[UKF] Improving the 25 pounders

#1
2 years ago
JonnydodgerJonnydodg… Posts: 22
edited December 2016 in Balance Feedback

Make the 25 Pounders more accurate OR
Make the flare throw free but a longer cooldown OR
All of the above
It'll give the British a sort of mobile arty option.

Comments

  • #2
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    The 25pdrs are pretty weak right now, the artillery flare is basically never useful.

  • #3
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    The air-bust shells are actually quite deadly...

  • #4
    2 years ago

    @MCMartel said:
    The 25pdrs are pretty weak right now, the artillery flare is basically never useful.

    That's why I'm saying improve them. I believe they do as much base damage as a LeFH, with less multipliers due to more shells fired. It makes sense. Improve the 25Ibers, people stop asking for a mortar squad. Job done.

  • #5
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855

    @Vipper said:
    The air-bust shells are actually quite deadly...

    Airburst are usable, without airburst they are about as useful as a fish's unicycle.

  • #6
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    Its a really hard thing to balance, as they are for all intents and purposes free howitzers that are stationed inside the base. So now they are fully immune to offmaps, making them pretty much uncounterable.

    Perhaps making them an upgrade that costs fuel, mp and population in exchange for increased performance? As for how much performance though... well it would take alot of trial and error to get the right balance.

  • #7
    2 years ago
    JorviktusJorviktus Posts: 5
    edited December 2016

    That would be a solution to the British who outside of a commander lack any Arty and unable to get any unit wipes which limits your command choice if you need arty while every tom dick and harry has some form of arty.

    the RA commander is really bad considering it's the Royal artillery commander and if you're on Rzhev winter map, you can't use flares on it even if it's small that is one part of your kit that is gone and the rest is mediocre.
    Sexton just falls behind any other arty. The british base Arty really does need a buff or change which ever way it needs to have some effect even if it's late game tech.

    Edit. I need to write arty some more.

  • #8
    2 years ago

    Who needs 25 pounders when your at guns are on par with paks. Brit armor is hands down most well rounded (and cost effective in the game.) That'll more than make up for the 25 pounder and lack of snares.

  • #9
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,640

    @Vipper said:
    The air-bust shells are actually quite deadly...

    Not deadly enough to give up on comet, but that is deeper anvil problem.

  • #10
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @Katitof said:
    Not deadly enough to give up on comet, but that is deeper anvil problem.

    It surely is for the royal artillery commander...Airbust shells have pin point accuracy and blind tanks they really rule in arty maps where Comets do not have the room to maneuver..

  • #11
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,640
    edited December 2016

    @Vipper said:

    @Katitof said:
    Not deadly enough to give up on comet, but that is deeper anvil problem.

    It surely is for the royal artillery commander...Airbust shells have pin point accuracy and blind tanks they really rule in arty maps where Comets do not have the room to maneuver..

    In theory yes, in practice, not really, its not very cost efficient to pay 100muni for fewer shells with the same tremendous wait time if arty needs to adjust direction.

    By the time it starts firing the target is long gone unless it was immobile in the first place.
    I can't even recall last time someone used this commander. It eats all your muni and provides little in return.

  • #12
    2 years ago
    Make_love_not_warMake_love… Posts: 166
    edited December 2016

    @Vipper said:

    @Katitof said:
    Not deadly enough to give up on comet, but that is deeper anvil problem.

    It surely is for the royal artillery commander...Airbust shells have pin point accuracy and blind tanks they really rule in arty maps where Comets do not have the room to maneuver..

    Yeah, airburst shells make sense for artillery commander. But look at that commander: Winning a close game with this commander means you would have won this match more relaxed by far with the typical 2-3 british commaders everybody takes. Valentine way too late, Sexton as inferior priest in so many ways (self repair, damage, radius, population "feature"...). If you play 1vs1 there are better and versatile commander choices, if you play with mates let them take Priest or Calliope and choose a commander that really hurts your opponent instead of scratching the coating of their tanks.

    So I think this thread is more about the 25pdr as a general underused ability and not about a particular commander, that is up anyway.

  • #13
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited December 2016

    Royal artillery commander/anvil actually quite good in 2vs2+ games and I use it quite frequently "concentration barrage" air-bust shells is one of the most cost efficient "off map" abilities.

    The normal shot are rather bad and need buff but the UKF faction need a redesign before that since the barrage is currently easily available and dirty cheap.

    The changes I would recommend would be the following:
    Pyrotechnics upgrade take all weapon slots and the squad can not longer pick up weapons.
    Reason: Arty barrage becomes less spam-able.

    Pyrotechnics squad use normal weapon with no penalty and better on the move modifiers when not in cover and no bonus RA when in cover.
    Reason: Pyro squad act as Recon squad for UKF

    Barrage AOE buffer to 120mm or to Pack howitzer level. 1 gun firing each time.
    Reason current AOE is to low, fix the price discrepancies from unlocking t2 and t3

    Medic pack moved to sappers
    Reason: Reduce the staying Power of Tommies

    Sandbags moved to sappers
    Reason:reduce staying Power of Tommies or require use of trenches

    Make Brace doctrinal and Stand fast stock separate for each emplacement.

  • #14
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,032

    @Katitof said:

    @Vipper said:

    @Katitof said:
    Not deadly enough to give up on comet, but that is deeper anvil problem.

    It surely is for the royal artillery commander...Airbust shells have pin point accuracy and blind tanks they really rule in arty maps where Comets do not have the room to maneuver..

    In theory yes, in practice, not really, its not very cost efficient to pay 100muni for fewer shells with the same tremendous wait time if arty needs to adjust direction.

    By the time it starts firing the target is long gone unless it was immobile in the first place.
    I can't even recall last time someone used this commander. It eats all your muni and provides little in return.

    Depends. The fact that it can be targeted in FoW is easily worth its price once you've got both guns + Airbursts up. It's exactly what the doctor ordered when you want to smash a retreating OKW blob even if you aren't within sight range/don't have recon of the truck. Long as you know where it is you can have this blasting down on top of them by the time they get back.

    Still, overall I think the 25pdrs could do with a faster turn rate and faster fire rate as a starting point for buffs just to make it more useful for things that aren't bunker busting. See if they get a bit more play with that and move forward from there.

    As Farra rightly pointed out - while they do need buffs, we need to be very careful how we buff them. They're free and immune to off-map strikes, and even IF you somehow managed to sneak past a Brit into his base to detech either of his buildings, it will be repaired and restored for absolutely no cost at all to the Brit player.

  • #15
    2 years ago

    @Lazarus said:

    @Katitof said:

    @Vipper said:

    @Katitof said:
    Not deadly enough to give up on comet, but that is deeper anvil problem.

    It surely is for the royal artillery commander...Airbust shells have pin point accuracy and blind tanks they really rule in arty maps where Comets do not have the room to maneuver..

    In theory yes, in practice, not really, its not very cost efficient to pay 100muni for fewer shells with the same tremendous wait time if arty needs to adjust direction.

    By the time it starts firing the target is long gone unless it was immobile in the first place.
    I can't even recall last time someone used this commander. It eats all your muni and provides little in return.

    Depends. The fact that it can be targeted in FoW is easily worth its price once you've got both guns + Airbursts up. It's exactly what the doctor ordered when you want to smash a retreating OKW blob even if you aren't within sight range/don't have recon of the truck. Long as you know where it is you can have this blasting down on top of them by the time they get back.

    Still, overall I think the 25pdrs could do with a faster turn rate and faster fire rate as a starting point for buffs just to make it more useful for things that aren't bunker busting. See if they get a bit more play with that and move forward from there.

    As Farra rightly pointed out - while they do need buffs, we need to be very careful how we buff them. They're free and immune to off-map strikes, and even IF you somehow managed to sneak past a Brit into his base to detech either of his buildings, it will be repaired and restored for absolutely no cost at all to the Brit player.

    They are, however, open to counter barrages.

  • #16
    2 years ago
    JonnydodgerJonnydodg… Posts: 22
    edited December 2016

    @Vipper said:
    Royal artillery commander/anvil actually quite good in 2vs2+ games and I use it quite frequently "concentration barrage" air-bust shells is one of the most cost efficient "off map" abilities.

    The normal shot are rather bad and need buff but the UKF faction need a redesign before that since the barrage is currently easily available and dirty cheap.

    The changes I would recommend would be the following:
    Pyrotechnics upgrade take all weapon slots and the squad can not longer pick up weapons.
    Reason: Arty barrage becomes less spam-able.

    Pyrotechnics squad use normal weapon with no penalty and better on the move modifiers when not in cover and no bonus RA when in cover.
    Reason: Pyro squad act as Recon squad for UKF

    Barrage AOE buffer to 120mm or to Pack howitzer level. 1 gun firing each time.
    Reason current AOE is to low, fix the price discrepancies from unlocking t2 and t3

    Medic pack moved to sappers
    Reason: Reduce the staying Power of Tommies

    Sandbags moved to sappers
    Reason:reduce staying Power of Tommies or require use of trenches

    Make Brace doctrinal and Stand fast stock separate for each emplacement.

    Maybe.
    I think the squad should still be able to pick 1 weapon rather than 2 with pyrotechnics. Because without it, they'll suffer greatly against upgraded axis infantry without support.
    The Reduced accuracy bonus comes with Vet 2, so the Vet structure would need redesigned. And at Vet 3 they basically become recon squad with their scoped rifles.
    I think just a slight reduce to it's scatter would be enough.
    Medic pack moved to sappers would be interesting.
    Maybe move trenches to sappers instead. More trenches will lead to a near impossible early game, especially if a Vickers gets set up in 1.

    I had a conversation on the steam forums yesterday about the new PIAT in the balance patch. The guy said that it would have been better if the UK just got AT-snares rather then changing the PIAT, because, quote, " I can guarantee you we'll see nerfs to it."
    So then I thought: maybe the flares should come free on a Tommies at T1, and instead of a medkit or fares upgrade, it would be a medkit or AT-snares upgrade.
    That would of course mean keeping the 25Ibers performance largely the same, and probably result in a longer flare cooldown as well.

    On a semi-unrelated note, turns out the 25Ibers have stats for a smoke barrage. Maybe that should be readded to give Tommies 2 flares, one HE and one smoke. This will give the aggressive UKF player the smoke they need in the early game, rather than relying on a Mortar Pit reaching Vet 1

  • #17
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,032

    @Jonnydodger said:

    @Lazarus said:

    @Katitof said:

    @Vipper said:

    @Katitof said:
    Not deadly enough to give up on comet, but that is deeper anvil problem.

    It surely is for the royal artillery commander...Airbust shells have pin point accuracy and blind tanks they really rule in arty maps where Comets do not have the room to maneuver..

    In theory yes, in practice, not really, its not very cost efficient to pay 100muni for fewer shells with the same tremendous wait time if arty needs to adjust direction.

    By the time it starts firing the target is long gone unless it was immobile in the first place.
    I can't even recall last time someone used this commander. It eats all your muni and provides little in return.

    Depends. The fact that it can be targeted in FoW is easily worth its price once you've got both guns + Airbursts up. It's exactly what the doctor ordered when you want to smash a retreating OKW blob even if you aren't within sight range/don't have recon of the truck. Long as you know where it is you can have this blasting down on top of them by the time they get back.

    Still, overall I think the 25pdrs could do with a faster turn rate and faster fire rate as a starting point for buffs just to make it more useful for things that aren't bunker busting. See if they get a bit more play with that and move forward from there.

    As Farra rightly pointed out - while they do need buffs, we need to be very careful how we buff them. They're free and immune to off-map strikes, and even IF you somehow managed to sneak past a Brit into his base to detech either of his buildings, it will be repaired and restored for absolutely no cost at all to the Brit player.

    They are, however, open to counter barrages.

    In theory yes, in practice no. Ignoring the fact that all things that counter barrage will be on the field and not in a base sector (thus are vulnerable to off maps), all those things will have limited range, meaning they'll probably be closer to middle of the map AND all of those things require a separate investment, putting you behind the Brit - you're still very limited in your effectiveness, due to the fact that base buildings are extremely resistant to artillery fire to prevent scoring an annihilation victory from half a map away. Also because you'll be barraging 2 guns with 1 LefH, and the base is free to repair while the LefH is not.

  • #18
    2 years ago

    I made a post on addressing lots of things wrong with British Artillery:
    Sorry for spamming.
    I made this post on the steam forums recently addressing the issues surrounding the Royal Artillery in game. I don't want to see a mobile mortar. It's the lazy option and is boring as hell and makes the faction less unique.
    This is gonna be a long post addressing issues with the UKF that people like to argue about:

    Mortar Pit
    Two 3 inch mortars with more durability and range than the Wher mortars. What's not to like? It's sationary. It costs 400mp. I'd still take the mortar pit over the GrW34 anyday. It's NOT an offensive structure. It was never meant to be one. It's a defensive structure. It outranges every other Mortar and the Leig. Nuff said. This structure endures a love hate-relationship with players on both sides of the front.
    Some UKF players like it and use it well. Some don't and cry. Some Axis players don't like seeing it. Some do and counter it well. If that's not balance, I don't know what is.
    Anyway, the Mortar pit used to have different shell types available to it:
    Light HE
    Heavy HE
    WP
    Smoke
    I propose these be re-added in order to make the mortar pit more appealing. It gives it a better support role. Maybe make it like the Sherman switches rounds.

    Mobile indirect artillery
    UKF has non-doctrinal mobile arty. I'll get to that soon. Some people think the UKF has no mobile mortars. Well observed, it doesn't. Outside of base units, UKF has the Sexton, which is good enough. The Land mattress as well. Neither of which come out very quickly. I've seen some players saying UKF should get a choice between a mortar squad or a mortar pit. The British don't need that: they already have a choice between mobile arty and something else. An overlooked upgrade that is meh compared to it's competitor. Artillery flares and the Ordance Quick Firing 25 Pounder Howitzers. These are your mobile arty units. Maybe not the best, but there you go. Infantry sections throw the flare wherever you want (except base sectors), 25 Ibers shell the area, job done.
    The problem is that the 25 pounders are meh at best. And the medkit upgrade tends to be seen as better investment. And you're mostly right. I propose that some changes should be made. These changes have probably already been suggested:
    Make the 25 pounders slightly more accurate OR
    Make the Flare throw free but the cooldown slightly longer OR
    Give them back the smoke shells they have the stats for as OR
    All of the above.

    2 inch mortar
    An (unlikely to be added) idea that has been mentioned recently is giving the Universal Carrier a doctrinal 2 inch mortar upgrade. For those that don't know, the 2 inch mortar is a very light mortar, not much more powerful than a rifle grenade. This upgrade, though interesting, isn't that good, given the other UC upgrades that are much more useful throughout the mid-to-early game. However, what about giving the Infantry Sections a 2 inch upgrade instead? Instead of getting Mills bombs, the IS have an Ost like rifle grenade, with maybe slightly more range or damage. I really don't like this idea myself.
    And there you go.

    TLDR Re-add different mortar pit shells, improve how 25Ibers fire or how the arty flare works or add smoke barrages to them, consider a rifle grenade-esque option for the Tommies.
    Make the faction unique and fun to play, rather then just a carbon copy of every other faction.

  • #19
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @Jonnydodger said:
    Maybe.
    I think the squad should still be able to pick 1 weapon rather than 2 with pyrotechnics. Because without it, they'll suffer greatly against upgraded axis infantry without support.

    The fact that they will no longer be forced to fight always in cover is enough to give them a weapon not to allow them to pick weapons. The availability a arty that comes at cost of grenade should limited to few units and not all tommies squads.

    Maybe move trenches to sappers instead. More trenches will lead to a near impossible early game, especially if a Vickers gets set up in 1.

    Mainline infantry should not be allowed to built heavy cover especially tommies who benefit the most from it. If they want to dig in they should have to pay for it with investing MP in trenches. They can still use available cover, they will simply not be able to defend the point with heavy and tommie that can self- heal.

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