Give medium tanks same range (Comet change unfair)

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Comments

  • #62
    3 years ago
    GracchusGracchus Posts: 38

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    By that logic (high pem so why range) why does the unit with the highest pen in the game ALSO have the highest pen in the game?
    Or why does the su76 have higher range than the stug despite also having higher pen?
    Or why does the su85 VASTLY out pen the more expensive JP4 despite them both having the same range?
    Hell why doesnt the sherman get a range reduction with AP shells since it then gets more pen than the more expensive p4?
    Why does the rakk have lower pen than other AT guns AND lower range?

    Either that logic is flawed or relic has just failed to apply it on.....anything.

    I didn't state anywhere that there should be some rule that vehicles with higher penetration must always have shorter range. what's with all these straw man's can't you make proper case for your opinion without them, or mischaracterising what I posted.

  • #63
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Gracchus said:
    Soon as you point me to where I actually made a claim that the Panther isn't good against all vehicles I'll consider it, but since I didn't make such a claim I guess that's not gonna happen. What you did is called a straw man argument.

    You opened a thread because Panthers could kill Comets. If you're okay with that ask someone to close the thread because you've got nothing to talk about.

  • #64
    3 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited April 2017

    My god, its like the second coming of McMartel. OP have you ever heard of the saying "banging your head against a brick wall"?

    Now either your a little slow on the uptake (Comet change fair, Panther range balanced. Different roles= different strengths) or your a troll.

  • #65
    3 years ago
    GracchusGracchus Posts: 38

    You opened a thread because Panthers could kill Comets. If you're okay with that ask someone to close the thread because you've got nothing to talk about.>

    I didn't open this thread because Panthers can kill Comets and never stated as such, Panthers could kill Comets before the Patch and after, the difference is the circumstances and the gameplay involved, a range difference gives the Panther a chance to kite, equal ranges means the Comet will still go down, but its not a free kill some damage will be done to the Panther. Other units added in combined arms will also have chance to effect the outcome.

  • #66
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    edited April 2017

    @Gracchus said:

    You opened a thread because Panthers could kill Comets. If you're okay with that ask someone to close the thread because you've got nothing to talk about.>

    I didn't open this thread because Panthers can kill Comets and never stated as such, Panthers could kill Comets before the Patch and after, the difference is the circumstances and the gameplay involved, a range difference gives the Panther a chance to kite, equal ranges means the Comet will still go down, but its not a free kill some damage will be done to the Panther. Other units added in combined arms will also have chance to effect the outcome.

    No. Equal range will mean the Comet will win with a 60% ratio like it did before the nerf, despite being better at killing infantry. The Comet has smaller target size, higher speed, vet 0 free blitz, faster weapon reload, higher sight range, higher base accuracy.

    This is what's called asymmetric balance. The Comet is good at lots of things, dueling a Panther isn't one of them. Buy a firefly.

    There. Thread can be closed.

  • #67
    3 years ago
    GracchusGracchus Posts: 38

    @Farra13 said:
    My god, its like the second coming of McMartel. OP have you ever heard of the saying "banging your head against a brick wall"?

    Now either your a little slow on the uptake (Comet change fair, Panther range balanced. Different roles= different strengths) or your a troll.

    If this thread annoys you so much, then ignore it, nothing for you to see here move along, see problem solved for you.

  • #68
    3 years ago
    GracchusGracchus Posts: 38

    No. Equal range will mean the Comet will win with a 60% ratio like it did before the nerf, despite being better at killing infantry. The Comet has smaller target size, higher speed, vet 0 free blitz, faster weapon reload, higher sight range, higher base accuracy.

    This is what's called asymmetric balance. The Comet is good at lots of things, dueling a Panther isn't one of them. Buy a firefly.

    There. Thread can be closed.

    Did you know 60 percent of all statistics are made up. The patch notes clearly state the Comet base accuracy is 0.5 just the same as the Panther.

  • #69
    3 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,824
    Its annoying because you are refusing proper reasoning with "nuh uh" but if you wish to actually discuss it outside of "but the comet" or "its not a TD" im willing to give it another go, if not ill refrain from keeping the thread alive with my posts

    Now then:
    Roles are very important in this game, thats why as an infantry example guards are expensive and strong but not as good at AI as say penals. Generalist < specialist at their given role.
    The comet is an over grown cromwell in every way, you use them the same to accomplish the same things, a panther however =\= an over grown P4.

    The panther fills the role of high end AT in a way that is asymmetric to allied counterparts.
    In exchange for range the panther boasts high armour, truthful its pen is only average for its role but its accuracy and actual dps are awful (there has been much discussion about buffing it for its current role or changing its role)

    What it waters down to is the panther is supposed to be the top tank at killing tanks, whereas the comet is the top tank for being adaptive. You get a comet if you can because its going to do extremely well no matter what the enemy does, you get a panther because the enemy has tanks. The comet is only second to the panther in a straight up slug out in any other job the comet is better. Some, myself included still would argue that for that panther isnt even good enough at that one job for it being its only job but alas
  • #70
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Gracchus said:

    No. Equal range will mean the Comet will win with a 60% ratio like it did before the nerf, despite being better at killing infantry. The Comet has smaller target size, higher speed, vet 0 free blitz, faster weapon reload, higher sight range, higher base accuracy.

    This is what's called asymmetric balance. The Comet is good at lots of things, dueling a Panther isn't one of them. Buy a firefly.

    There. Thread can be closed.

    Did you know 60 percent of all statistics are made up. The patch notes clearly state the Comet base accuracy is 0.5 just the same as the Panther.

    Try again champ - that 0.5 is its moving accuracy NOT its base accuracy. The 60% figure comes from extensive testing that happened before the Comet change. Your thread is bad, it is baseless. Buy a firefly.

  • #71
    3 years ago
    GracchusGracchus Posts: 38

    @Lazarus said:

    @Gracchus said:

    No. Equal range will mean the Comet will win with a 60% ratio like it did before the nerf, despite being better at killing infantry. The Comet has smaller target size, higher speed, vet 0 free blitz, faster weapon reload, higher sight range, higher base accuracy.

    This is what's called asymmetric balance. The Comet is good at lots of things, dueling a Panther isn't one of them. Buy a firefly.

    There. Thread can be closed.

    Did you know 60 percent of all statistics are made up. The patch notes clearly state the Comet base accuracy is 0.5 just the same as the Panther.

    Try again champ - that 0.5 is its moving accuracy NOT its base accuracy. The 60% figure comes from extensive testing that happened before the Comet change. Your thread is bad, it is baseless. Buy a firefly.

    correct it was moving accuracy that was changed I made an error in quoting the patch, however when I checked the base accuracy of the 77 mm and 75 mm kwk 42, both have Accuracy (F/N ) as 0.03/0.06 so that's also the same for each tank.

  • #72
    3 years ago
    MeowMeow Posts: 165

    @Gracchus said:
    It's a 5 percent difference in speed and the panther has slighty better acceleration, its a difference so small it's effectively meaningless in game terms, especially given the blitz ability.

    Panther has LOW DPS like comet vs tanks>

    Ok explain this, this are you seriously saying the panther is weak against tanks, it seams to be, but I don't want to misunderstand you.

    Both tanks fire slow
    Panther 7.4 seconds reload
    comet 6.3 actually im suprised comet kills tanks faster which it pens. Comet is more dangerous than panther when it comes to chasing pz4s or killing any other targets with low armor , it fires faster.

    Panther overall is little better when it comes to AT capabilities but not nearly as effective as dedicated TD.

    Stug3 has same range as panther and fires at 180% of panthers speed. Almost double dps. You can utilize that DPS only vs not heavly armored tanks. Panther is only worth money at killing heavy armored tanks. IS-2 , pershings , kv-2s , comets bla bla.

    Firefly has 8 seconds reload but deals 20% more dmg and costs less and has more range. Firefly has everything better than panther when it comes to killing tanks. Panther is not ideal vs tanks but sure can put up a fist fight cause it has good armor and hitpoints and really high pen gun but it fires too slow for it being good AT tank. It's only purpose is penetrating heavys atm. I don't play OST but if i would choose i would get pz4 and stug all day instead of teching t4 and getting single panther.

    Panther is really versatile can lead the charge , can circle heavies , can snipe somewhat 50 range ain't that bad , really mobile and can kill some infantry. But comet could do all same but as exception had VERY strong AI and little worse AT but also could fire on the move so much better.

  • #73
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096
    edited April 2017

    @Gracchus said:

    @Lazarus said:

    @Gracchus said:

    No. Equal range will mean the Comet will win with a 60% ratio like it did before the nerf, despite being better at killing infantry. The Comet has smaller target size, higher speed, vet 0 free blitz, faster weapon reload, higher sight range, higher base accuracy.

    This is what's called asymmetric balance. The Comet is good at lots of things, dueling a Panther isn't one of them. Buy a firefly.

    There. Thread can be closed.

    Did you know 60 percent of all statistics are made up. The patch notes clearly state the Comet base accuracy is 0.5 just the same as the Panther.

    Try again champ - that 0.5 is its moving accuracy NOT its base accuracy. The 60% figure comes from extensive testing that happened before the Comet change. Your thread is bad, it is baseless. Buy a firefly.

    correct it was moving accuracy that was changed I made an error in quoting the patch, however when I checked the base accuracy of the 77 mm and 75 mm kwk 42, both have Accuracy (F/N ) as 0.03/0.06 so that's also the same for each tank.

    Well done. Now tell the class what stats the tank commander buffs? (I'll give you a hint, it's base accuracy)

    And that still leaves higher rate of fire, faster, free blitz at vet 0, better sight range. Buy a firefly, this is a learn the game issue.

  • #74
    3 years ago
    GracchusGracchus Posts: 38

    Well done. Now tell the class what stats the tank commander buffs>

    If you can't make your points without getting sarcastic, you need to move on, it obviously annoys you to be disagreed with. If you want to discuss the game stick to that stop padding your posts with something not related to that.

    The commander gives a 10 percent bonus, the Panther however gets 25 percent lead in penetration and a 10 percent lead in front armor, the Comet is much less likely to get a penetrating shot. The only unbalanced aspect was the moving accuracy which was 50 percent more and the patch fixed that. The panther doesn't need a range advantage.

  • #75
    3 years ago
    GracchusGracchus Posts: 38

    The 60% figure comes from extensive testing that happened before the Comet change.

    Who did the test, how big was the sample and where can I find information on this, I check Google before I asked before suggest, so you'll have to point me in the right direction.

  • #76
    3 years ago
    comrade_daelincomrade_d… Posts: 2,948
    edited April 2017

    @Gracchus said:

    Do you think its justified that the Panther has such a large range advantage against all allied mediums, not just the Comet, but Sherman, Cromwell and T34 when its not a dedicated tank destroyer, you don't remotely find that unbalanced.

    I do not think the Panther has "such a large range advantage" against "all" allied mediums. Your use of superlatives don't help you, so stick to the simple words.

    As for being a response to what I said, I'll take it as "I consider Panther and Comet to be equals despite everything indicating the contrary". To which I can understand why you have a misguided view on the subject.

    Your logic is that Comet and Panther are supposed to be equals. I'll keep it simple: that's fail logic and you should stop. Comet counters pretty much everything but Panther, and that's only because the latter has a range advantage. Don't like it? Get firefly and kite that Panther. Comet I can try to chase away from attacking my infantry, but Firefly kites them in turn.

    As stated before, Firefly has a greater range advantage to Panther than Panther has to Comet. So no, it's not a large range advantage, and having that advantage against "all allied mediums" makes sense, because the Panther itself is outranged by allied TDs. You fail by limiting the comparison with just medium tanks, but conveniently add things like Ostheer AT Gun in the mix. So that adds moving goalposts on top.

    Her's a question: what do you think will happen if Panther has same range as other allied mediums?

  • #77
    3 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @Gracchus You need to stop comparing the panther to the comet....the idiom of apples to oranges applies here.

    Comet>Everything not a Panther
    Panther>Comet
    Firefly>Panther

    OKW aside, OST do not get a dedicated td like the other 4 factions, the Panther fills this role. Yet you want a generalist medium to be able to fight an at specialist unit on even terms? And still be allowed to engage infantry and support weapons with the same lethality? For a cheaper overall price?

    Either your IQ is in the single digits, or your faction bias is overwhelming your senses.

    If you want a game where you can spam a single unit to win, I hear starcraft is popular these days, thanfully the comet has lost that particular trait, and no-one wants to see its return.

  • #78
    3 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,096

    @Gracchus said:
    The commander gives a 10 percent bonus, the Panther however gets 25 percent lead in penetration and a 10 percent lead in front armor, the Comet is much less likely to get a penetrating shot. The only unbalanced aspect was the moving accuracy which was 50 percent more and the patch fixed that. The panther doesn't need a range advantage.

    "And that still leaves higher rate of fire, faster, free blitz at vet 0, better sight range. Buy a firefly, this is a learn the game issue."

    addendum: forgot the obvious larger AoE.

  • #79
    3 years ago
    GracchusGracchus Posts: 38

    Either your IQ is in the single digits, or your faction bias is overwhelming your senses.

    I will no longer reply to any post which has off topic comments. If you want a reply then stick game balance not personal comments.

  • #80
    3 years ago
    GracchusGracchus Posts: 38

    @comrade_daelin said:

    @Gracchus said:

    Do you think its justified that the Panther has such a large range advantage against all allied mediums, not just the Comet, but Sherman, Cromwell and T34 when its not a dedicated tank destroyer, you don't remotely find that unbalanced.

    I do not think the Panther has "such a large range advantage" against "all" allied mediums. Your use of superlatives don't help you, so stick to the simple words.

    As for being a response to what I said, I'll take it as "I consider Panther and Comet to be equals despite everything indicating the contrary". To which I can understand why you have a misguided view on the subject.

    Your logic is that Comet and Panther are supposed to be equals. I'll keep it simple: that's fail logic and you should stop. Comet counters pretty much everything but Panther, and that's only because the latter has a range advantage. Don't like it? Get firefly and kite that Panther. Comet I can try to chase away from attacking my infantry, but Firefly kites them in turn.

    As stated before, Firefly has a greater range advantage to Panther than Panther has to Comet. So no, it's not a large range advantage, and having that advantage against "all allied mediums" makes sense, because the Panther itself is outranged by allied TDs. You fail by limiting the comparison with just medium tanks, but conveniently add things like Ostheer AT Gun in the mix. So that adds moving goalposts on top.

    Her's a question: what do you think will happen if Panther has same range as other allied mediums?

    You haven't convinced me and I'm not convincing you, this is one of those matters of opinion things, I'm not going restate my arguments to you again, you understood them, you just don't agree with them any more than I agree with yours.

  • #81
    3 years ago
    HingieHingie Posts: 2,006

    Wow, 3 pages of people running up against a person who is basically a wall made of Osmium. The density is amazing. Dont think theres much to be salvaged or gained here, folks.

  • #82
    3 years ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,332 mod

    Moderator Input I'm closing down this thread as it derailed into a sum of people insulting each other. I'll have a closer look at whoever gets a warning later today.

This discussion has been closed.

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