[USF/UKF] [All] - Serious double weapon upgrade blobs.

#1
2 years ago
AceOfTitaniumAceOfTita… Posts: 195
edited November 2016 in Balance Feedback

I have noticed that sometimes people talk about this issue in other topics but it deserves one topic of its own, it is a serious issue that is killing all the fun and the element of thinking about strategies in games.
I think it's obvious that since the western front armies and british army dlc's the game is pretty unbalanced due to infantry being tougher and being able to take more punishment unlike the axis counterpart, and to make things even more frustrating the USF and UKF factions can equip 2 weapon upgrades (that are pretty good on their own) which in conjunction with their vet makes the situation ridiculous. Is a blob composed of 3 rifleman squads equiped with 2 browning lmg's each (6 total) beat 2 grens with mg42's + 2 pgrens unupgraded with panzerschrecks + a sniper + a scout car and being the grens and pgrens in cover of vehicle wrecks and the rifleman squads in the middle of a frozen river with no cover?! Yes this happened to me and it sounds pretty unbalanced!

So it would be nice if there was some kind of anti-blob measures like an aura where if you have more than 2 squads in the aura of each other the more received accuracy they get or make squads be more punished out of cover and seeing that the USF and UKF weapon upgrades are pretty good on their own why are they able to equip 2 weapons on each squad? I will assume that is a bug or something of that nature so it would be nice if it could be fixed.

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Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468
    edited November 2016

    I'll just say i had a similar idea called..

    "Get out of my line of fire"
    In which an aura is applied to blobbers, and squads get a reduce in accuracy for being blobbed too closely.

    I doubt any aura of that type will happen, but what needs to happen is a reduction to the over performance of double lmg on already potent allied squads. Plus their vet bonuses.

  • #3
    2 years ago

    Not sure of the solution but UKF/USF mainline infantry is far too strong in and out of cover. It is ridiculous.

  • #4
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    It wasn't such an issue until the community realised that veterancy wasn't applying correctly. With increased accuracy and higher RA bonuses, mass rifles/tommies became incredibly deadly and capable of shredding their counterparts with focused fire, whilst becoming resitant to mg fire and small arms fire.

    Limiting them to a single mg and nerfing their vet would probably bring them back into line.

  • #5
    2 years ago
    company14u2company14… Posts: 572
    edited November 2016

    Are you going to buff the single bar/lmg to mg 42 lvls to compensate only being able to have one? Will you be able to upgrade without tech? Are you going to give usf a non doctrinal panther like tank or rocket arty?
    Also, why are you hating on ukf. They are the worst faction in the game right now.

  • #6
    2 years ago

    @company14u2 said:
    Are you going to buff the single bar/lmg to mg 42 lvls to compensate only being able to have one?

    I dont know values but it feels like the lmg is better than the mg42, to me at least.

    Will you be able to upgrade without tech?

    If you are insinuating that grens get their mg42 without tech you are wrong because to get the mg42 you need to research battle phase 1.

    Are you going to give usf a non doctrinal panther like tank or rocket arty?

    Well usf relies more on medium armor and in numbers so it makes no sense to give them a heavy tank in the main faction and they dont have rocket arti but they have 2 pretty good options for indirect fire one being the pack howitzer and another being the howitzer motor carriage. Wehr have these on the main faction but you have to consider that they have to spend res to escalate the battle phase + build the particular building where the unit can be build from and then build the unit not to mention that wehr is supposed to be a stronger faction late game same as brits.

    Also, why are you hating on ukf. They are the worst faction in the game right now.

    Worst faction in what way? I have lots of fun playing as ukf and I have a better win ratio than any of the axis factions at the moment.
    To be honest wehr is the worst faction in the game right now.

  • #7
    2 years ago

    Worst faction as in statistics, not from our experiences. All the other usf stuff is open to debate, but something needs to be done to tone usf and soviets down while adjusting ukf to perform better in 1v1. However, usf, okw, and ukf are all missing units that only commanders can fill. Commanders are the issue to begin with. Without them, usf is an incomplete faction while ostheer feels well rounded. I do not think bars are an issues, but lmgs could be toned down with a price decrease.

  • #8
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @company14u2 said:
    Are you going to buff the single bar/lmg to mg 42 lvls to compensate only being able to have one?

    No, why would you? Allied Western Front mainline infantry (and some would argue Penals) already massively overperform, they need straight up nerfs to prevent them currently slaughtering their counterparts with lmgs whilst taking little to no damage due their absurd RA vet bonuses.

    Will you be able to upgrade without tech?

    I presume you are solely talking about Ostheer here in relation to the Brits and yanks, ( a faction that is currently underperforming the worst overall in the enitre game by a large margin), they still have to pay for the t2 upgrade at 100 manpower and forty fuel.

    Are you going to give usf a non doctrinal panther like tank or rocket arty?

    That is a joke right? Give the faction that has been completely overbuffed to absurd levels no weaknesses at all in their unit roster, why would they even need a panther? Jacksons are already self spotting 200 damage tds with sixty range, most Wehr players would give an arm and leg for such a unit. As for rocket arty, the Calliope is already broken enough against Axis infantry, hell its probably a 70/30 split between tactical support and heavy cav as the only commanders usf players pick, so I almost consider in non-doc anyway, as its all they use.

    Also, why are you hating on ukf. They are the worst faction in the game right now.

    UKF aren't the worst faction at all, that's a complete fib. They are the strongest late game nation in the game, all they need to do is spam comets as most do after the twenty minute mark. Admittedly their ealry game is lacking, hence why they do so poorly at 1v1, but in the larger games they dominate overall with their amazing commanders, incredible cost effective tanks, piat blobs, bren blobs, emplacements. Need i go on?

  • #9
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721

    @company14u2 said:
    I do not think bars are an issues, but lmgs could be toned down with a price decrease.

    The issue is a bit more complicated LMG work fine on Gren because they have long range weapon and small size, the same LMG would prove problematic in PGs.

    Riflemen are mid range and become too good at all ranges with LMGs and so do Tommies. One should not mix weapon with different optimum ranges to begin with. LMG could be be limited to 1 and be available to Paras and R.E.

  • #10
    2 years ago
    company14u2company14… Posts: 572
    edited November 2016

    @Farra13 said:

    Please look at stats. Ukf have lower win rates than Ostheer even though USF's and Soveits' win rates are sky high in 1v1. If you base it off of any other game mode than 1v1, then Axis is doing fine. But we are not talking about team games, right? Or are you just selecting the stats that fits your argument while dismissing the rest of it. In other words, ukf, okw, and ostheer are not keeping up with usf and soviets.

    You can go to coh2charts.com to check.

    Double weapons rack with ukf is quite expensive. Ukf have to pay a lot of manpower and fuel to have them.

  • #11
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited November 2016

    @company14u2 said:
    Please look at stats. Ukf have lower win rates than Ostheer even though USF's and Soveits' win rates are sky high in 1v1.

    First off, Coh2charts is not an accurate way to gauge the balance, even the creator paid_player admits it isn't at all reliable due to the way the matchmaking system matches players of higher and lower ranks create an even matchup.

    For example a higher ranking Wehr player and a lower ranking USF player, the USF player having the upperhand with a more powerful faction, but the Wehr player being more skilled overall to compensate for using the weaker faction.

    Read the section on faction power level on the link if you don't understand.

    Clearly you didn't read what I wrote, or perhaps I wasn't clear enough. To sum up, UKF are not the worst performing faction currently.

    They have a weak early game, (although that is meant to be their current design), one that at the moment is even worse than it should be, hence the reason they struggle in 1v1 as the games are much shorter usually and don't allow brits to gain momentum before it ends. In team games however their full potential comes out, as they snowball horrendously into lategame where they dominate nearly all engagements. To sum up, they are too weak early, too powerful late.

    Wehr are weak early, and the weakest faction by late game. Hence why they are the next faction to be reworked as they are in dire need of it.

    If you base it off of any other game mode than 1v1, then Axis is doing fine. But we are not talking about team games, right? Or are you just selecting the stats that fits your argument while dismissing the rest of it. In other words, ukf, okw, and ostheer are not keeping up with usf and soviets.

    The best place to get an idea of the games balance is too look at the 1v1 areas, especially tournament results, for example the warpaints tournament that has just passed.

    In that tournament Wehr won 14 of 65 games vs the USF, that's a win rate of 21%.
    OKW won 10 of 28 games vs the USF, that's a win rate of 35%.

    Hence why I am confident in saying that the USF is grossly overperforming, which is why I questioned why on earth you would think that they need buffs as compensation to a nerf to their T-800 riflemen?

    The way Coh 2 matches players is why Axis win rates are quite even in larger games, as I explained at the beginning by how it forms matchups.

    Here's the link for you to read over if you don't believe what I am saying holds merit. https://www.coh2.org/news/55039/coh2chart-and-its-worth

    You can go to coh2charts.com to check.

    As I've already said, coh2charts.com is not a reliable source for balance.

    Double weapons rack with ukf is quite expensive. Ukf have to pay a lot of manpower and fuel to have them.

    They pay 150 manpower and 15 fuel for their racks. That is not alot at all.

  • #12
    2 years ago
    company14u2company14… Posts: 572
    edited November 2016

    @FARRA13
    So if axis is winning in team games it is match makings fault or skill, but if they are losing in 1v1, that is because allies are op. UKF, OKW, AND Ostheer all struggle in 1v1. This is not a allies vs axis argument.Next patch will tone down USF and Soviets or boost up Ostheer and OKW. After that, UKF is going to need some re-balancing. Balance should be decided between the top 100 players, relic, and tournament balance.

    They pay 150 manpower, but they do not have grenades, unless you tech it, and no snare. So they make up for this by being able to carry two guns.

  • #13
    2 years ago

    @company14u2 said:
    UKF, OKW, AND Ostheer all struggle in 1v1.

    Not really, personally I only strugle with wehr in 1v1 and it is the faction that I play more in 1v1.

  • #14
    2 years ago

    I> @AceOfTitanium said:
    Last post of mine. I don't struggle with wher, but i still think they are up.

  • #15
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @company14u2 Simply put, the reason why Axis are breaking even in team game win percentages is because the matchmaking system for 3v3,4v4 etc matches a mixture of low skill and high skill players based on faction power rating eg. High ranking wehr vs low ranking usf.

    So as you said earlier " If you base it off of any other game mode than 1v1, then Axis is doing fine. "

    This is why, the percetentages are inflated as the creator of Coh2charts explained.....

    As for a balance, and I'm not looking at the automatch 1v1, I'm pointing out the tournaments 1v1. That is the area where the best players use a faction to their full potential, so when the best Wehr players are losing basically 4 out of 5 games to the best USF players, it points heavily to the fact that the USF is currently overperforming.

    I am sorry if I hadn't been clear enough in my previous posts, but this just disproves the statement below is both a childish and petulant answer despite the fact I tried my best to explain things clearly without expressing such ridiculous bias.

    "So if axis is winning in team games it is match makings fault or skill, but if they are losing in 1v1, that is because allies are op."

    Sorry guys for going offtopic.

  • #16
    2 years ago

    @Farra13 said:

    ''Childish and petulant answers.'' This is why i am not arguing with you and why i wanted to end my time in this thread.

    Our opinions differ on if UKF is too powerful or under powered. I am agreeing with you on USF and Soviets being too strong at the moment. I do not think double weapons rack is an issue with the bar and bren, but something has to give. Alpha testing this would help determine the cause with some unbiased feedback.

  • #17
    2 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468
    edited November 2016

    I'm not seeing any bias. Sounds like you just want him to agree with you.

    "Our opinions differ on if the UKF is too powerful"

    Uh, yeah! that's what goes on here in the forums lol

  • #18
    2 years ago

    My problem is that HMGs don't scale well late game. Even 2 MG42s are not enough to stop #freedomblob charging directly through yellow cover across the map.

  • #20
    2 years ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549
    I do believe that the problem its on grens dont having proper stats for a vet 3 unit and the imposibility of okw to rely on volks for a solid long range dps unit, i base this opinion on my own experience were when i found a blob and i find myself behind sandbags even a blob of that takes his time to take 2 or 3 units, giving time to redeploy some unit and so, but here is the thing, hold the line by paying manpower could be considered a task only understandable for osttruppen and conscripts to some extension, not for lmg grenadiers and volks.

    While grenadiers do have a good dps at all ranges (exept short, its one of the only units that after x range the dps stops increasing) i do find that they should be able to do something more without relying on timed riflenades to win any random combat, maybe not a buff in stats but a buff in some pasive skill. Tematically talking on the stereotipe would be cool with something like "when on inferiority of numbers, x increase of the rate of fire", it doesnt buffs the "dueling skillz" but makes them to actually feel like their description shows.

    Volkgrenadiers have the problem that, while their vet is "ok" their upgrade is ashort combat buff that doesnt nerfs the long range, which feels really ackward to see, and while it has his point since okw its most likely to be a counterstrike glovaly offensive faction it displaces the long range job to only doctrinal units and obersoldaten, leaving this faction without actual long range trops to invest on early game to late.

    Obersoldaten stats are good, has good veterancy, comes on mid to late game and seem to have their hats magneticed to a point that every single mortar sheel on the map seems to land over them. While they were supposed to be the infantry to end with all infantry multiple nerfs made them to become glorified panzerfaustless grenadiers with a better grenade choice. Its provably the best infantry "dueling unit" in the game, or it should be so, but its unable to go agains IS or lmg riflemen, specially vetted ones that are most likely to be on the field by then. But since its an axis unit i dont think that this unit would be on a good state anymore.

    I dont take on account sturmpios or pzgrens because imo those should be facing the problem, they should be at their things (sturmpios are enginners at the end, those doors aint gona mine themselves) or be attacking were the enemy doesnt expects them (i have to see the day that a support weapon manages to retreat from a surprise flank from this unit.

    So to counter infantry there is left the most underrated but actually usefull that none its aware. The osthern pioneer.

    Why? Its simply, this guys have the best LoS on the game for undoctrinal infantry, they can spot you without you having any clue of it allowing support weapons to actually suppress at max range, then rush and kill your grounded units if you expect them to get up "since the mg is facing other unit", but they are able to keep the suppresion and somehow keep a good dps agains it at melee fight. Aswell its not too unusual to find them killing conscripts that blindly rush them while this are on cover.
  • #21
    2 years ago
    eonfigureeonfigure Posts: 468
    edited November 2016

    Whenever is see western Allies in CoH2 all i can think of is a parody commercial going like this " Hey kids, did you watch Saving prvt Ryn, or Band of Brothers, where Germans get mowed down like clay pigeons. Do you want to feel epic, one click demolishing krauts at will with your T-800 GIs, supposedly using tactics... which are nothing more than OP abilities, making enemy units instantly rekt, or obsolete. Experinece the TV moments, with vet yellow cover in the open, because Germans could not hit the broad side of a barn as seen on BoB and SPR. Watch your men in moments of extraordinary valor, surviving near miss shots from a 105 mil German howitzers sparkling Michael Bay effects, while your pineapple grenade/one hit kills entire squads...well, here is, Western front Allied armies...for your OP freedumb indulgment "

    I want a youtube video of this. :lol:

  • #22
    2 years ago

    Toss in the factors of...

    A) Their light vehicles arrive earlier and are better than yours.
    B) Your mainline infantry is worse and is shit in comparison.
    C) Their mid game units are better and cheaper than yours.
    D) They likely have better off-maps.
    E) Losing a veteran squad isn't that much of a big deal for Allies.
    F) They can instantly spend munitions to buff up their squads/mobile heal/smoke/grenades w.e.
    G) You are smashing your head up against emplacements, Vickers, and superior infantry.
    H) You have to spend a lot more resources than they do to counter previous point.
    I) They have to be really stupid to lose because if both players are similarly matched then Allies will win 90% of the time unless you get extraordinarily lucky.
    J) Volksgrenadiers fire rubber bullets or blanks because they are jokes on the battlefield.

    OKW is just horrible. Ost has some weaknesses but both are equally horrible almost across the board in value for their units. I can just YOLO with Allied units so stupidly easy and feel guilty for winning because they are such a joke currently, particularly the WFA. You can NEVER YOLO with Volks or Sturms and expect to win.

  • #23
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    because playing with conscripts/penals is totally fun versus a blob of STG volks/Obersoldaten that shreds my soldiers before they even reach mid range.

    stop making blobbing out to sound like its a USF/UKF problem, it happens on OKW side too and its pretty effective at that too.

    besides how are the USF going to work without many riflemen? i realize this means you dont have to blob them but it can be difficult not to for people with less skill. their entire army build is pretty much made up by Riflemen. if the riflemen dies, the entire army pretty much crumbles. they are meant to have surperior infantry firepower because thats all they have, they dont have tank firepower or durbility.

    depending on what you want there are a few anti blob measures. mines being one of them, but the other, being Panzerwerfers (lategame) or Stukas (if you play OKW).

    however, the Grens really arent your blob friendly units. they are too squishy at that. they support their team weapons with ranged dps, and stay behind cover. you cant effectively blob grens, but that doesnt mean wehrmacht cant deal with blobs. thats why they were given a super effective MG to deal with such things and riflegrenades to fire at a distance.

  • #24
    2 years ago
    pablonanopablonano YesterdayPosts: 2,549
    A blob, agains soviets? The "almost everything has a barrage" faction with undoctrinal demochargues? I do think that USF needs to chose quality or numbers on his army, like any other faction, and british shouldnt be able to get the 5° man, but man, soviets have problems but okw blobbing isnt one of them.
  • #25
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    @pablonano said:
    A blob, agains soviets? The "almost everything has a barrage" faction with undoctrinal demochargues? I do think that USF needs to chose quality or numbers on his army, like any other faction, and british shouldnt be able to get the 5° man, but man, soviets have problems but okw blobbing isnt one of them.

    your right i have demo charges. but soviets dont have the option to counter blob in a way that OKW, USF or brits can by blobbing harder.

    besides, everything have a barrage" doesnt really hard counter blobs. after the first 1/2 shots from su76, they will be out of the aoe range and the first hit tends to miss almost entirely.

    next to that the enemy dont have to be blobbing directly, the soviets just dont have any infantry capable of removing massed STG volks with obers on their own. soviets need to use late game rocket trucks or demo charges for this, or the barrages.

    besides only two units have barrages, the zis which cost a ton of munition to use, and the SU76.

    blobbing isnt a hard problem for the soviets but they do need to be more creative to counter said blobbers. if you play USF you can pretty much counter one blob with your own blob and win. the Brits can do the same and if they lose, they can support with the centaur.

    conscripts cant really be blobbed and penals are only so good as a blob unit after you reach mid/late game. so all in all, yea soviets can counter blobs (lik you said, rocket trucks or ftw demos), its just not as simple as to "you blob, so i blob harder". you wont win anything with that as soviets.

  • #26
    2 years ago
    KurfürstKurfürst Posts: 289
    edited November 2016

    Halftruck with Quad mount hard counters any OKW blob.

  • #27
    2 years ago

    @Kurfürst said:
    Halftruck with Quad mount hard counters any OKW blob.

    in the same way Wehr halftrack with flamers does.

    except both of em them dies in 2 hits from an AT gun.

  • #28
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721
    edited November 2016

    @Beardedragon said:
    in the same way Wehr halftrack with flamers does.
    except both of em them dies in 2 hits from an AT gun.

    Actually no, the quad has a range of 45 and suppress, the FHT has a range 30 and does not suppress thus it dies to infantry blobs that have AT weapons...

  • #29
    2 years ago
    BeardedragonBeardedra… Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2016

    @Vipper said:

    @Beardedragon said:
    in the same way Wehr halftrack with flamers does.
    except both of em them dies in 2 hits from an AT gun.

    Actually no, the quad has a range of 45 and suppress, the FHT has a range 30 and does not suppress thus it dies to infantry blobs that have AT weapons...

    your right it doesnt suppress, but it deals a ton more damage in a bigger aoe circle.

    i have an easier time destroying USF blobs with wehr halftracks than the soviet one.

    in fact you only need to attack ground and bait people in to it you dont even need to continiously fire at them.

    it is also more expensive munitions wise, so its riskier to use the soviet version. but i suppose you get more in the package in return, being able to attack planes too.

  • #30
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721

    @Beardedragon said:
    in fact you only need to attack ground and bait people in to it you dont even need to continiously fire at them.

    If your opponent is baited to walk on the fire created by attack ground, you are either playing against AI or with people that should play Pacman.

    Suppression work against blobs FHT does not...

  • #31
    2 years ago

    @Vipper said:

    @Beardedragon said:
    in fact you only need to attack ground and bait people in to it you dont even need to continiously fire at them.

    If your opponent is baited to walk on the fire created by attack ground, you are either playing against AI or with people that should play Pacman.

    Suppression work against blobs FHT does not...

    if you time your attack properly you wont get hit by the bazookas, and in most cases, even getting hit by the bazookas wont necessarily kill you.

    furthermore you can close off gaps and cut off their way with flames.

    i dont know why people dislike the flame halftrack, i get it in most my games due to the cheap pricing and it does me wonders everytime. get a flame HT and buy an AT gun afterwards. then you're pretty well rounded to defend a place, specially if you have bunkers or MGs to supress.

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