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  • #1052
    3 years ago
    I never said it whas crap it will do its job giving t1 opening a soft at option vs lights and there the ptrs has an edge. But vs heavies no.

    And chipping health aways from a tiger or kt and even a vet 2 p4. good luck with that while eating the return fire during the time it takes to do meaningfull damage.

    Yes the ptrs can damage heavies but its not as good as the other hand held at vs heavies. Soviets have better options for that then ptrs.
  • #1053
    3 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950
    edited March 2017

    Give all AT-grenades same deflection damage as Faust. That would be nice. For everyone... that's a nerf.

  • #1054
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited March 2017

    What exactly is your point? That PTRS suck? they do not. They perform at least according to their cost (if not better).

  • #1055
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    People arnt complaining that they suck, they are defending that they are not OP. Compared to other hand AT they are inferiour, based on the role all other current AT fills which is knocking chunks of health out in an instant. The ptrs fills a more reliable dot but less (for lack of a better word) meaningful damage. Saying "50% deflection damage tho" makes it sound like a much larger issue than it is. Sure with a massive 70 pen at max its going to be dealing 20 damage alot, but with fucking 70 pen if it didn't deal somewhat decent deflection damage i would have no value at all.
  • #1056
    3 years ago
    Xutryn_X7Xutryn_X7 Posts: 204

    I have tested penals with ptrs and without vs grens (0 vet) and here are the result.No cover,vet0,long range, penals without ptrs beat grens without lmg.Now same battle but penals have ptrs...close battle but penals win.Now penals without pts vs grens with lmg at long range(both of them vet 0),grens win.Same stuff but penals with ptrs. grens with lmg,same vet, grens wins at long range.With vet 3,is even better.So penals with ptrs are worse at AI vs grens(long range) no cover.Penals with ptrs vs ostwind,panzer iv,and command pz4,same vet(0 or vet3) vehicles win(usually with almost half hp).What does it means? 3 penals with ptrs vs 2 grens and one ostwid/pz4 will result in ostheer victory.GG balancing the penals.I really like them but oh boy,those IS have too much received accuracy.Even rifleman seems ok at vet 3 vs pz grens and other ostheer infantry. Good job.

  • #1057
    3 years ago

    @Xutryn_X7 2 Grens and one P4... now compare it with 2 Grens and one 222. That would be a realistic comparison. May you have to tech too?

  • #1058
    3 years ago
    Xutryn_X7Xutryn_X7 Posts: 204

    @Widerstreit said:
    @Xutryn_X7 2 Grens and one P4... now compare it with 2 Grens and one 222. That would be a realistic comparison. May you have to tech too?

    Well,just make 222 be more deadly vs infantry and more resistant to small arms fire.

  • #1059
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited March 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    People arnt complaining that they suck, they are defending that they are not OP. Compared to other hand AT they are inferiour, based on the role all other current AT fills which is knocking chunks of health out in an instant. The ptrs fills a more reliable dot but less (for lack of a better word) meaningful damage. Saying "50% deflection damage tho" makes it sound like a much larger issue than it is. Sure with a massive 70 pen at max its going to be dealing 20 damage alot, but with fucking 70 pen if it didn't deal somewhat decent deflection damage i would have no value at all.

    PTRS does 13 deflection damage in live and for conscripts in WBP and they are hardly of "no value at all" or "useless".

    Once more they perform at least according to their cost (if not better).

  • #1060
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    AT infantry blob lose to AI infantry with vehicle support. Given that the game is supposed to reward combined arms that makes a lot of sense to me.
  • #1061
    3 years ago
    Xutryn_X7Xutryn_X7 Posts: 204
    edited March 2017

    @Lazarus said:
    AT infantry blob lose to AI infantry with vehicle support. Given that the game is supposed to reward combined arms that makes a lot of sense to me.

    Yeah.Penals blob of doom with ptrs will not end well even if they will charge only vehicles(same vet leve).Right now everything is balanced with penals

  • #1062
    3 years ago

    Knowing it's not in-scope - are the balance team at least thinking of nerfing the Brit cancer when/if it does become open? So it'll be off to a quick start?

  • #1063
    3 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited March 2017

    @Vipper I've said it several times. This:

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    Sure with a massive 70 pen at max its going to be dealing 20 damage alot, but with fucking 70 pen if it didn't deal somewhat decent deflection damage i would have no value at all.

    I never said ptrs suck. I said live guards don't contribute much against heavy armor aside from buttoning them. The deflection damage change does not change that. They will contribute more than they used to. Whoopty do, they were contributing 13 dmg on a majority of their shots before.

    All I'm asking is why is 90 muni for 3 ptrs with the 3rd locked behind t4, OP? 2 ptrs just ruins a great AI squad and makes them a meh AT squad. Meh, does not mean sucks. Just means nothing special. 3 is something special, no other squad has 3 handheld AT weapons, and no other handheld AT sucks AS MUCH as the ptrs. Never said the upgrade wasn't cost effective munitions wise, but I don't think it's worth 300mp AND 60muni. You get way more for your MP leaving them as an AI squad. All. I'm. Saying.

  • #1064
    3 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588
    edited March 2017

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    All I'm asking is why is 90 muni for 3 ptrs with the 3rd locked behind t4, OP? 2 ptrs just ruins a great AI squad and makes them a meh AT squad. Meh, does not mean sucks. Just means nothing special. 3 is something special, no other squad has 3 handheld AT weapons, and no other handheld AT sucks AS MUCH as the ptrs. Never said the upgrade wasn't cost effective munitions wise, but I don't think it's worth 300mp AND 60muni. You get way more for your MP leaving them as an AI squad. All. I'm. Saying.

    It's not OP... they would just overlap with Guards while giving Penals an AT potential they don't need.

    What i don't get is why people want so desperately to fight against heavies with Penal PTRS. I mean 2 is perfectly fine against: lights and meds. If you need button or better AT power, you can still choose Guards Doctrine..

    PTRS for Penals is an extra option. Previously a simple 222 or Luchs could force you to pick a doctrine or back-tech to T2. Now both soviet tier can provide enough protection against those. Why do people keep asking for more and more?

    Anyway, i still think its an option and no one forces anyone to upgrade their Penals, but if the problem is 2 PTRS cripples the squad too much, than their PTRS effectiveness should be addressed against infantry, instead of putting more AT weapons in their hands. At least that's what i think...

  • #1065
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    I never said ptrs suck. I said live guards don't contribute much against heavy armor aside from buttoning them. The deflection damage change does not change that. They will contribute more than they used to. Whoopty do, they were contributing 13 dmg on a majority of their shots before.

    All I'm asking is why is 90 muni for 3 ptrs with the 3rd locked behind t4, OP? 2 ptrs just ruins a great AI squad and makes them a meh AT squad. Meh, does not mean sucks. Just means nothing special. 3 is something special, no other squad has 3 handheld AT weapons, and no other handheld AT sucksAS MUCH as the ptrs. Never said the upgrade wasn't cost effective munitions wise, but I don't think it's worth 300mp AND 60muni. You get way more for your MP leaving them as an AI squad. All. I'm. Saying.

    No other hand hand weapon is available to 6 men squad and not other hand held weapon is as cheap PTRS so it quite cost efficient and does not suck.

    It is worth 300 and 60 muni.

    The problem with the current Penal is that they can dominate the majority of axis infantry in the time frame they appear giving and edge on Soviet and they then dominate light vehicle play and still can continue to to be useful during the whole game with PTRS upgrade.

    A third PTRS would make Penal more effective than SP at the same price and the game hardly needs more infantry blobs.

  • #1066
    3 years ago
    Xutryn_X7Xutryn_X7 Posts: 204

    @Vipper said:

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    I never said ptrs suck. I said live guards don't contribute much against heavy armor aside from buttoning them. The deflection damage change does not change that. They will contribute more than they used to. Whoopty do, they were contributing 13 dmg on a majority of their shots before.

    All I'm asking is why is 90 muni for 3 ptrs with the 3rd locked behind t4, OP? 2 ptrs just ruins a great AI squad and makes them a meh AT squad. Meh, does not mean sucks. Just means nothing special. 3 is something special, no other squad has 3 handheld AT weapons, and no other handheld AT sucksAS MUCH as the ptrs. Never said the upgrade wasn't cost effective munitions wise, but I don't think it's worth 300mp AND 60muni. You get way more for your MP leaving them as an AI squad. All. I'm. Saying.

    No other hand hand weapon is available to 6 men squad and not other hand held weapon is as cheap PTRS so it quite cost efficient and does not suck.

    It is worth 300 and 60 muni.

    The problem with the current Penal is that they can dominate the majority of axis infantry in the time frame they appear giving and edge on Soviet and they then dominate light vehicle play and still can continue to to be useful during the whole game with PTRS upgrade.

    A third PTRS would make Penal more effective than SP at the same price and the game hardly needs more infantry blobs.

    You can chose PZ grens vs them even if they don't have ptrs,they will always lose.Just upgrade grens to lmg and you will still kill penals without ptrs.I have already tested.THe manpower bleed will be on him.

  • #1067
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited March 2017

    @Xutryn_X7 said:
    You can chose PZ grens vs them even if they don't have ptrs,they will always lose.Just upgrade grens to lmg and you will still kill penals without ptrs.I have already tested.THe manpower bleed will be on him.

    PG come allot later when Penal are already vetted. The also cost more, have more tech cost and are more expensive to reinforce so actually axis bleed more.

    Lmg also comes later and again grenadier bleed more.

  • #1068
    3 years ago

    @Vipper said:

    PG come allot later when Penal are already vetted. The also cost more and are more expensive to reinforce so actually axis bleed more.

    Lmg also comes later and again grenadier bleed more.

    just because the models are more expensive doesnt mean the total bleed is heavier for axis. at half the squad it evens out and after that it mostly favors axis. some examples (cons 20 mp 3x20 =60 now 5x20=100mp) (grens 30mp 2x30=60 now 3x3=90mp) (Maxim 15 mp 15x3 is 45 now 5x15=75 mp) (mg 42 22mp 22x2=44mp now 22x3=66mp)
    pgrens and penals i find tricky here is why:
    Pgrens 340/2/43=127.5 mp to fully reinforce (42.5 p model) i understand pgrens even get a discount but i am not sure if this is true. but if its true penals are likely more expensive to fully reinforce. Penals 300/2/65=125 mp to fully reinforce (25 p model).

    what i notice from my own games as axis and on the casts is that axis mostly have to reinforce half the squad. very rarely do they need to do a full reinforce. as allies (mainly soviets) i myself and from the cast i see they mostly need to reinforce from 1 or 2 models remaining. because axis are better at picking models off on retreat then sov and also usf esp in the early game.
    ingame graphs mostly show axis killing lots more units during a game (mostly inf) even when the axis are behind they mostly still have killed more inf then allies. so imo the total bleed is heavier for allies most of the time.

    on the other hand axis (ost) do suffer more from 1 shot wipes but that will be a lot better with the spacing buff. In the end it all evens out.

  • #1069
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited March 2017

    @TheLeveler83 said:

    @Vipper said:

    PG come allot later when Penal are already vetted. The also cost more and are more expensive to reinforce so actually axis bleed more.

    Lmg also comes later and again grenadier bleed more.

    just because the models are more expensive doesnt mean the total bleed is heavier for axis. at half the squad it evens out and after that it mostly favors axis. some examples (cons 20 mp 3x20 =60 now 5x20=100mp) (grens 30mp 2x30=60 now 3x3=90mp) (Maxim 15 mp 15x3 is 45 now 5x15=75 mp) (mg 42 22mp 22x2=44mp now 22x3=66mp)
    pgrens and penals i find tricky here is why:
    Pgrens 340/2/43=127.5 mp to fully reinforce (42.5 p model) i understand pgrens even get a discount but i am not sure if this is true. but if its true penals are likely more expensive to fully reinforce. Penals 300/2/65=125 mp to fully reinforce (25 p model).

    what i notice from my own games as axis and on the casts is that axis mostly have to reinforce half the squad. very rarely do they need to do a full reinforce. as allies (mainly soviets) i myself and from the cast i see they mostly need to reinforce from 1 or 2 models remaining. because axis are better at picking models off on retreat then sov and also usf esp in the early game.
    ingame graphs mostly show axis killing lots more units during a game (mostly inf) even when the axis are behind they mostly still have killed more inf then allies. so imo the total bleed is heavier for allies most of the time.

    on the other hand axis (ost) do suffer more from 1 shot wipes but that will be a lot better with the spacing buff. In the end it all evens out.

    Bleed does not work on fully reinforcing the squad basis...

    Having to retreat after losing 2 model is not an advantage but a disadvantage since one has to go all the way back to reinforce wait for heal and for reinforcement time (which is very high for PGs) and come back.

    The cost of reinforcing a a conscript is 20 while a grenadier is 30 which mean that if Wer does not kill 3 conscripts for every 2 grenadiers they lose, they are bleeding more. Now add to that the pop difference and even that ratio is not enough.

    How many time did you happen to float manpower with Wer? (or any other resource for that matter?)

    (you can find reinforcement costs here http://www.stat.coh2.hu/index.php)

  • #1070
    3 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 696
    edited March 2017

    apperently i am lucky when i play wher :smile: i moslty end up vs soviets in 1v1 and about half my games i had mp to spare munitions i had little to spare and fuel i mostly have just enough to get 2 p4 or stug p4 etc.

    When i play soviets is mostly dont have mp to spare mainly do to inf bleed and constant reinforcing of my squads and weapon teams, and throwing t34s at the enemy as they are meant to be used B) . That is the price for an agressive playstyle i guess. i got plenty munitions and just enough fuel to spam t34,s or make a pack su76s supported by 1 t34.

    i dont play okw or brits but i want to start usf again.

    as for the grens on popcap its 1 pop more: you do get more out of the squad in the long run (excluding the one shot wipes) Cons are more survivable but need side tech and need to get close to get on par with unupgraded grens. and grens scale and cons dont.

    the site says the pgrens reinforce at 35mp and not 42mp. that would be 105mp to reinforce 3 pgens just 70 for 2 models on a 340 mp squad. i could not find reinforce time of pgrens or penals.

    but i am currious how do you factor the pop cap in the caculation for bleeding? i never really thought about it.

  • #1071
    3 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited March 2017

    @Vipper said:
    A third PTRS would make Penal more effective than SP at the same price and the game hardly needs more infantry blobs.

    And? They should be more effective as AT in active combat, sturms can also plant mines, repair, and put down other defenses. Oh yeah, and you get one for free. Penals get.... the AT satchel, which you need to park your tank on the squads *** to get hit by.

    And I just don't think you're gonna see these blobs as much as your anticipating. That'll be one expensive damn blob, both in terms of initial costs and reinforcement.

  • #1072
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    @skysthelimit and ignore terrain costs, and lay super cost effective health boxes and throw stun grenades. But yes they are completely comparable.
  • #1073
    3 years ago

    @Vipper: Its funny that you have a counterargument to any statement, even the pretty clear ones like survivability in comparison further down below. Please consider that I never said, post-patch penals are bad in early game, I always said they are bad in lategame. Part of your argumentation lets me think you are intermixing this. In lategame both troops are vetted, guards just stay in the fight so much longer, so much lower downtime, so much more caused damage and battlefield control. This is far more important for soviet (& Ostheer) than for the other three factions because retreat means retreating all the way back to your base.

    @Vipper said:
    Not really Guards have 4 weapon that will not fire on the move, Penal have 6 weapons that will fire on the move.

    As a game expert for soviet troops you surely know that guard have a moving acc. multiplier of 0,75 while penals have 0,5.

    Maths is:
    6x0,5 = 3
    4x0,75 = 3

    When static upgraded guards a clearly better. And of course you have to compare Penals with PTRS to Guards with LMG, because Penals also bought an upgrade for ammunition to get the PTRS that come automatically with Guards.

    @Vipper said:
    They both start with the same target size of 1. They have the same survivability. If you want to add the veterancy you should also consider the following:
    Penal hit the field fast
    Penal have lower XP value
    Penal get stat bonus from vet 1
    Penal get more Attack buffs
    All these factor contribute to Penals vetting faster while their lesser defensive properties at vet 3 are counter weighted by their higher attack properties at vet 3.

    You shouldn't forget two factors:

    • their high vet acc bonus for rifles is at least partely compromised because of the lower starting acc
    • their starting PTRS acc is way worse and never ever compensated by their high vet acc bonus, this does not may make that huge difference versus big targets like medium/heavy tanks but it does versus the early vet sources in form of light vehicles and tanks / please take into account that AT damage is one of the main vetting sources for AT infantry

    @Vipper said:
    that is hardly an argument. No tech does mean much since Guards cost 20% more and teching is needed anyway. No built time again mean little since the Penal hit the field earlier.

    You are right about the time of field impact, just wanted to say that no build time buffers this effect a little. No tech on the other side is an argument, because going Guards you can skip T1 and only build T2 for a Guard/Maxim combo and get the option for mortar/AT-Gun. Sparing T1 doesn't seem to be a high ressource gain, but its crucial if you want to go for units like T70 to increase its initial shock value.

    But the main point of my argumentation in this thread is that, post-patch penals without flamer are a nondoctrinal semi-elite-AI unit no more, while soviets desperately would need such a unit to choose comamnders without elite infantry.

  • #1074
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @TheLeveler83 said:
    but i am currious how do you factor the pop cap in the caculation for bleeding? i never really thought about it.

    Pop increase your upkeep or decreases manpower gain per minute (which ever way you want to see it.) The bigger you army the less manpower you gain.

  • #1075
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited March 2017

    @Make_love_not_war said:
    As a game expert for soviet troops you surely know that guard have a moving acc. multiplier of 0,75 while penals have 0,5.

    Maths is:
    6x0,5 = 3
    4x0,75 = 3

    When static upgraded guards a clearly better. And of course you have to compare Penals with PTRS to Guards with LMG, because Penals also bought an upgrade for ammunition to get the PTRS that come automatically with Guards.

    Let me try to explain this to once more (since according to you I am the "a game expert for soviet troops")
    Penals have 6 rifles and all of them them will fire if on the move.
    Guards with DPs have 2 rifles and only those 2 will fire in on the move because the LMGs and PTRS will not fire on the move.
    And if you want to calculate moving DPS you need to factor other things apart from accuracy that are also affect when on the move.

    You shouldn't forget two factors:

    • their high vet acc bonus for rifles is at least partely compromised because of the** lower starting acc**
    • their starting PTRS acc is way worse and never ever compensated by their high vet acc bonus, this does not may make that huge difference versus big targets like medium/heavy tanks but it does versus the early vet sources in form of light vehicles and tanks / please take into account that AT damage is one of the main vetting sources for AT infantry

    Again Accuracy is not the only thing to factor in DPS and their far accuracy is not low for a fast firing "carabine" weapon.

    Do you have any idea what is the chance of Penal PTRS hitting a 222?

    Are you aware that in WBP the XP for damaging vehicles have gone down to 1/3?

    You are right about the time of field impact, just wanted to say that no build time buffers this effect a little. No tech on the other side is an argument, because going Guards you can skip T1 and only build T2 for a Guard/Maxim combo and get the option for mortar/AT-Gun. Sparing T1 doesn't seem to be a high ressource gain, but its crucial if you want to go for units like T70 to increase its initial shock value.

    But the main point of my argumentation in this thread is that, post-patch penals without flamer are a nondoctrinal semi-elite-AI unit no more, while soviets desperately would need such a unit to choose comamnders without elite infantry.

    Penal still beat most axis infantry that come at the same time frame thus they are "elite"

  • #1076
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited March 2017

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Vipper said:
    A third PTRS would make Penal more effective than SP at the same price and the game hardly needs more infantry blobs.

    And? They should be more effective as AT in active combat, sturms can also plant mines, repair, and put down other defenses. Oh yeah, and you get one for free. Penals get.... the AT satchel, which you need to park your tank on the squads *** to get hit by.

    And I just don't think you're gonna see these blobs as much as your anticipating. That'll be one expensive damn blob, both in terms of initial costs and reinforcement.

    And although SP have all these thing going for them nobody spams them although the where spamming VG when they had the shreck. And that is because blobs of 4 men AT sqaud with high pop, are not effective vs Tanks while 5 or 6 men squad are.

    And yet you have failed to present a single reason why Soviet actually need to be able to spam 6 men squads with 3 PTRS.

    Being able to create blob with hand held weapons is bad for the game and it is as simply as that.

  • #1077
    3 years ago
    Make_love_not_warMake_love… Posts: 166
    edited March 2017

    @Vipper said:
    Not really Guards have 4 weapon that will not fire on the move, Penal have 6 weapons that will fire on the move.

    and

    @Vipper said:
    Let me try to explain this to once more (since according to you I am the "a game expert for soviet troops")
    Penals have 6 rifles and all of them them will fire if on the move.
    Guards with DPs have 2 rifles and only those 2 will fire in on the move because the LMGs and PTRS will not fire on the move.
    And if you want to calculate moving DPS you need to factor other things apart from accuracy that are also affect when on the move.

    I just took your example for the maths, because you said so. After that I said we should compare upgraded Penals to upgraded Guards. But if you start to contradict yourself you don't need me as a discussion partner XD It makes no sense to compare Penals without PTRS to Guards. The flamer versus PTRS upgrade is the big change of the upcoming patch. If we want to compare not upgraded Penals (6 fire on the move) we should compare them to cons, and yes the Penals clearly win this matchup because Cons are worthless, only good thing about them is Oorah+AT-Grenade. Of course we have to compare upgraded Penals if we want to see them as an alternative to Guards. And it is the "button" ability alone in conjuction with 40% rec. acc that makes Guards 100% more useful in lategame.

    We just can take a bet now about future meta. Inspite of beeing doctrinal I'll bet on multiple Guard squads dominating upcoming soviet infantry meta, while Penals will drastically loose ground in comparison to their role in current meta. Most likely Guards motor will be the most common commander choice. You can bet on something else, just tell me.

  • #1078
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    @vipper im sure the extra 50mp and flame nades had nothing to do with the lack of sturm spam. No it was ONLY the extra man.... Not the self healing after hitting 1 rocket, not the 4 long range rifles JUST the extra man.. But just for clarification, whats the potential damage from a sturm with a shrek vs a light tank with exactly 1 sec of being in range (max range)? And now for and again for the ptrs penals? So you are saying that if a light tank nips into range a sturm squad could deal over 25% of its health and because of its aim time a penal sqaud wouldnt deal a single point of damage?!?!? Well that cant add up because everything ive read leads to penals with ptrs= godly OP but... It seems... Their aim time and low damage per shot is MUCH lower, i guess objectivly that makes their higher rof far more worth it... But who cares about being objective right?

    Also could you quickly give me a run down of how effective each handheld AT is if i decide to tech for mgs? How does that effect my choices? Oh, as okw it doesnt? What about soviet? Ah... Now how do i go about getting hand held AT and an AT gun?.... What kinda manpower is that going to run me? So what yoy are saying is i can get a squad of mainline, with a snare, nade and an AT gun as well as healing for infantry AND my tanks for... MUCH AND hand held AT for WAAAAAAAAY less manpower and even less fuel than the soviet? Well shit. When you put it that way OBVIOUSLY the ptrs is OP i mean 50% of 40 damage per shot with 70 pen? That needs to go to 1 ptrs with no more than 5 pen and 10% deflection (so the kuble has a chance)
  • #1079
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @Make_love_not_war said:
    I just took your example for the maths, because you said so. After that I said we should compare upgraded Penals to upgraded Guards. But if you start to contradict yourself you don't need me as a discussion partner XD It makes no sense to compare Penals without PTRS to Guards. The flamer versus PTRS upgrade is the big change of the upcoming patch. If we want to compare not upgraded Penals (6 fire on the move) we should compare them to cons, and yes the Penals clearly win this matchup because Cons are worthless, only good thing about them is Oorah+AT-Grenade. Of course we have to compare upgraded Penals if we want to see them as an alternative to Guards. And it is the "button" ability alone in conjuction with 40% rec. acc that makes Guards 100% more useful in lategame.

    We just can take a bet now about future meta. Inspite of beeing doctrinal I'll bet on multiple Guard squads dominating upcoming soviet infantry meta, while Penals will drastically loose ground in comparison to their role in current meta. Most likely Guards motor will be the most common commander choice. You can bet on something else, just tell me.

    I have no idea what you point is. PLS check you numbers:

    Penals have more DPS than guards at all ranges although they are cheaper.

    Guards with the DPs have more DPS up at to close, where penal have more but DPs cost MU.

    Guards with DPs have lower DPS on the move because 4 out of their 6 weapon will not fire on the move.

    You are trying to present Penal as meh infantry they simply are not, they still beat most axis infantry of the same time frame.

    If you don't like PTRS you simply do not have to upgrade to them...

    I have no idea why in your opinion a 300MP/60mu stock unit should be better than a 360MP/75MU doctrinal unit.

    I also have no idea what you are actually suggesting.

  • #1080
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited March 2017

    I have never claimed PTRS is OP all I have said that changes that promote blobbing infantry are bad.

    If in your PTRS will not cause problems I sincerely hope so.

    I for one expect that at least critical damage to axis armor will become more often when facing PTRS blobs.

  • #1081
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    @vipper the high aim time and low damage per shot is what keeps them from being blobable, that and 300 mp per unit. They are great AI undeniably but they lose that with the ptrs.
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