Winter Balance Preview Mod Feedback

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  • #872
    3 months ago
    Kyle_REKyle_RE Posts: 340 admin

    Version 1.8 is now live. This is likely to be one of the last 2 or 3 versions before the changes are locked for live game integration. If you have any feedback on the existing changes but haven't voiced your opinion yet or if you haven't played the mod yet, now would be a good time. Thank you again to everyone who has participated in this process, your feedback has been invaluable.

  • #873
    3 months ago

    Giving penals ptrs rifles was the one thing that allowed the Soviets to mix up their commander options. I really hope you keep testing that option.

  • #874
    3 months ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,319
    edited February 3

    Imo giving PTRS to Penals is bad option. If Soviet stock AT infantry (and that is a very big If) simply make Guards come of of T1 and Penals a Doctrinal unit.

    But then guards would have to be delay maybe requiring a second building or something.

  • #875
    3 months ago
    BT_7274BT_7274 Posts: 1

    Make the W button to work when buy panzerschreck for Sturmpioneer.

  • #876
    3 months ago
    bloberblober Posts: 5

    Good job. Fix tanks now please.

  • #877
    3 months ago
    Kyle_REKyle_RE Posts: 340 admin

    V1.8 WBP Survey is up. Give us your feedback!

  • #878
    3 months ago

    @Vipper said:
    Imo giving PTRS to Penals is bad option. If Soviet stock AT infantry (and that is a very big If) simply make Guards come of of T1 and Penals a Doctrinal unit.

    But then guards would have to be delay maybe requiring a second building or something.

    Or keep flame penals, and add Guards as a stock unit. Then give the commanders that have Guards a different unit/ability.

  • #879
    3 months ago

    Could you release part of the patch as soon as possible?? The part that fixes the urgent broken units? I think a lot of people want to play this again but are waiting for the patch to hit. 2 or 3 further iterations is a long time :S

  • #880
    3 months ago
    thekingsownthekingso… Posts: 410
    edited February 4

    I find the biggest balance issues are with the British faction which unfortunately have been largely ignored in this balance update. I understand the scope given was small which I find puzzling as these issues completely ruin balance.

    The cover bonus British infantry get are overperforming as cover is literally everywhere on all maps along with the ability to double equip* giving the Brits an unfair advantage.

    I propose we fix this by greatly reducing their cover bonus and increasing there performance out of cover so they behave like all other infantry with no unbalanced perks and removing double brens.

    Next we have the British Mortar,

    Coupled with it's extreme rate of fire it also outranges every other mortar in the game which is unbalanced considering the mortar structure can also brace for a long period of time becoming nearly indestructable. No mortar in the game should have 115 range along with such durability and fire rate.

    The Comet tank clearly overperforms in it's role being able to stand up to the Panther and in reality will beat it 50% of the time (considering the panther is supposed to be a premium heavy at ) there is really no reason why this should be happening. On top of all this the Comet also has fantastic anti-infantry power that the Panther lacks as well as speed and for an only slightly increased cost. The Comet simply has no weakness and no unit in the game should be able to claim this.

    Land Matress fires an insane 30 rocket barage each single rocket in itself is capable of squad wiping in contrast to the 10 rocket panzerwerfer and the measly 6 rocket the stuka halftrack . If that wasn't enough in itself it can also fire smoke rounds that damage units in a massive area . It's far to cheap , far to damaging and fires to many rockets. My solution .. to change the land matress into the 16 rocket version which is more in line with all the other artillery or reduce its damage significantly.

    The Bofors is simply to cheap for it's performance. It easily takes care off all roles aside from heavy tanks. It will decimate infantry, ac's , light tanks, medium tanks along with artillery and near instant kill AA. All this for a mear 280 manpower and 30 fuel.

  • #881
    3 months ago
    Hesky85Hesky85 Posts: 40

    I must say after some 1vs1 that the actual WBP dont change the balance that much. Wehrmacht infantry is still a pain to play because the medium tanks (cromwell, shermann etc.) and heavy tanks (comet etc.) from allies are still untouched and wipe wehrmacht infantry with ease.

  • #882
    3 months ago
    Omid_HesamOmid_Hesam Islamic Republic of IRANPosts: 118

    @Hesky85 said:
    I must say after some 1vs1 that the actual WBP dont change the balance that much. Wehrmacht infantry is still a pain to play because the medium tanks (cromwell, shermann etc.) and heavy tanks (comet etc.) from allies are still untouched and wipe wehrmacht infantry with ease.

    I am all agree with you
    They must give a ability like bolster squad to grenadiers or at least give them a second lmg upgrade

  • #883
    3 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 174

    Wehr have PG with dual shreks. 2 such squads will beat cromwell for cheap no? 3 squads for comet.
    Dont use Grens if you see Brit go tanks.

  • #884
    3 months ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 748
    edited February 4
    Remove the Ost Panther, change it with Tiger 1. Give it shell change as Sherman with HE and HEAT and 55 range, less fire rate. So Ost become a kind of tank hunter too with handicap.

    Change commando Tiger with a passive ability like smoke Bombs.   

    ------

    And make a limit for artillery like leFH18 to 2 at sime time. Too OP.
  • #885
    3 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 552
    edited February 4

    @mrgame2 said:
    Wehr have PG with dual shreks. 2 such squads will beat cromwell for cheap no? 3 squads for comet.

    2 P-grens squad is 680mp/240muni, how is that at all cheap? And to use 3 squads of shreks (1020mp/360muni, something no-one outside teamgame troll builds will do) to counter a unit that outranges them considerably and has WP shells is a terrible idea, they will never touch the comet.

    Dont use Grens if you see Brit go tanks.

    >
    Brit tanks just need toning down, similar to how OST tanks need buffs, you know... so they meet halfway and balance out. If the panther were at least half decent and actually viable without being insanely expensive it wouldn't be such a problem, but currently OST lacks any decent counter to units like the comet without spamming stugs, and that doesn't really work against any half-decent brit.

  • #886
    3 months ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,888

    @Farra13 said:
    Brit tanks just need toning down, similar to how OST tanks need buffs, you know... so they meet halfway and balance out.

    Yeah, but alas this is a problem which is out of scope of this patch. We shall see how the infantry scaling for Wehr turns out when hte live patch hits the field. I predict that the situation will be better, but far from good. Penals will still be the defining unit on the field for Soviets crushing Grenadiers, as will be for USF and Tommies for UKF. The overbearing reliance on team weapons aparently is something intended, which will lead to Wehr continuing to be mediocre as they are unflexible and lack mobility.

  • #887
    3 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 552

    @Hingie When some of us were discussing the fact that OST infantry is necessarily underpowered as they currently appear, mr_smith did add this after I highlighted that Wehr having awful tank performance, and the fact that so much of the allied indirect fire overperforms and just kills off the OST support teams and leaves their infantry alone to face other mainlines (something they aren't designed to do).

    @Mr_Smith said:
    imo OST woes aren't about infantry scaling. It's about core army scaling, and Farra13 has outlined all the right reasons why.

    OST infantry works just fine to synergise with support weapon play, and there's not one type of infantry that dominates over others. Yes, by going PGrens you get a lot of killing power, but you give up on schrecks, and PGrens are a lot costlier.

    The reason why OST teeters off so bad is because the things that should be helping OST core army to perform in the late-game just aren't there.

    1) OST has the priviledge of having 5 different battle tanks. Brummbar is great, but ultimately unatainable. Stug is amazing, but it only takes one good flank and you lose your entire Stug fleet, and the rest are just meh.

    If Ostwind was not so map-dependent (easily fixable with minor QoL changes), OST could have something to help their infantry take on enemy infantry; Ostwind attack doesn't care about your received accuracy; it just hits you with the AoE.

    2) Unlike other armies, OST doesn't get incremental rewards for teching up. Brits get Hammer/Anvil as teching perks, USF gets free squads/FRP, OKW gets their free trucks. Even Soviets get a really great, affordable unit (T-34) to put on some aggression. The cheapness of the T-34 allows the Soviets to benefit from their T4 more quickly, and replace things as needed.

    In order to get anything out of T4, you not only have to pay for the steep teching up costs, but you also have to invest a high amount of fuel to get your first unit out. This makes people stick to T3, until they win/die.

    3) Depending on the mode, you also have to worry about artillery. Due to the performance of T3/T4 units, I don't think that OST has any units capable of responding to that threat.

    If you are playing teamgames, and you have issues with artillery, perhaps the only solution you have is buying a P4 command tank, and that's about it.

    TL;DR: The reason why we can't do much for OST this patch was that the objective was ill-posed:

    • The causes for OST scaling issues are mostly elsewhere
    • Yes, infantry-scaling changes are a bit half-arsed. However, to rebalance things properly, we need to have all infantry squads (for all 5 factions) in scope. USF has to have strong infantry, since it's an one-trick pony, and they still have to face OKW (which is out-of-scope). Throwing vet bonuses around like that will break the slot-item system even more.

    So at least the balance team has some idea of the problems that OST has currently, how they address them, well we will ahve to wait and see.

  • #888
    3 months ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,888
    edited February 4

    @Farra13 said:

    @Hingie When some of us were discussing the fact that OST infantry is necessarily underpowered as they currently appear, mr_smith did add this after I highlighted that Wehr having awful tank performance, and the fact that so much of the allied indirect fire overperforms and just kills off the OST support teams and leaves their infantry alone to face other mainlines (something they aren't designed to do).

    That however doesnt change the fact that to compete with the enemy, Wehr generally has to concentrate its firepower more. Single Squads of Penals or Riflemen can be used independently to cap and are able to win fights they get in. In contrast, Wehr relies to have a unit and a support unit to do a similar thing. That means that their general map presence is lower despite them hypothetically having cheaper squads.

    And as I already to Mr_Smith... better tanks wont stop Rifles or Penals from stomping Grenadiers early on. Basically, either you outnumber your oponent as Wehr or you need an MG... And better tanks without either more nerfs to their infanty or buffs to the Wehr infantry will lead to more AI-Inf spam covered by TD spam.

  • #889
    3 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,636
    @hingie what would you think about toning up the lmg42, maybe specifically when in cover to further concentrate ost firepower? Penals while powerful absolutely do not stand against coordinated fire like tommies and rifles can, but cons can take up some slack there, so i still think the ost soviet matchup is pretty solid aside from the fact that grens usually have to rng their way into inflicting enough damage to defend against a penal charge (flamer change will help that tho)
  • #890
    3 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 174

    @Farra13 said:

    @mrgame2 said:
    Wehr have PG with dual shreks. 2 such squads will beat cromwell for cheap no? 3 squads for comet.

    2 P-grens squad is 680mp/240muni, how is that at all cheap? And to use 3 squads of shreks (1020mp/360muni, something no-one outside teamgame troll builds will do) to counter a unit that outranges them considerably and has WP shells is a terrible idea, they will never touch the comet.

    Dont use Grens if you see Brit go tanks.

    >
    Brit tanks just need toning down, similar to how OST tanks need buffs, you know... so they meet halfway and balance out. If the panther were at least half decent and actually viable without being insanely expensive it wouldn't be such a problem, but currently OST lacks any decent counter to units like the comet without spamming stugs, and that doesn't really work against any half-decent brit.

    I guess its cheap because you can get them very early and you scale from there. 2 PG squad with shrek will hold off AEC and Cromwell with ease. I wont use AT inf to chase tanks, but as a flank attack or an ambush with Ppak. Imo PG is best AT inf and OST should use them to counter Brit tanks easy. WP shell is more for support weapons, it is too slow and wasteful against AT inf.

    I dont think Brit tanks need a tone down. Comet comes quite late and if you deny fuel, Brit can only rely on Cromwell.

    Maybe i would upgrade Panther pentle MG to be more effective and maybe give it a sight upgrade option (Brit tanks rush with speed, while OST defensively snipe). Otherwise Panther is very good when used with PG or Pak.

  • #891
    3 months ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 4,636
    Nobody is disputing that 680mp/240mu wont hold off armour, i think the issue is whats going to hold off the infantry... Tommies in cover are more than a match for grens even with lmg42s, and if i see shreked pgrens i KNOW i have the upper hand in AI so i can press that advantage, i see two and i wonder why the enemy is still playing.... Focus fire, bleed them dry, save your fuel a bit then pump out 2 cromwells as fast as you can. 2 pgrens with shreks is suicide when you already need to out number and upgun just to hold footing against infantry...
  • #892
    3 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 174

    Well if its Brit vs OST, then OST does have advantage of their support weapons locking sectors down.
    Brit have to wait until cromwell to really clear OST lockdown ime. Now the WBP further nerf AEC AI, idk how i can clear OST garrison and/or MG.

  • #893
    3 months ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 174

    I been thinking perhaps Relic should move the WP shells from Comet to AEC. Would that work?
    AEC scales badly, but at least you have an early anti garrison unit for Brit.
    With it Comet will have one less ability.

  • #894
    3 months ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 552

    The Comet needs to lose that 50 range, its the only medium tank in the game with such a range, even being able to shoot further than any heavy. This allows it to harrass most units at will without them being able to fire back, and then it just uses its superior speed to pull back before they can close and return fire, or dives if they get low enough and easily picks up the kill.

    It shouldn't be one of the fastest tanks in the game, with longer range than anything in its class, armour of heavy, target size of a medium, excellent moving accuracy, smoke shells (WP with vet), free warspeed, good accuracy, excellent sight, fast veterancy, vehicle tracking and its effective against everything short of a super-heavy td (as long as it can't flank them). Its has no definable weakness. That's not a good design for a unit. It needs to lose one of its main traits.

  • #895
    3 months ago

    @mrgame2 said:
    I been thinking perhaps Relic should move the WP shells from Comet to AEC. Would that work?

    I mean, it would nerf the comet a bit so it would be positive in that aspect.

    AEC scales badly, but at least you have an early anti garrison unit for Brit.

    Brit has the wasp flamethrower in the UC and/or grenades as the fastest anti-garrison options then they get the mortar and also they have the vickers that isnt supposed to be a direct anti-garrison but the truth is that it is.

  • #896
    3 months ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,040

    Instead of nerfing all Allied AI to ground, you could just add "bolster squads" for Ost.
    It's difficult to fight OKW with such nerfs.

  • #897
    3 months ago
    Hesky85Hesky85 Posts: 40

    The comet is the best tank in the whole game. Its stronger and better than every non doctrinal axis heavy. Even a comet ist not weaker than a tiger.

    I say it again what i say a half year ago:
    A buff to wehrmacht infantry is the easiest way to balance the infantry game. Soviet has enough answers to such a buff with the light tanks and elite tropps like penals and guards.

  • #898
    3 months ago
    Omid_HesamOmid_Hesam Islamic Republic of IRANPosts: 118

    @Hesky85 said:
    The comet is the best tank in the whole game. Its stronger and better than every non doctrinal axis heavy. Even a comet ist not weaker than a tiger.

    I say it again what i say a half year ago:
    A buff to wehrmacht infantry is the easiest way to balance the infantry game. Soviet has enough answers to such a buff with the light tanks and elite tropps like penals and guards.

    I am all agree with you again!
    They must buffing wehrmacht's infantry
    and they must remove the ptrs from guard squads and Increase the cost of Dp28 upgrade to 120 munition (60 munition for each lmg)
    And give the ptrs to penals and take flame thrower from them

  • #899
    3 months ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,040
    edited February 5

    @Omid_Hesam said:

    @Hesky85 said:
    The comet is the best tank in the whole game. Its stronger and better than every non doctrinal axis heavy. Even a comet ist not weaker than a tiger.

    I say it again what i say a half year ago:
    A buff to wehrmacht infantry is the easiest way to balance the infantry game. Soviet has enough answers to such a buff with the light tanks and elite tropps like penals and guards.

    I am all agree with you again!
    They must buffing wehrmacht's infantry
    and they must remove the ptrs from guard squads and Increase the cost of Dp28 upgrade to 120 munition (60 munition for each lmg)
    And give the ptrs to penals and take flame thrower from them

    2 dp = 1 MG-42. Why they must have same price per unit?

  • #900
    3 months ago
    Omid_HesamOmid_Hesam Islamic Republic of IRANPosts: 118

    @Pastulio said:
    2 dp = 1 MG-42. Why they must have same price per unit?

    Ok I don't say a good thing about dp28
    but I am serious about buffing grenadiers and remove the ptrs from guard squads
    and give the ptrs to penals and take flamethrower from them

  • #901
    3 months ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 987

    @Omid_Hesam said:

    @Pastulio said:
    2 dp = 1 MG-42. Why they must have same price per unit?

    Ok I don't say a good thing about dp28
    but I am serious about buffing grenadiers and remove the ptrs from guard squads
    and give the ptrs to penals and take flamethrower from them

    why?

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