[USF][ALL] M20 Utility Car

#1
3 years ago
SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
edited April 2017 in Balance Feedback

Now I know Relic did have some m20 changes in earlier WBP versions, but along with many other changes they were scrapped (at least for that patch). I liked the changes they had hinted at, which was a reduction in manpower cost from 340 to 240. Then they gave a big nerf to baseline near and mid range accuracy, and a slight buff to long range. They added accuracy bonuses to each of the 3 levels so you can earn the accuracy back if you play it well. The vet requirements were reduced also because getting that thing up is currently very difficult, and then a +20 health was added to vet 3 like the 222.

Those changes are solid, cause as of right now, this unit can drop models insanely fast at close range even if they are retreating, which is undesirable for fair play. That said, it's far accuracy drops off heavily and it gets no accuracy bonuses with vet so its very difficult to use in most regular combat scenarios at all. The mines are phenomenal, but right now I only get the unit if I plan on placing a lot of those mines or there's an early double sniper situation. If they go with all of the above performance/vet changes, I think the cost reduction could be lessened. Maybe make it like 280-300mp and 20 fuel?

Comments

  • #2
    3 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951
    edited April 2017

    http://i.imgur.com/cGntf3O.jpg

    Bring back the WBP changes that were reverted due to scope. Bren/M20/Kubel/M3 changes were really damn good.

  • #3
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824

    bump

  • #4
    3 years ago

    The 222 had its price increased, so the price of the m-20 does not seem to bad anymore. In the old balance preview, the m-20's gun was performing at kubel lvls from close range. If you built one in wpb, you were doing so for the mines. An adjustment to manpower is all that is needed. 340 manpower is to much.

  • #5
    3 years ago
    GrittleGrittle Posts: 993

    @company14u2 said:
    The 222 had its price increased, so the price of the m-20 does not seem to bad anymore. In the old balance preview, the m-20's gun was performing at kubel lvls from close range. If you built one in wpb, you were doing so for the mines. An adjustment to manpower is all that is needed. 340 manpower is to much.

    I agree, lowering the manpoer cost a tad bit would go a long way.

    Maybe making Armor a skirts a universal tech upgrade that increase durability for all non-tank light vehicles (WC-51, Greyhound, M20, The Halftracks) instead of a individual weapons package could also work.

  • #6
    3 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271

    Bringing this thread back since the m20 was left out of the balance preview. Why is this unit going untouched? The changes they brought into the winter preview last year were really good, and it sounded like they were just going to delay them a little.

    A nerf to its close range dps and slight buff to long would make it more viable in combat while making it less cheesy against retreating squads. The vet bonuses to accuracy and the 20HP at vet 3 were also a good idea. There needs to be just a little more incentive to use this thing. Heavy mines and an emergency counter to sniper problems are the only real reasons atm.

  • #7
    3 years ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    > @SkysTheLimit ha detto:Heavy mines and an emergency counter to sniper problems are the only real reasons atm.

    Because that is the role of the unit.
    It only cost 20 fuel, no reason to make it dirty cheap in mp, especially since early game usf is far from having mp issues with well used rifles, especially if we look at OST and UKF.

    I like the m20 because 20 fuel hardly slow down my teching, the unit still has got the 100% immobilize troll mine.

    The only reason the unit is hardly used is because the m36/call in spam and all muni to rifles bar of death is just as effective as a proper m20 strategy and ten times easier to execute.
  • #8
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    I also actually quite like the m20, i dont play usf often so im probably pretty low in the matchmaking but not using it as a shock unit and instead as a rapid response/fire support unit works well

    Would it be an option to buff the multiplier vs cover? Its supposed to be a .50 cal eh? A slightly better modifier vs cover would be a lore friendly way to increase its value as a quicker counter to cover heavy opponents
  • #9
    3 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited July 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo I like the unit a lot too, I'm just wondering why the changes they proposed earlier dropped off the map. They would make it better at what its supposed to do which is provide light AI support and scouting. Right now the AI support it provides is wiping squads insanely quick at close range, and contributing minor dps at far.

    Look no further than a comparison to the kubel (dps against size 1 targets):
    Far DPS
    Kubel: 7.05
    M20: 3.17

    Near DPS
    Kubel: 11.86
    M20: 22.73

    That is just silly, and it shows how difficult it is to use the m20 to really contribute against most good players. Yes the m20 can fire 360 degrees, but its far dps shouldn't be THAT much less than the Kubel, nor should its close dps be THAT much more than it. It also gets no accuracy with vet atm, so not much dps gets added.

  • #10
    3 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited July 2017

    If one want to compare the DPS of theKubel and M20 one has to do so in the same range.

    Kubel has a range of 35, while M20 of 40.

    At range 35 M20 has 4.2 DPS.

    By range 21 M20 start having better DPS.

    In addition one has to keep in mind that M20 has more HP and armor.

  • #11
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    @SkysTheLimit i didnt realise the spread was so large, definatly reducing the close in favor of long, or at least reduce the long amd give the skirts for free?
  • #12
    3 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited July 2017

    @Vipper said:
    If one want to compare the DPS of theKubel and M20 one has to do so in the same range.

    Kubel has a range of 35, while M20 of 40.

    At range 35 M20 has 4.2 DPS.

    By range 21 M20 start having better DPS.

    I'm not trying to compare their dps at equivalent ranges; the issue is the drop off between the far and near dps for the Kubel is a lot less. I'm well aware of when the M20 gets better dps, that's not the point. The point is to show how much the m20s drops off from far to near. The original WBP changes were addressing exactly this, and were only dropped due to being "out of scope". The veterancy accuracy bonuses they added + the nerf to near acc. and buff to far put it in a great spot.

    @Vipper said:
    In addition one has to keep in mind that M20 has more HP and armor.

    Well aware of this.... Let's also keep in mind the m20 is locked behind a 50 fuel tier, and costs 20 fuel itself. So by the time it arrives, snares are almost always on the field, and AT guns are coming soon if not there already. This is why having better far dps with a chance to improve it in veterancy matters more to the m20.

    @thedarkarmadillo If they gave free skirts I would be okay with no cost change at all. The drop off just needs to be fixed regardless of economy, since makes it a little too good at retreat chasing, and not as good as it really should be at soft support.

  • #13
    3 years ago
    38Lightning38Lightni… Posts: 512
    edited August 2017
    Indeed you don't want to be rushing close range with a m20 when squads have AT weapons in play and snares galore.
  • #14
    3 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271

    And we're not talking about some massive uptick in Far dps here. The .50 cal changes for the m20 in WBP were:

    50cal accuracy reduced from 0.75/0.475/0.2 to 0.45/0.33/0.25
    50cal accuracy increases with veterancy: +10%/+15%/+15%

    That's only a buff of .05 far while nerfing the other 2 and it's not ideal to engage at those ranges anyway with how likely it is to be snared. Then you have those vet bonuses which are much needed since for some odd reason the m20 gets no dps buffs against infantry. It gets a 50% penetration increase and +5 range at vet 3 but everything else is scouting and movement buffs.

  • #15
    3 years ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,681

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    And we're not talking about some massive uptick in Far dps here. The .50 cal changes for the m20 in WBP were:

    50cal accuracy reduced from 0.75/0.475/0.2 to 0.45/0.33/0.25
    50cal accuracy increases with veterancy: +10%/+15%/+15%

    That's only a buff of .05 far while nerfing the other 2 and it's not ideal to engage at those ranges anyway with how likely it is to be snared. Then you have those vet bonuses which are much needed since for some odd reason the m20 gets no dps buffs against infantry. It gets a 50% penetration increase and +5 range at vet 3 but everything else is scouting and movement buffs.

    I remember playing with these values on previous balance patch before they were scrapped, M20 was most definitely weakest of all armored cars, with these values, even vetted, it was nothing more then field decoration, compared to 222, which ripped everything apart, hell even M3 packed more punch then that M20 with "adjustments" aka "I'm mine layer and most expensive spotter only unit in game incapable of self defense".

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