the Brits.
One recurring theme has been the call for an elite infantry in their t4, but i don't think it should be a form of hardened veterans like the knight cross holders from vanilla coh, as no one wants to see ober clones for the wehr.
My suggestion would be, and keep in mind this is working within the current resources of the game.
Grenadiers are reworked into a defensive line infantry, they recieve both accuracy and weapon cooldown when in cover like infantry sections do. They remain as a four man squad with adjustments to the poor spacing that cause so many wipes, maybe the addition of a small amount of armour like they had on release, this compensates the fact that they only have four models with eighty health, against the more robust OKW volks, rifles and other mainline infantry who use five or six men per squad.
Weapon Upgrades. They keep their mg42 upgrade, rifle grenade and panzerfaust. But they lose the medkit vet ability to be replaced with an unlock from their loadout. I then would suggest, and here is the idea that will cause much controversy, give them the ability to upgrade with the dual Panzershreks (they would lose the panzerfaust as a snare upon finishing equipping the panzershreks), gaining the vet ability to perhaps lay tellers or detect tanks, against a maybe a light suppresion ability that the mg could provide.
Their design nature then forces them to fight from static cover or they won't have the accuracy or weapon cooldown to be truly effective, this prevents people blobbing them into a reworked volkshrek horde.
Assualt Grenadiers Next I would transfer the P-grens to t3, something I'm sure many will disagree or argue against. Instead T2 would recieve the assualt grenadiers, removing them from the call in from the mechanized commander, ( both the unit and commander sorely needing reworking.)
Reworked Ass-Grens. WIth the appropriate buffs, forming them into a four man squad with mp40, they would have their model 24 and sprint, but their vet1 upgrade could be to neutralise and capture points at something like %50 or %33, vet 2 being weapon accuracy and recieved accuracy, and vet 3 providing a fifth man armed with an stg44, giving them the ability to survive into the late game.
This gives the Ostheer an offensive infantry that is best used to flank and then cap and hold a position while they reorganize their support weapons, eventually transferring into a five man squad that is more robust than the Grens and P-Grens in the late game and giving them a unit that is tough enough to survive the more powerful weapons and abilities of the late game that are used to cover essential vps or munia nd fuel points.
PanzerGrenadiers. And so, Panzergrenadiers are supposed to be the elite troops of the Wehrmacht, they were meant to be the best equipped and trained soldiers of the German army, tasked with spearheading assualts from their vehicles and working closely with the panzers to break enemy lines.
Reworked P-Grens. Therefore moving them to t3 or t4 would allow them to be buffed to a higher level and represent the elite infantry people are calling for, but instead of being another team of Obers and Falls, I would focus on their theme as being mechanized infantry. They could begin armed with Stg44 or perhaps kar98 with the choice to upgrade to 4 stg44's, access to bundle grenades and smoke, with the ability to give vehicles basic repairs, their vet1 could be somehthing like mark target to increase vehicle accuracy against units or perhaps a passive version that allows vehicles to hit targets they are focusing better.
Weapon Upgrades. Finally a weapon upgrade in the form of the Panzerbusche 39 at rifle (the weapon model already exisiting in the campaign), a high damage, high pen at rifle that could unlock the ability to eprhaps stun a tank or prevent turret rotation with a shot similar to the brit sniper. Then it would only require small tweaks in either armor or a fifth model to allow them scale well as the panzer grens already have a great vet system.
Panzergrandiers would be at their best when working alongside a vehicle as they follow the combined arms design Ostheer is based on. Though I am unsure that an increased squad size fits the theme, so how to increase their survivability is up to debate.
Of course i agree that my idea would not be a perfect design that everyone would agree on, and would also require alot of work to create, but it does fit with the axis theme of tiered infantry in comparison to the allies single mainline infatry that are upgraded throughout the game. Each of the 3 mainline infantry have a defined role, and the P-grens would be more fitting in the faction theme of working in tandem with the late game german armor.
Thank your for your time in reading this large wall of text.
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Comments
The main problem I see with wehr grens and pgrens is the fact that they only have 4 men squads the entire match, thats a problem because if a mortar kills 1 or 2 members you lose 25%/50% of that unit combat ability. So to fix this just move the bolster squad from brits to wehr hq and give brits squads +1 member at vet 3.
I disagree, Grens hold up fine. They could use better spacing for fewer wipes, and a better medic ability, but otherwise they do fine.
Why is there double equip on such already powerful infatry units in the first place...not enough "i win" buttons on the Allied side... eh
5 man squad, 260 MP, decrease price for reinforcement...better, more consistent rifle grenade or potato masher...fed up by allied rambo squads jsut ignoring incoming gren rifle fire... and then terminating them with bars, nuke grenaeds or bars...
Give grens and pgrens the bolster squad, it would help a lot the unit preservation.
Grens get zero respect from any Allied infantry. That gives you an idea of how awful they are. They can beat conscripts. But that is it. For a marginal price and SAME pop penalty you get better Sections, Penals, and Riflemen. It is absolutely crap of how terrible they are compared to Riflemen for essentially the same price and pop penalty, Riflemen even have a smaller reinforce cost.
Riflemen get smoke, nades, AT nade, BARs, Bazookas, 1919s whatever. Their price difference is a major problem and Grens largely serve just to keep light vehicles from completely making you their pretty little girlfriend and protecting MG42s, also to hold you over to afford Panzergrenadiers because they are just awful.
It's not like you even face conscripts hardly anymore because everyone is on the FOTM Penal/Guards fad so the whole argument "BUT GRENS > SCRIPTS!" is just bullshit. They need serious lovin.
And yes their Vet 1 ability is shit, and looking at sections healing themselves and all other units for the same price at Vet 0 is total bullshit too along with their fire rate increase in cover. They are just terrible to their WFA counterparts.
I would say Grens are pretty good, but everything else is too strong.
If riflemen keep their current stats with all their terminator vet and double LMG upgrades, i would say Grens on vet2 should be able to fire their LMG on the move.
But again, i would rather see some nerf for everyone else.
I wish they could give ostheer's engineers a 5th member late in the game. That would help with repairs, and they would be pretty good with a flamethrower.
If you're using grens properly they work out fine. In cover with their MG's and rifle grenades, they can easily out damage rifles are long range and PZgrens and Mg-42's can fend them off at short range. You seem to be insisting that they should be able to defeat riflemen at all ranges despite the fact that OST is supposed to work with support weapons and riflemen are far more expensive and supposed to be versatile. the only problem is that the USF mortar is too powerful so disrupts OST support weapons too easily.
I really do think that just nerfing the US mortar will fix most of this cause then OST can properly coordinate with support weapons.
Yes, grens should work at their best in unity with support weapons.
There is absolutely no reason for the usf to have a tier 0 mortar!
Rifleman can have smoke grenades, also usf have the M1 75mm pack howitzer, just give it a white phosphorus barrage to help rifleman clear buildings and why is the howitzer motor carriage (that is basically a artillery stuart) in tier 3?! Move it to tier 2 and give it a smoke barrage for the players that skip tier 1 and dont have the pack howitzer. DIVERSITY LOVE IT!
Oh look the L2P mantra AGAIN...
THEY DONT work and riflemen have non doctrinal smoke able to neuter both snipers and Mg 42s...BUT because Allies were somehow still having issue with Wehr they got teh mortar...
Riflemen are not expensive...especially in the long run...unless youu are a complete noob and keep feeding "GI joe" blob head on to wehr snipers... one squad at the time.
Riflemen are very expensive and require multiple fuel-intensive upgrades. Smoke doesn't neuter anything if you're using mg's right. I'm tired of everyone complaining about riflemen, what we need to change is the mortar, not the riflemen.
Riflemen overperform massively for their cost, even a blind man could see that. How often do you actually see USF elite infantry outside the rare squad of thompson rangers? RIfles are just so cost-effective.
Their racks and grenades are couple hundred manpower and 40 fuel in total, 25 if a player goes for 1919's, that's hardly bank breaking or an 'intensive' use of resources.
Rifles can do all the jobs their elite counterparts can, in most cases matching or surpassing what they are meant to excell at, plus they have the added benefit of access to on hand smoke, allowing them to control the entire engagement by seperating the enemy forces.
Add in their mad vet rewards, ability to equip either dual lmgs that melt infantry, or dual zooks that in numbers can threaten even the heaviest armour and how cheap they are to reinforce. It's absurd to say they aren't a problem.
Though ye you are correct that the mortar is a serious problem, but the USF have been so overbuffed recently that it sits alongside a half dozen other issues, rifles being one of them.
There was never a reason for usf to get the mortar. Some people might say "its to counter hmgs" but cmon, rifleman have smoke grenades + the pack howitzer + the howitzer motor carriage, isnt that enough counter?
How many times have I played against usf and the player would just get the standard 3/4 rifles with 1919's and just attack move to a location while melting all my infantry along the way, my hmgs couldnt even finish reload to supress them because of the 6/8 1919's. And the same is said for bazookas and BARs. Rifles should just be able to equip 1 weapon and pick up another from the ground, that wouldnt break the unit as some people might say.
Grens was a joke about six months ago, but they are not anymore. Because to be a joke means that you are actually providing something of use, in this case comical relief, but they cant even do that anymore...
Grens needs something exceedingly solid to make them worthwhile again, not just a few mp of their price or a better vet 1 ability, as has been suggested in other threads. They need a massive overhaul to their damage/survivability potential, because atm they are no better than dumpster divers in a firefight.
No they do not. Grens dont hold up to anything, bar scripts which could use a bit of love themselves. In fact, grens usually drop a model just stepping into the fight in the first place, even if at max range! It would be hilarious if it wasent so pathetic.
This is properly true, but since basically e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g. else knocks the living daylights outta them, I'd really rather just buff the grens instead of having to nerf everything else. Though the double-equip shite has diffinately got to go!
Just my opinion though.
1]
They cannot, I say again, C.A.N.N.O.T. easily out-damage RM on long ranges! In fact, they cant out-damage them at any range, not close, not medium, not far, not nothin'! They will get shreeded almost instantly and unless someone provides me with a replay showing me otherwise, Im calling bs on this statement.
2]
I dont think ANYONE is insisting that they should be able to beat RM at all ranges. In fact, given the higher cost for the RM, I think its just fine and dandy that they defeat the grens at close and medium ranges... But as it stands now, no range will do the trick for the grens and this is just plain unacceptable..!
3]
The USF mortar dosent "disrupt" anything. It homes in, finds its targets and then annihilates them. The only reason the USF got the mortar in the first place was to; quote/unquote: "Give the USF more diversity in their opening builds."
I mean wtf!? That's like giving a billionaire who has monopoly on burgers, monopoly on soft drinks as well, because, "hey, its just not fun earning all those billions on burgers alone!"
1]
You're gonna have to explain this one to me. How does smoke not neutralise mg's? That's like the main thing that it does. That's the whole point of smoke; to be able put up a, quite literal, smokescreen to ensure that the semi-static and clumpsy enemy unit cannot fire on you as you close the distance. How is that not neutralising the mg's?
2]
Yes, the mortar needs to be changed. No, the RM needs to be changed as well...
Dont forget that RM's reinforcement cost is about the same as the grens, making no sense whatsoever. Grens need a much lower reinforcement cost to be able to even somewhat combat their excessive bleeding.
They dont because western front allies are too strong in the absorb/deal damage department, otherwise they would be fine.
Thats why I suggest moving the bolster squad ability from brits to wehr so grens and ppgrens can have a fighting chance in mid/late game and giving infantry sections a squad size increase at vet 3.
It's kinda funny isnt it?
Thats just not using smoke properly.
Gren spacing would be fine. I do think adding an extra man to engineers by tier 4 or by upgrade would help a little. The balance is not too terrible. Some minor adjustments over time would be better than quick major adjustments.
Nice, ok, so the counter argument to me is radical hyperbole, that's productive.
Here here! raises his ale
Right, cuz 15 fuel will break the bank, when most no longer even tech nades before getting the stuart cuz of the mortar. And Riflemen are not expensive themselves considering the great dps they put out vs grens. I'd say they are easily worth 300mp.
It could happen, but USF would need rocket arty and a panther like tank without a doctrine. That is why i think commanders were a dumb idea to begin with.
Adding an extra man to engineers might help. Ostheer engineers can ignore received accuracy and armor with their flamethrowers, correct? It would also help to speed up repairs on panthers, tigers, and brumbars. Well, those are my thoughts on it anyway.
Well, they were a bad idea because relic just rushed into them to make more cash but if there were fewer commanders but unique and very well put together it would have been great. Lets just hope they have learnt the lesson.
Dont think so, it would help if you could upgrade grens and pgrens with an ability like ukf has, aka bolster squad. This way late game your grens and pgrens wouldnt get wiped in a blink of an eye.
Grenadiers would be spammed, and 2 shreks on a 5 man squad is a bad idea.
Buffing them this way would lead to nerfs in damage, and you would lose the ability to carry shreks with pgrens when upgraded.
Anyone doing a comparison in teching between Murica and Wehr knows this is a lazy mantra of an excuse, not based on reality....and this is without considering WHAT kind of units you get. With every tech up USF gets a good infantry unit, while Wehr gets an option to set up a single building, meaning we have even one unit less on the frontline, and more laborious unnecessary micro...
USF uses every single resource spent on getting units out, or great abilities, while Wehr is like a black hole...sucking your resources and FORCING you to pay for the stuff you dont want to.
MGs are neutered the very moment you drop smoke. I dont know which game do you play. For some reason, most USF players dont even bother. The AI on hard or expert uses smoke 100 times better than an average, lazy, USF player.
You wanna see expensive, go see Wehr Panzergrenaiders, and how much MP and fuel you need to invest before getting them...also reinforcement cost... see, thats expensive.
Then again, you're forgetting that grens are not supposed to be stand alone unit.
They can't be spammed and used without support weapons/sniper, because they were never meant to.
Making them stronger will only lead to grenspam meta.
Rifles are stand-alone, because that is their design, you need to rely on them for everything.
Tommies are strong, but pathetically weak at close range, out of cover and still have cost that prohibits them from being used in numbers.
Grens do not have any of these advantages, but they also lack any disadvantages, the biggest one they had-being OHKd by mines, was fixed long ago.
Grens will never be strong enough to work independently of support T1/T0 units, just like cons aren't without heavy doctrinal support.
Vet1 ability is gloval ost+sov problem.
AGs could use some love, but they will NEVER not be a doctrinal unit, nor should they get MP44.
Their vet1 should be the place where they receive a buff, either through some passive skill or interesting active ability.
That's true, I don't think many of us disagree that they should be designed to work in conjunction with the Ostheer support teams. But currently they are incredibly lackluster in the role of defensive infantry, most players either ignore them and just target the weapon teams they are supposed to be defending, or wipe them nearly instantaneously with focused or indirect fire.
Not if you give them certain limitations, things like increased accuracy and faster weapon cooldown in cover, something similar to tommies but perhaps only in Green cover to encourage the use of sandbags and defensive positioning, this will also prevent the late game yellow cover from allowing them to blob.
Except they aren't stand alone anymore, they have the best mortar in the game. A now solid mg that they have access to through the lieutenant (though their recieved accuracy needs a small adjustment), the USF anti-tank gun that is far from being considered underpowered after its last buff, and finally the pack howi as the cherry on top.
The only slight disadvantage is the mg is seperated from the other two by a moderate fuel cost, but that's offset by the cheap cost of fighting positions.
The argument that they are stand-alone is irrelevant now, the only reason a US player "relies on them" is that as a blob they can focus down nearly anything in the game with either lmg's or zooks. Why would you bother using their already powerful combined arms, when you can just attack move across the map and find little resistance?
They do everything Gren's can with the addition of smoke and the doctrinal upgrade to lay mines and build fighting positions themselves (because of the 30% of USF players who don't go calliope have access to them through the heavy cav commander, as that's the only two now used). Whilst all the while being better at mid-close range, having way more survivability, being way more cost effective, are far more versatile and scale phonomenally due to vet.
And think of poor OKW by comparison, their support weapons are definitly the worst in the game, yet their volks aren't half the troops that rifles are.
Tommy blobs are still common, I play alot of 2v2 as Ostheer and Sov, once the yellow cover fills the map, there is little to discourage players using them alongside a foward retreat point at an assembly. Aren't they only 28 to reinforce, against 30 for Grens? (I might be off on that, as I haven't checked in a while.) But I do disagree that cost prohibits them being spammed.
The only advantages Gren's have over the two western front infantry is they don't have to rely on vet or an upgrade for their snare/grenade, and they cost 40 less manpower to build as a squad. After that its nothing but disadvantages.
They are incredibly fragile, their damage output is poor without the mg-42 upgrade, they are incredibly expensive to reinforce and end up as a manpower drain by midgame, they scale poorly, they have terrible spacing issues.
The mine nerfs helped their survivability to a degree, but the obscene accuracy and variety of allied indirect fire is now the main reason they get wiped. At least before it was easy to counter mines with a sweeper, a current mortar pit, not so much... If they get caught in any rocket barrage, or spend and extended amount of time in mortar range, they are incredibly lucky to escape intact, let alone with a single model.
Axis are based on tiered infantry, against the allies using a single entity that is upgraded throughout the game (Soviets excluded, which is why cons need reworking) . Currently Ostheer lack any elite infantry, even doctrinal (Stormtroopers are little more than glorified panzergrenadiers that have slightly better stats).
Since Relic would never invest the resources to create new models, animations etc. I suggested tranferring the Panzergrenadiers into a higher tier, adjusting their stats and abiltiies to give them a late elite infantry that Ostheer desperately needs. That leaves a gap in their early game for infantry that can attack, as Grens need to stay as a defensive infantry, that's why I suggested moving the assault grenadiers out of being doctrinal and reworking them.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that they should get mp44s, mp40's are their signature weapons, no one wants a copy of the current panzergrenadiers.
Neutralise strategic points faster, the fire superiority for the campaign (supresses a unit they are advancing towards). Something like that.
A. Crappy vet 1 ability (needs fixing, change to a buy once and then re-use on cooldown this will help survivability too!)
B. Spacing (easy enough to fix without making them OP, just will help with accidental instawipes)
And that's about it grens work fine otherwise. Maybe knock 2mp off reinforce cost?
Rifles were designed to be standalone, but that was before the assymetric balance between factions was thrown out. Now rifles are backed up with the best mortar, an excellent mg, at gun, howitzer and the overbuffed jackson. They don't lack support any longer, but they have retained all the fighting-power and abilities they had before those buffs, alongside when the vet bug was fixed.
Now they are so cost effective and powerful, most USF players just ignore their other elite infatry all together. I can't remember the last time I saw paratroopers or pathfinders in a game.
Different spacing would help, the tommy formation being the obvious one. But they are a four man squad, that's 80 less health than a five man squad, coupled with the poor recieved accuracy vet means they melt against anything more than a basic squad of conscripts. The changes to spacing would only do so much to prevent indirect fire instawipes, it won't make them any less fragile overall to small arms fire and tanks.
Tommies are only 40 more mp, the same as rifles, yet their performance is ridiculous in comparison to grenadiers. Yes, they do get their snare/grenade for free, but they scale so poorly and bring nothing more than a snare to the fight after the ten minute mark (that's if you haven't lost them).
They need a rework, Ostheer has no elite infantry unless you count Panzergrenadiers, but they themselves are just as fragile as grens. I, alongside many others would not mind a price increase as long as the only two mainline infantry squads get some sort of staying power, as currently by midgame, the Ostheer infantry is just pushed off the map by their allied counterparts.
Riflegrenades are rather easy to dodge, though I don't deny they can do some serious damage if they hit. But I disagree that a Gren squad can 'slaughter' its counterparts if ignored, in most cases they are forced of the field after the enemy has routed the support weapons. Watching vetted lmg gren's trying to fight off vetted penals, rifles, tommies, guards is equivalent to seeing someone trying to fight of a tiger witha feather duster. They just tickle them before getting eaten alive.
Tommy blobs aren't that expensive (40 more mp a squad, 28 to reinforce), against grens and p grens (30 and 32 to reinforce). Add in that brits float muni, and outfitting them isn't even hard. After that they just melt mgs and axis infantry, which is why everyone is asking for 1 lmg a squad and for the mass of yellow cover that appears mid game to be toned down.
Yeh their spacing is crap. But Dps wise to their counterparts. No. They lose one model and that's 25% of their damage, two and that's 50%, then they have to retreat or face being wiped. Add in the fact Allied infantry from guards to rifles get dual lmgs, they fall so far behind that even at vet 3 the do little more than tickle units like riflemen.
Fixing grens requires more than spacing and allowing them to heal in field, that's obscene to suggest. First we should wait for the nerfs to allied infantry vet, scaling down to a single lmg and adjustments to their spacing. Then its more than likely that they need a slight amount of armour or better recieved accuracy to survive in field, as currently they lose to everything but conscripts. FInally their vet 1 needs a rework, something that synergises with their support teams, be it a version of volley fire to hold back flank attacks, or perhaps a stun grenade like the elite troops commander gives them.