Winter Balance Preview Mod Feedback

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  • #1082
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    Will just have to wait and see if people will blob Soviet infantry or not but keep in mind that my argument was against adding a 3 PTRS with T4 that would make probably lead to more spamming.

  • #1083
    2 years ago
    moremegamoremega REDWOOD CITY CA USAPosts: 229

    @MCMartel said:

    @Farra13 said:
    I don't think anyone disagrees with the Piat change, its a great fix and one that should clean up what is a liability when used as early at in most competetive games, whilst also eliminating the abuse of them when blobbed in teamgames. However he does make a point in stating that by giving brits fully functioning reliable at (something I in no way disagree with) in the form of the Piat and reworked AEC, they are in effect buffing the brit faction by removing a key weakness of their faction in handling early vehicles.

    Though I believe due to the limited scope of changes that relic allowed for the community balance team to adress is the main reason why their have been no compensating nerfs to their mid/late game. As from my experience in the WPB the brits are now in an even stronger place due to this fix, I understand that things will continue to be bumpy in terms of balance over the next months as the team are slowly given more leeway in making changes, but currently I expect the brit winrates are only going to rise (in the smaller game types that's great, it makes them viable.) But they are already powerful enough in the larger game modes, this is only going to give them an even greater advantage.

    1. The game is balanced around 1v1.
    2. Their poor performance against light vehicles mostly has to do with their almost complete lack of snare except on vetted snipers of all things, which is still there

    And as far as soviets go, this is just a mess, I have no idea what relic is doing, the entire soviet infantry roster just makes no sense, cons are useless, penals are, I don't even know what the heck relic is doing with them anymore, maxims underperform, guards are useless now

    perhaps we should have separate balancing for each game mode.

  • #1084
    2 years ago
    Xutryn_X7Xutryn_X7 Posts: 204

    @Vipper said:

    I have never claimed PTRS is OP all I have said that changes that promote blobbing infantry are bad.

    If in your PTRS will not cause problems I sincerely hope so.

    I for one expect that at least critical damage to axis armor will become more often when facing PTRS blobs.

    I have already told you that even grens with lmg will beat penals without ptrs,same vet,long range.At vet 3 still grens will win.If the penals will have ptrs.then they will die faster.If they have 600mp+120ammo...i can have 480mp+120amamo than can beat them hard when they will get ptrs.I have already said that if your ostwind or pz4 front armor face 1 penal squad,same vet,penals will lose.Of course they might be vet 3 and pz4 or ostwin vet 0 but then you have grens vet 3 with lmg that can support the tanks.Penals with ptrs can't be a no brainer,and if it is,they will lose in the long run,same as conscript spam right now

  • #1085
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited March 2017

    @Xutryn_X7 said:
    I have already told you that even grens with lmg will beat penals without ptrs,same vet,long range.At vet 3 still grens will win.If the penals will have ptrs.then they will die faster.If they have 600mp+120ammo...i can have 480mp+120amamo than can beat them hard when they will get ptrs.I have already said that if your ostwind or pz4 front armor face 1 penal squad,same vet,penals will lose.Of course they might be vet 3 and pz4 or ostwin vet 0 but then you have grens vet 3 with lmg that can support the tanks.Penals with ptrs can't be a no brainer,and if it is,they will lose in the long run,same as conscript spam right now

    And what are actually suggesting that single Penal squad should be able to kill an AI tank like the ostwind ? Try any axis infantry against a Centaur and see who that works.

    I have claimed penal dominate most infantry of their time frame LMG grenadier are not of the same time frame because they need BP 2.

    Since you seem to like test try Penal vet 1 vs LMG Grenadier vet 1 both in heavy cover 10 times and let us know of the results. (then you can try mid and close and see what happens)

    Penal are far from meh even without the flamer.

  • #1086
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    @vipper, we will see. A 3rd ptrs further diminished penals AI power (especially with the nerfed profiles) i personally see that as a better balance, expensive unit vulnerable to AI, its like the way hand AT was supposed to be before the whole wfa bull shit of hyper effective all in one mainline infantry. If 3 ptrs were at some point available i would advocate for a reduction in deflection damage as 3 dealing 20 would likley end up far too strong, but i DO think further refinement into AT would be a good direction for balance (clearer trade offs and all that jazz)
  • #1087
    2 years ago
    Xutryn_X7Xutryn_X7 Posts: 204

    @Vipper said:

    @Xutryn_X7 said:
    I have already told you that even grens with lmg will beat penals without ptrs,same vet,long range.At vet 3 still grens will win.If the penals will have ptrs.then they will die faster.If they have 600mp+120ammo...i can have 480mp+120amamo than can beat them hard when they will get ptrs.I have already said that if your ostwind or pz4 front armor face 1 penal squad,same vet,penals will lose.Of course they might be vet 3 and pz4 or ostwin vet 0 but then you have grens vet 3 with lmg that can support the tanks.Penals with ptrs can't be a no brainer,and if it is,they will lose in the long run,same as conscript spam right now

    And what are actually suggesting that single Penal squad should be able to kill an AI tank like the ostwind ? Try any axis infantry against a Centaur and see who that works.

    I have claimed penal dominate most infantry of their time frame LMG grenadier are not of the same time frame because they need BP 2.

    Since you seem to like test try Penal vet 1 vs LMG Grenadier vet 1 both in heavy cover 10 times and let us know of the results. (then you can try mid and close and see what happens)

    Penal are far from meh even without the flamer.

    stock grens vs stock penals at long range in green cover,vet 0(both) -> penals win
    stock grens vs ptrs penals at long range in green covet,vet 0(both) ->penals win(close battle)
    stock grens vs stock penals at long range in green cover,vet 3(both) -> penals win
    stock grens vs ptrs penals at long range in green covet,vet 3(both) ->penals win(close battle)
    lmg grens vs stock penals at long range in green cover,vet 0(both) ->grens win
    lmg grens vs ptrs penals at long range in green cover,vet 0(both) -> gren wins(easy)
    lmg grens vs stock penals at long range in green cover,vet 3(both) ->grens win
    lmg grens vs ptrs penals at long range in green cover,vet 3(both) ->grens win(easy)

    You said penals with ptrs will be blobbed but that doesn't make them I win button.They can't steam role every tank in 1vs1 battle(beside stug) if there are 2 penals vs one panzer iv or ostwind then yeah but then it's 600mp+120 ammo vs 340mp+125fu/280mp+100 fu.

  • #1088
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,991
    edited March 2017

    @Xutryn_X7 said:

    stock grens vs stock penals at long range in green cover,vet 0(both) -> penals win
    stock grens vs ptrs penals at long range in green covet,vet 0(both) ->penals win(close battle)
    stock grens vs stock penals at long range in green cover,vet 3(both) -> penals win
    stock grens vs ptrs penals at long range in green covet,vet 3(both) ->penals win(close battle)
    lmg grens vs stock penals at long range in green cover,vet 0(both) ->grens win
    lmg grens vs ptrs penals at long range in green cover,vet 0(both) -> gren wins(easy)
    lmg grens vs stock penals at long range in green cover,vet 3(both) ->grens win
    lmg grens vs ptrs penals at long range in green cover,vet 3(both) ->grens win(easy)

    You said penals with ptrs will be blobbed but that doesn't make them I win button.They can't steam role every tank in 1vs1 battle(beside stug) if there are 2 penals vs one panzer iv or ostwind then yeah but then it's 600mp+120 ammo vs 340mp+125fu/280mp+100 fu.

    Great, except that there is a big flaw there. Unless your opponent doesnt know where the right mouse button is, he will likely move those Penals closer than long range, where Grenadiers fall apart very fast. Do the same for Mid range and close range (starting from long) and see how that goes. Im confident to say Grens will get their rear ends handed to them by the vanilla Penals and will still lose to PTRS Penals.

    Also, Id like to point out how apparently no one is taking offense by the fact that Penals beat Grens at long range so easily. Werent Grenadiers supposed to be THE long range infantry unit? Apparently not.

    Also, those 125/100 fuel are much more valuable than those 260/320 MP and 120 ammo. Especially seeing how the Ostwind is supposed to be an AI tank designed for AI to deal with Infantry with its AI. The fact they can lose vs 2 Penals which are both decent vs infantry and decent vs tanks is disappointing. Not to mention how the tanks require a lot more tech than Penals do.

  • #1089
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited March 2017

    @Xutryn_X7 said:

    Thanks for testing and sharing the results.

    As you can see from them an infantry that is supposed to excel at long range fighting (grenadiers) lose at it supposed role even to AT infantry (PTRs Penals) and needs a tech cost upgrade and 60 munition upgrade just to stay relevant at the range it is supposed to excel. In the meantime it loses badly do all other ranges.

    Penal are simply far from meh even without the flamer.

  • #1090
    2 years ago
    Xutryn_X7Xutryn_X7 Posts: 204

    I think the problem are grens.Even if penals got nerfed a little bit,grens are weak.Just compare with IS squads who take down a gren model immediately.Their reduced accuracy it's everything.Grens need maybe a medium offensive buff and low survivability or the other way around.Ostheer vehicles are weaks vs allied infantry usually

  • #1091
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited March 2017

    @Xutryn_X7 said:
    I think the problem are grens.Even if penals got nerfed a little bit,grens are weak.Just compare with IS squads who take down a gren model immediately.Their reduced accuracy it's everything.Grens need maybe a medium offensive buff and low survivability or the other way around.Ostheer vehicles are weaks vs allied infantry usually

    Actually it is the other way round. Grenadier are at the right spot most other infantry are OP. Why? because increased DPS make fight last less and thus more RNG and less tactical.

    Generally speaking it the WFA that need to be toned to EFA levels and not the EFA that need to be buff to WFA levels.

  • #1092
    2 years ago
    Xutryn_X7Xutryn_X7 Posts: 204

    I agree but that will not going to happens pretty soon.I also don't like british abilities,stand fast,mortar cover,WFA and UKF forces repair speed,but what we can do if the patches takes too long to adress?winter is over and still no patch.

  • #1093
    2 years ago
    KappaClausieKlausKappaClau… Posts: 1
    edited March 2017

    @Xutryn_X7 said:
    I agree but that will not going to happens pretty soon.I also don't like british abilities,stand fast,mortar cover,WFA and UKF forces repair speed,but what we can do if the patches takes too long to adress?winter is over and still no patch.

    Relic never said which Winter would be chosen for the patch :)

  • #1094
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited March 2017

    @Vipper said:

    And although SP have all these thing going for them nobody spams them although the where spamming VG when they had the shreck. And that is because blobs of 4 men AT sqaud with high pop, are not effective vs Tanks while 5 or 6 men squad are.

    And yet you have failed to present a single reason why Soviet actually need to be able to spam 6 men squads with 3 PTRS.

    Got nothing to do with the fact that their 300mp? Volks used to be 235, and even when that was increased it stopped at 250. Conscripts still have the more reliable snare, if people spam ptrs penals they'll just be paying for tons of attrition while sending lots of tanks for repairs without ever actually threatening to kill them.

    @thedarkarmadillo applause to your post on the end of the last page

  • #1095
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    Got nothing to do with the fact that their 300mp? Volks used to be 235, and even when that was increased it stopped at 250. Conscripts still have the more reliable snare, if people spam ptrs penals they'll just be paying for tons of attrition while sending lots of tanks for repairs without ever actually threatening to kill them.

    @thedarkarmadillo applause to your post on the end of the last page

    I have not idea what you want debate. If in your opinion Penal need a 3 PTRS to effective explain you opinion.

    I have explain why imo Penal are not meh in WBP and what problems might arise from providing a 3 PTRS.

  • #1096
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271

    @Vipper said:
    I have not idea what you want debate. If in your opinion Penal need a 3 PTRS to effective explain you opinion.

    I have explain why imo Penal are not meh in WBP and what problems might arise from providing a 3 PTRS.

    That a 300mp 90 muni squad wont be blobbed, and that 3 ptrs on 1 of them won't be OP. I've explained it plenty of times. You get far more for your 300mp by leaving them without the ptrs upgrade. 3 of them makes on-par with their AI performance, while also removing that functioanlity. Just like pgrens. 3 ptrs will be less potent than 2 shrecks, but on a more survivable squad fighting against generally more heavily armored tanks. What is so wrong with that, and I've been saying just that the entire time.

  • #1097
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited March 2017

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    @Vipper said:
    I have not idea what you want debate. If in your opinion Penal need a 3 PTRS to effective explain you opinion.

    I have explain why imo Penal are not meh in WBP and what problems might arise from providing a 3 PTRS.

    That a 300mp 90 muni squad wont be blobbed, and that 3 ptrs on 1 of them won't be OP. I've explained it plenty of times. You get far more for your 300mp by leaving them without the ptrs upgrade. 3 of them makes on-par with their AI performance, while also removing that functioanlity. Just like pgrens. 3 ptrs will be less potent than 2 shrecks, but on a more survivable squad fighting against generally more heavily armored tanks. What is so wrong with that, and I've been saying just that the entire time.

    . Let me try to explain the differences here:
    PG come later, cost more, the shreck cost, have more pop, are more fragile, have a very long reinforcement time, have to retreat early or risk dropping a shreck.

    In the role in the faction Pgs either work as stop gap because Wer tank come later or on support role.

    Penal would have the option to upgrade with 2 and then a 3 PTRS (contrary to Pg that can not upgrade with a single shreck) meaning that they could dominated early AI, upgrade with 2 if for any reason soviet light tankt/vehicles did not come earlier and then remain relevant even at late when Wer infantry are hard pressed by the superior AI allied tanks and contributed vs heavily armored tank with their increased deflection damage.

    In addition Penal have a powerful snare that protect them from being crushed by tanks. The PTRS can also cause critical since the chance is related to number of hits and not by the damage of hit.

    Having a single units that can do everything is not a very good design as USF and riflemen have proven.

    But you might actually want to debate the similarities of PG and Penal with Make_love_not_war who seem to believe that they should not be compared.

  • #1098
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited March 2017

    @Vipper said:
    But you might actually want to debate the similarities of PG and Penal with Make_love_not_war who seem to believe that they should not be compared.

    Uhhh, I was literally only comparing the concept of upgrading to AT and losing your AI between them. Nothing else. I'm done with this argument, you're afraid of people blobbing 300mp and 90 muni squads, and referencing shreck blobs that (A. have a more pwerful AT weapons, and B. were on a 235mp squad, followed by 250 after a buff to baseline dps) I don't see a logic to that, so we'll see what happens.

  • #1099
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    @SkysTheLimit with a frp and the ability to heal to amd from said FRP (vs 4 medics at soviet hq no matter how many squads you retreat)

    Pushing off the weaker (granted more durable) penal AT "blob" would actually have an impact of field presence
  • #1100
    2 years ago

    @Vipper said:
    You are trying to present Penal as meh infantry they simply are not, they still beat most axis infantry of the same time frame.

    Where do I posted that they are meh in general on itself? I never said that, please proof it. You really don't understand me as you said yourself:

    @Vipper said:
    I also have no idea what you are actually suggesting.

    So, I'm trying hard to explain it again. My post were never about Penals beeing to bad, it was always about comparison and loss of variety. Atm Penals are a unique soviet unit, that is not only very strong in early game but still useful in late game. The upcoming penals aren't as strong as the current penals but still good at early game. They have two wholy different problems:

    1. They drastically loose effectivity when enemy stock infantry units upgrade their AI weapons and first elite AI units show up. At some point of lategame they will just get chewed. This has two reasons: They are not getting such a high rec. acc as other units and they lost their AI upgrade.

    2. They loose their status of beeing an unique soviet infantry unit (Anti-garrison/cover with flamer) and get very similar to Guards in their role on the battlefield. This is a huge loss for soviet tactics. Can't you see that? Furthermore choosing a commander with Guards renders T1 near to beeing useless because T2 gives more tactial options than T1 if you have access to Guards already (with most people choosing Guards Motor).

    Just carry on arguing with multiple people around here and defending changes that take away variety. Penals with flamers were near to op in early game, I would be a fool negating this. But there would have been so much other solutions such as binding flamer upgrade to tech or giving PPSH with upgrade to balance things out and let penals stay in the lategame. There are enough good changes about the upcoming patch but this one is just the wrong direction, something had to be changed about penals but not this way.

  • #1101
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited March 2017

    @Make_love_not_war said:

    @Vipper said:
    You are trying to present Penal as meh infantry they simply are not, they still beat most axis infantry of the same time frame.

    Where do I posted that they are meh in general on itself? I never said that, please proof it. You really don't understand me as you said yourself:

    @Vipper said:
    I also have no idea what you are actually suggesting.

    So, I'm trying hard to explain it again. My post were never about Penals beeing to bad, it was always about comparison and loss of variety. Atm Penals are a unique soviet unit, that is not only very strong in early game but still useful in late game. The upcoming penals aren't as strong as the current penals but still good at early game. They have two wholy different problems:

    1. They drastically loose effectivity when enemy stock infantry units upgrade their AI weapons and first elite AI units show up. At some point of lategame they will just get chewed. This has two reasons: They are not getting such a high rec. acc as other units and they lost their AI upgrade.

    2. They loose their status of beeing an unique soviet infantry unit (Anti-garrison/cover with flamer) and get very similar to Guards in their role on the battlefield. This is a huge loss for soviet tactics. Can't you see that? Furthermore choosing a commander with Guards renders T1 near to beeing useless because T2 gives more tactial options than T1 if you have access to Guards already (with most people choosing Guards Motor).

    Just carry on arguing with multiple people around here and defending changes that take away variety. Penals with flamers were near to op in early game, I would be a fool negating this. But there would have been so much other solutions such as binding flamer upgrade to tech or giving PPSH with upgrade to balance things out and let penals stay in the lategame. There are enough good changes about the upcoming patch but this one is just the wrong direction, something had to be changed about penals but not this way.

    First of all I am against the PTRS on Penal for other reasons (and generally with their design as an elite infantry). (And if T1 actually needs a PTRS swapping Penals with a toned down version of Guards in T1 seem to me a better solution).

    On the other hand something had to change about Penal since they where OP and the combination of a flamer, many entities and high DPS at long range was probably on of them. Generally Flamers on squad with many entities is a bad design.

    Would Penals become better designed with a AI weapon upgrade? Probably yes but then they would have to lose some of the original punch and some of their vet bonuses.

    Where Penal unique unit? Well the where, but they added little to the faction other than high DPS. Flamers are available to C.E. that are equally effective when used in M3. Antigarrison is available with Molotovs to conscripts. Before the patch that doubled the far DPS Penal where considered a meh unit.

    Claiming that PTRS reduces Soviet tactics is not a very solid argument. PTRS Penal and Guards might overlap but one does not have to upgrade Penal if he is using Guards. On the other hand Shock troops supported by AT infantry is a new option for Soviets.

    What you also seem to have fail so see is that PTRS has become allot better in late game due to the increase in deflection damage.

  • #1102
    2 years ago
    comrade_daelincomrade_d… Posts: 2,948

    i noticed that the UKF AI never builds emplacements with WBP, and I mean not even Forward Assembly. Makes them extremely easy to defeat.

  • #1103
    2 years ago
    Mr_SmithMr_Smith Posts: 343

    @comrade_daelin said:
    i noticed that the UKF AI never builds emplacements with WBP, and I mean not even Forward Assembly. Makes them extremely easy to defeat.

    Thanks for pointing this out. This was a good catch.

    We investigated what was going on, and the root cause was that we didn't implement the advertised improvements to ai-buildorders properly (advertised sometime around wbp1.3). Stay tuned for the next minor WBP update and let us know if the issue persists.

  • #1104
    2 years ago
    SlayerSlayer Posts: 132

    Don't know if it's in scope or not, but OKW infantry eats guards and penals for breakfast, see replay.

  • #1105
    2 years ago

    @Vipper said:
    First of all I am against the PTRS on Penal for other reasons (and generally with their design as an elite infantry). (And if T1 actually needs a PTRS swapping Penals with a toned down version of Guards in T1 seem to me a better solution).

    On the other hand something had to change about Penal since they where OP and the combination of a flamer, many entities and high DPS at long range was probably on of them. Generally Flamers on squad with many entities is a bad design.

    Would Penals become better designed with a AI weapon upgrade? Probably yes but then they would have to lose some of the original punch and some of their vet bonuses.

    Where Penal unique unit? Well the where, but they added little to the faction other than high DPS. Flamers are available to C.E. that are equally effective when used in M3. Antigarrison is available with Molotovs to conscripts. Before the patch that doubled the far DPS Penal where considered a meh unit.

    I don't thought it would happen but we are of the same opinion basically. Why are we even disscussing? :)

    The only thing I would disagree is that Penals with Flamer added little to the faction: C.E. with Flamers are just very weak combat units, because of that you are better off using them laying mines, constructing things and clearing mines in most cases. Molotovs are lacklusters, because of such a long and obvious throwing animation in which the throwing soldier can be killed and delaying it further. If molotov would be on par with OKW version it would be useful actually, but atm you seldom can use them to harm anything, especially when playing on higher level of skill where everybody dodges it easily.

    @Vipper said:
    Claiming that PTRS reduces Soviet tactics is not a very solid argument. PTRS Penal and Guards might overlap but one does not have to upgrade Penal if he is using Guards. On the other hand Shock troops supported by AT infantry is a new option for Soviets.

    Maxims are a far better combo with Guards, there is no real reason going to T1 if you want to field Guards. Of course you can combine Penals with Shocks, this is something new, but its the only new option. With flamer penals beeing something like semi-elite because of awesome dps you could even choose doctrines without any infantry call-in at all. That allowed for far more commander choices. As far as I'm concenerd I tried a lot of different commanders with soviets in the last few month.

    What you also seem to have fail so see is that PTRS has become allot better in late game due to the increase in deflection damage.

    Please do not assume that for me. I saw it but it is immaterial when you compare Guards and Penals like I always did here, because Guards get the same advantage. Guards are just 100% more useful versus heavy tanks because of button and the fact that 40% rec. acc. allows them to stay long enough under fire to actually use button to great effect.

  • #1106
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    Penal over perform in live so they had to change. Imo if T1 does need AT (and that is a big if) making Penal the Doctrinal units and Guards the Stock make more sense.

    In that case Guards would have to be nerf or delayed but it probably work better.

  • #1107
    2 years ago

    I am against guards being nerfed, cause they were nerfed already and soviets has not so many infantry options or upgrades to deal with axis infantry.
    Also i play all sides, so dont tell me about guards being op.
    So how a soviet player suppose to deal with okw storm infantry with vets in mid and end game longtime, with ♥♥♥ conscripts? nerfed, expensive and useless after patch rifle guards?
    It is a way you make people to start on spam tactics with mgs.
    OKW infantry is its backbone and main force, it has the best infantry ingame, I just cant imagine how you will deal with these mass infantry squads that will be supported by heavy vehicles in mid game!?
    Also guards were already nerfed long time ago, when they made vehicle button ability cost for 40 munitions and near useless as hell.
    76 - for DP 28, 45 - for grenade, 40 - for vehicle button ability - this is aint cheap you know.
    in mid and late game there are no soviet infantry that can outshoot OKW infantry units.
    So you are going to fight with conscripts that you cant upgrade hah!?
    Also Soviets are boring faction to play - they dont have any squad upgrades, no buffs, no officers. I think relics must rebalance the whole faction.
    Jesus it took them 2 years to understand, that having T70 and T34 and SU85 and Su76 on same tiers in same buildings - is nonsense.

  • #1108
    2 years ago

    @HunkUmbrella said:
    I am against guards being nerfed, cause they were nerfed already and soviets has not so many infantry options or upgrades to deal with axis infantry.
    Also i play all sides, so dont tell me about guards being op.
    So how a soviet player suppose to deal with okw storm infantry with vets in mid and end game longtime, with ♥♥♥ conscripts? nerfed, expensive and useless after patch rifle guards?
    It is a way you make people to start on spam tactics with mgs.
    OKW infantry is its backbone and main force, it has the best infantry ingame, I just cant imagine how you will deal with these mass infantry squads that will be supported by heavy vehicles in mid game!?
    Also guards were already nerfed long time ago, when they made vehicle button ability cost for 40 munitions and near useless as hell.
    76 - for DP 28, 45 - for grenade, 40 - for vehicle button ability - this is aint cheap you know.
    in mid and late game there are no soviet infantry that can outshoot OKW infantry units.
    So you are going to fight with conscripts that you cant upgrade hah!?
    Also Soviets are boring faction to play - they dont have any squad upgrades, no buffs, no officers. I think relics must rebalance the whole faction.
    Jesus it took them 2 years to understand, that having T70 and T34 and SU85 and Su76 on same tiers in same buildings - is nonsense.

    Soviets were always a lackluster in lategame, especially the bigger gamemodes. And it will be worse after upcoming patch. I hate to point to coh2chart, but soviets have the lowest winrate in any 3vs3 / 4vs4 mode regardless of skill level you click (ironically they are at their worst at the 1-250 rank players, so learn to play doesn't seem to be the problem). In 2vs2 it isn't that much better. Allied players should accustom to play USF/UKF in the bigger game modes, soviet is a win in 20 minutes or loose faction, so they don't scale into bigger game modes.

  • #1109
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    @Make_love_not_war thats quite interesting, i would have thought soviet late game would have been its best ever given the marvelous buffs to t4 that have received. Im very curious to what leads to that statistic, overly agressive players? Bleed from the penal meta? Predictable cheese? Terribly interesting... Especially with it being up into the top tier players...
  • #1110
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,089
    Its pure predictability and thats *why* its worse in the top 250. For the most part they are one or two trick ponies - spam penals and guards or spam maxims and guards in to armor. You know exactly whats coming and furthermore for the first 5 to 10 minutes you even know exactly where its going to be with decent certainty. OKW can brute force this kind of high tier low brains strategy with their FRP and OST can deal with it by protecting 81mms with a single MG42. Its also why it is more pronounced in team games. In 1 v 1s and a lesser extent 2 v 2s OKW just trying to force their way forward will get pinned at their truck and OST wont have the field presence with no infantry.
  • #1111
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited March 2017

    Resource inflation is probably the main reason why SOV lose in larger games, it isn't so much their end line-up being to weak, its more to do with the fact that the insane fuel income in team-games basically removes the premium cost both Axis factions pay for their vehicles.

    I mean think how quick you see the first KT hit the field, its not right, especially when there is more than one.

    And as allies, apart from really brits, you float fuel hard as you just don't have the manpower to match the fuel income, whereas Axis tanks are similar mp cost, but only really a higher fuel cost to pay for the generally better performance.

    Then a big minus for SOV that so many people underestimate is their lack of smoke sources, its basically your mortar, the 120mm and shocks. That's it. Against the super-heavy tds, masses of support weapons and OKW sim cities, its so much harder than say brits with all their vehicle smoke shells or USF with their rifle, mortar, sherman and even offmap smoke to assualt and overrun positions by blocking their vision.

    Of course that's also without comets, the more mobile 200 damage tds and mass weapon upgraded infantry.

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