[OST][ALL] Grenadiers and You: a Forum Balance Think-Tank/Poll

124

Comments

  • #92
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    The whole problem boils down to this what is easier for Relic to implement. Basically everyone agrees that grens need a buff and the ones who disagree are saying that cons will be left in the dust, which I'd agree to an extent. The question to ask is what is easier to implement: a nerf to WFA infantry or a buff to EFA inf?

  • #93
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    If i lose in the first 10 min ive only lost 10 min and can get into another one, if i lose after30 min of kicking ass im done for the day.

    Yeah that's a fair point.

  • #94
    2 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,058
    Grenadiers requires an additional 5th man

    There is no problem with damage of Grenadires. They just die too fast from explosions.

  • #95
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,722

    @1ncendiary_Rounds said:
    The whole problem boils down to this what is easier for Relic to implement. Basically everyone agrees that grens need a buff and the ones who disagree are saying that cons will be left in the dust, which I'd agree to an extent. The question to ask is what is easier to implement: a nerf to WFA infantry or a buff to EFA inf?

    That is actually incorrect. High lethality makes fight last less time which makes fight more RNG and less tactical. So bringing the WFA to lower we make the game more tactical and less RNG.

  • #96
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model
    I agree with vipper. Theres no point in reducing the rapid killing lights if we just replace them with power creeped infantry. EFA is a good baseline to bring others to
  • #97
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    edited February 2017
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    Yeah I voted for dps on their rifles, but really I just want better veterancy bonuses. I don't think there's a massive problem if they get slightly better dps with Vet, along with some survivability as we've all said, but if we start buffing the baseline DPS significantly I think infantry combat just becomes way less interesting.

  • #98
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    Grenadiers need reduced price/reinforcement cost

    5th man is clearly a bad idea idea, as it would make USSR infantry unusuable, and clash horribly with the design of the unit. So that's out. More health per unit I could see, though I think that's a bit boring, could work, ditto DPS, not too bad an idea. Though considering grens seem like they're pretty utility heavy (bunkers, snares, grenade launchers) I think lowering cost works a bit better. But if we're determined to make all infantry like riflemen, expensive and high-end, then I'd say more DPS.

  • #99
    2 years ago
    MeowMeow Posts: 165
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model

    If we want grens to do better vs WFA armies buff MG42 , make it 70 and increase dps a bit to 10 for mg42 only
    from 15 dps from far to 18 not much , could help vs rifleman , closerange dps is almost unchanged due to LMG profile working on long range and close. By this way we preserve durability , playstyle and improve unit's intended role ---> long range combat.
    Only downside would be that cons die even faster :( , but they were never designed to fight over long ranges vs grens. so some tweaking would be required if buff to mg42 is made.

  • #100
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 689
    edited March 2017
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine
    I think the wfa inf will get toned down.

    So we dont need to buff grens and later nerf them again. And people seem to forget grens are meant to be supported or babysitted even by design. And that p grens do exits.

    Grens work fine vs soviets. penals and guards are getting nerfs and soviets get nothing extra for inf this path.
  • #101
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    If I'm honest, knocking 2mp of their cost and just a tad more mid-close range dps for their rifles would be my ideal change, grens bleed a little hard for what is supposed to be your mainline, and their dps for detering troops like rifles or penals early on from just breaking cover and closing with them for an easy kill is too poor.

  • #102
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    edited March 2017
    Grenadiers need reduced price/reinforcement cost

    I've always thought their biggest issue was that their MP reinforce cost was just too high, knock it down a bit and they're ok with the spacing change stopping wipes. I would personally also give them the ability to put up sandbags and/or wire.

  • #103
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 689
    edited March 2017
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine
    No their reinforce costs follow the right formula. P grens already have a discount.

    Why do vanilla cons while being infirior cost the same and even more with side tech? And still be infirior in the late game. Same goes for soviet weapon teams.

    Ost does more and reliable damage and are more fragile in the inf deparment in return. wile soviet have better staying power more utility and paper tanks mostly, but do less damage overall.

    Dont campare grens to just wfa and leave soviet inf out. those wfa main lines will get nerfed.
  • #104
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    Grenadiers need reduced price/reinforcement cost

    Cons are even more UP Leveler, that's the problem, they're the most UP infanry in the game, even more than grens.

  • #105
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine
    I know. Its just a matter of time imo for units such as volks rm inf sction get scaled down to efa levels.
    So we should not bring grens up there and then have to take m down again.
  • #106
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    @TheLeveler83 That completely depends on what they intend to do with cons, Penals have taken the place of mainline infantry anyway and are now considered to be in the correct place in terms of balance, so its their combat performance when compared to grens that should dictate any other changes needed.

    Volks, rifles and IS will all be nerfed, that is a given. But both grens will likely need some small changes to meet them part way and finally be matched on an even level. As we have no real idea apart from Mrsmith commenting on cons role being defensive utility infantry, its hard to really discuss how cons will work until we understand how they will perform after the rework.

    I think that rather than 30mp for a reinforce, they should be given an exception and made 28mp instead, just to reduce some of the horrific bleed. The original price was left over from vanilla coh2, back when grens had 1.5 armour base, they were much tougher and didn't drop models nearly as quick (it was also one of the reasons penals had flamers, as both grens and p-grens had armour, meaning SOV needed an effective upgrade that ignored armour for their own infantry.)

    The only other change is a small dps increase to their rifles, as we can't nerf the base target size of IS, rifles or Penals, as that would affect their balance against other things like mgs and vehicles, the latter two especially can easily bound from cover and rush grens without taking much damage, proceeding to slaughter them at close range where they are rather useless. This makes holding flanks impossible in the early game where rifles and penals are already dominant unless one spams mgs, just a small increase in close-to mid damage, mainly enough to discourage rushing them outright would not be overkill, but would give OST players a little more breathing room.

  • #107
    2 years ago
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine
    @Farra13

    Both okw and ost have better infantree higher in their tech tree. Penals rifles and sections are the non doc top and penals have no ai upgrade left. So imo those squads should have a slight edge over volks and grens from start to finish of the game.

    That is why i agree we need to take baby steps with grens. Grens should not trade even with more expensive squads in most cases.
  • #108
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    Grenadiers need reduced price/reinforcement cost

    Since when are people insisting it's a given that volks, rifles, and IS's will be nerfed?

  • #109
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,802
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model
    @MCMartel since its generally agreed that they are too forgiving, being able to largly fight well regardless of positioning. These are the units that are generally attack moved in large numbers and rely on incredible stats over commander ability to brute force through the enemy. While it would be alright for some, specialist units costing a premium to preform as so, but not infantry that is expected to be plentiful and flexible as any of those mentioned units.
  • #110
    2 years ago
    MCMartelMCMartel Posts: 1,855
    Grenadiers need reduced price/reinforcement cost

    While volks are just very powerful and cheap, IS are expensive and require 3 sidegrades plus a sidegrade on the unit+weapon upgrade, so they require pretty massive investment, they basically cost premium level cost, and even then are only mostly useful on defense. I don't play the US so I can't speak as much for riflemen, but IS effectively are premium costed units nor are they very flexible.

  • #111
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,802
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model
    @MCMartel they are almost as flexible as rifles with weapon racks (albeit slightly less so due to no fotm on brens and shorter ranged piats) but still more flexible than any efa unit and okw unit as well. Imo they could have one of their launch buffs reverted (the reinforcment cosf change or the punishment for being out of cover) but thats not a matter for this thread, we can discuss it elsewhere but lets knuckle down here
  • #112
    2 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 1,984
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    @MCMartel said:
    IS are expensive

    No, they are not. They cost a measily 16% more than Grenadiers. Obers are expensive. Fallschirmjäger are expensive, Commando Gliders are expensive. IS? No, they arent. They are just not the cheapest line infantry...

  • #113
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,017
    Grenadiers requires additional HP per model

    They also don't require anything. They just become infinitely better if you do give them those upgrades - though why you'd unlock grenades and Brens at the same time makes no sense to me.

  • #114
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,268
    Grenadiers need more DPS on their rifles

    @Lazarus said:
    They also don't require anything. They just become infinitely better if you do give them those upgrades - though why you'd unlock grenades and Brens at the same time makes no sense to me.

    They're superior versions of grens without upgrades. You can just grab weapon upgrades and the 5th man and they become amazing, and you can afford to ignore grenades entirely. Brit side-teching is the truest form of side-tech. It's all a series of great benefits that are unarguably worth their cost.

  • #115
    2 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,058
    Grenadiers requires an additional 5th man

    "5 men squads -OP!!"
    At same time Pfus exists... And spammed.

  • #116
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,595
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine

    @Pastulio said:
    "5 men squads -OP!!"
    At same time Pfus exists... And spammed.

    Are pfuss stock?
    Are pfuss 0cp?
    Are pfuss even ost?

    You're comparing apples to oranges here.

  • #117
    2 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,058
    Grenadiers requires an additional 5th man

    @Katitof said:

    @Pastulio said:
    "5 men squads -OP!!"
    At same time Pfus exists... And spammed.

    Are pfuss stock?
    Are pfuss 0cp?
    Are pfuss even ost?

    You're comparing apples to oranges here.

    And what's difference? Pfus become stronger if they gonna be for Ost?
    I compare fruts to fruts.

  • #118
    2 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,595
    edited March 2017
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine

    @Pastulio said:

    @Katitof said:

    @Pastulio said:
    "5 men squads -OP!!"
    At same time Pfus exists... And spammed.

    Are pfuss stock?
    Are pfuss 0cp?
    Are pfuss even ost?

    You're comparing apples to oranges here.

    And what's difference? Pfus become stronger if they gonna be for Ost?
    I compare fruts to fruts.

    I'm going to pretend you didn't asked that question.
    Pretend that you actually know that ost is designed around 4 man squads and support weapons working in tandem with each other, not spam of basic infantry.
    Pretend that you realize there is this unit called 251 in existence and nothing would be able push off ost off the field.

    Lets give conscripts LMG42 equivalent while we're at it, it works for literally all other factions, so why wouldn't it work for cons?

    There is a reason why ost got osttruppen at 6 man squad and OKW got pfussies you know.

    Core army as well as support options were made for that.
    You want strong, 6 man combat squads, play sov or OKW.

  • #119
    2 years ago
    PastulioPastulio Posts: 2,058
    Grenadiers requires an additional 5th man

    @Katitof said:

    @Pastulio said:

    @Katitof said:

    @Pastulio said:
    "5 men squads -OP!!"
    At same time Pfus exists... And spammed.

    Are pfuss stock?
    Are pfuss 0cp?
    Are pfuss even ost?

    You're comparing apples to oranges here.

    And what's difference? Pfus become stronger if they gonna be for Ost?
    I compare fruts to fruts.

    I'm going to pretend you didn't asked that question.
    Pretend that you actually know that ost is designed around 4 man squads and support weapons working in tandem with each other, not spam of basic infantry.
    Pretend that you realize there is this unit called 251 in existence and nothing would be able push off ost off the field.

    Lets give conscripts LMG42 equivalent while we're at it, it works for literally all other factions, so why wouldn't it work for cons?

    There is a reason why ost got osttruppen at 6 man squad and OKW got pfussies you know.

    Core army as well as support options were made for that.
    You want strong, 6 man combat squads, play sov or OKW.

    So better way just to nerf 3 fation's AI?
    Does not matter at this point.

  • #120
    2 years ago
    GenObiGenObi Posts: 1,368
    edited April 2017
    Grenadiers are perfectly fine
    I would like to update my vote, lot if the issues i had with Grendiers have been fix with this past patch. They are exaclty what they need to be.
  • #121
    2 years ago

    why is gren in cover not beat american out of cover walking? germany so bad is not beat amerca? america need no work or complain? american too strong for gren because all need is attack move and win, too strong with levels, not need cover, gren not have chance for no good reason.

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