[SOV] Is the DShK balanced?

2

Comments

  • #32
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited May 2017

    Near range for Dshk is 10 and the high value affects up to mid range which 27.5.

    The close DPS is simply too high, the weapon has more DPS at range 20 than other HMGs have at range 0.

  • #33
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271

    @Vipper said:
    Fact remains Dhsk is too cheap to reinforce and has too much DPS close.

    I agree with Dark here, you have to be doing something very wrong to be taking a lot of close-range fire from a Dshk. Yes it has a fast set-up time, but you do not need to walk very far to get out of arc at close range.

    Maybe the Dshk has too low a reinforcement cost, but I don't really see that as being a huge balance threat. MGs tend to reinforce less than other infantry anyway, like most support weapons.

  • #34
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited May 2017

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    I agree with Dark here, you have to be doing something very wrong to be taking a lot of close-range fire from a Dshk. Yes it has a fast set-up time, but you do not need to walk very far to get out of arc at close range.

    Maybe the Dshk has too low a reinforcement cost, but I don't really see that as being a huge balance threat. MGs tend to reinforce less than other infantry anyway, like most support weapons.

    No matter if I do or do not do something wrong Dhsk has too much DPS close. DO you have any idea how high it is up to range 10? do you know how it compare to other HMGs?

  • #35
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Can we compare the costs of other mgs too? And maybe arcs? Timing? Once again we run into the bitter debate of "why do they waste their time adding all these stats when DPS is the sole attribute that matter when comparing any unit"
    I ran into a dshk last night, i outsmarted its collosal dps by not getting shot at by it. Using a volks as bait then (wait for it) walking around to the no shooty with my sturms. Dshk has the smallest arc of any mg in the game, OBVIOUSLY it shouldnt have any benifits over the other mgs... That would be nuts.

    And again, i would like to see its reinforcement increased, but its dps isnt a problem when the area that it delivers that is so small, assuming it will bleed appropriately.
  • #36
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited May 2017

    1) arc does not matter that much when in garrison since all mg get the same arc in garrison
    2) Near DPS value is far to high (affecting DPs up to ranges 25) no matter how you look at it. If lowering close dps mean it should also have a price decease I have no problem with it.
    3) Never claimed that DPS is all that matters but the difference in this case is simply way too much. (especially combined with the fact that is more durably and cheaper to reinforce than most hmgs)

  • #37
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    Ok so were talking about GARRISONED DSHK not just a simple DSHK. Completely different.
    Give okw some form of smoke aaaaaand now were done.
    Or get a pair of volks, walk one around the building and throw one of those molitovs without the drawbacks of molitovs and watch that garrison clear.

    The point of the DSHK is to hurt what its pointing at, thats why it doesnt point very far. Change its set up to that of the maxim and bada boom.

    As for DPS not being everything, but it seem you generally fall back on "but dps..." Or "the ttk..." And ignore any of the other drawbacks, focusing ONLY on the strong point.
    The biggest issue withthe dshk is that it doesnt bleed like it should, any offensive problems stem from not being able to counter garrisons or being used to being able to walk volks head on to any threat and coming out on top (these are typical problems for the okw)
  • #38
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723

    The DPS of Dhsk is irrelevant from if it garrisoned or not.

    I did not fall back on anything I simply pointed out the 2 issues that make Dhsk has a very big advantage over other hmgs, low reinforcement cost and high near DPS.

    The DPS is of Dshk is simply to high regardless of anything else. Its about X 2,3 fores higher than other hmgs.

  • #39
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    And its arc is x2,3 the size of other mgs and its cost is far greater than any of them to boot. Just like a shotgun, the more restricted the area irs going to hit the more ouchy in there.

    So if we are going to nerf its damage and cost we need to also increase its arc so it can actually do something. Of course what you seem to want already exists, its called the maxim and you dont need to pick one of two commanders to get access to it, but for some odd odd reason players are doing what they can to NOT use it. I guess its just so great they dont want to be unfair to the enemy?

    For real, bump its reinforcment costs i would even try as high as like 30mp per as a base point. Bleed would keep over use from occurring by making it unsustainable, merge could slow the bleed but would require another unit to do so (one that cant do anything else atm) The gun remains unique and powerful unlike its smaller brother the maxim (some people will still whine of course that they cant walk up to it and hit it with a flame nade, or walk up to it and flame it frontally like the maxim but given that there are people that on one topic will complain that the AT satchel makes AT nades redundant then complain they have drawbacks that other snares dont in another so there will always be something)
  • #40
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited May 2017

    @thedarkarmadillo said:
    And its arc is x2,3 the size of other mgs and its cost is far greater than any of them to boot. Just like a shotgun, the more restricted the area irs going to hit the more ouchy in there.

    So if we are going to nerf its damage and cost we need to also increase its arc so it can actually do something. Of course what you seem to want already exists, its called the maxim and you dont need to pick one of two commanders to get access to it, but for some odd odd reason players are doing what they can to NOT use it. I guess its just so great they dont want to be unfair to the enemy?

    For real, bump its reinforcment costs i would even try as high as like 30mp per as a base point. Bleed would keep over use from occurring by making it unsustainable, merge could slow the bleed but would require another unit to do so (one that cant do anything else atm) The gun remains unique and powerful unlike its smaller brother the maxim (some people will still whine of course that they cant walk up to it and hit it with a flame nade, or walk up to it and flame it frontally like the maxim but given that there are people that on one topic will complain that the AT satchel makes AT nades redundant then complain they have drawbacks that other snares dont in another so there will always be something)

    The arc is not X2,3 smaller than other HMG and there is no correlation between arc and price.

    Vickers, mg34, Mg42 have the same arc which bigger than 0.50 and maxim, which is bigger than Dhsk but none have so high close DPS and allot of them have different prices.

    No matter how you want to twist it Dhsk near DPS is simply way to high, as I have point out to you the gun has more DPS at range 20 then second HMG has in range 5.

    It is the highest DPS small arm weapon (at range 0-10) in the game by far (more than 2 Ober ST44) and will drop model in a little over second.

  • #41
    2 years ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647
    edited May 2017

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    People still sticking to this story then? With the dominant meta that top tier players cannot do anything against? It comes out too early. If they want an MG - get a Maxim.

    It's a little more complex than the DShk's performance that's caused the GCS players (top tier) to form a new meta around lend lease. Though its performance is excellent; (it is the KT of mg's), Its not solely winning games, and from what I've seen is far from an uncounterable mess like maxim spam.

    Thing is for SOV, is that the new maxim is very much a support weapon; in the sense of being what is basically a sub-par mg-42. It can no longer work as a standalone anymore, it requires units to spot and screen it now, which leads to the whole triple/quad CE build as an opening.

    Because cons are next to useless in comparison to volks who will dominate them, if up against OKW, a triple penal with scout car is essential. That means you lack any supression platform unless you grab a quad and deny yourself a t70, supression being essential during the mid-game as volks begin to scale and will outnumber the penals anyway.

    So that's why both commanders with DShk come in; primarily lend lease as its stronger at nearly all stages of the game, the unit exploits a big weakness of OKW's currently (weakness to support weapons due to their lack of smoke) whilst allowing the SOV player to avoid backteching to grab mg's and not hamper the speed he hits t3. Unlike OST who will have at least one mortar pumping out rounds to screen assualts and flanks, OKW can do little more than skirt the edges of the DShk's arc, and when their is more than one, well... Basically making it the ultimate counter agaisnt the volks horde. This forces OKW players to tie up their limited tanks to clear the DShk's, finally allowing their infantry to maneuver again, in turn this basically gives the SOV player the ability to dictate all the engagements.

    Finally the ability to use resource manipulation to pump out a combination of lend-lease shermans and hit t4 for the occasional su-85 tops of the potential in the commander and giving them a fantastic late game strategy, making it the go-to choice for the pro players who are willing to use any means to grab that top place and prize.

    So overall i'd say its more problems with OKW's lack of smoke, and the limited options SOV have currently in terms of tactics and builds that puts so much emphasis on the DShk and lend lease.

  • #42
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588

    The DSHK is clearly broken. Almost instapin everything and too durable. Regardless the rest of the faction and other factions this MUST be fixed.

    However im a bit tired of the lack of proper soviet meta. The faction rely on broken stuff since what? a year now?

  • #43
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 694
    Soviets almost always needed to reley on a set of specific (viable) commanders and the unit that they provide just to be able to compete in most cases.

    Only penals are good atm. The rest of the early game inf and weapon teams including call ins are lacking except the dushka wich imo is really good but not op.

    First make the stock units such as cons and the new maxims and even guards vaible choices. The dska will fall out of favor and the soviets will have better options beside penals and dskas every game.

    And people please stop calling any soviet unit that can threaten axis op or broken just because off that fact.
  • #44
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,071

    They're not calling it OP or broken because it "threatens" Axis, they're calling it OP and broken because it's OP and broken, which is exactly why it's getting a role change in Mirageflas unofficial no-scope EFA test patch seen here https://www.coh2.org/topic/61465/eastern-front-armies-revamp-by-the-unofficial-balance-team/page/1#post_id612112

    Just because it's Soviet and deserves a nerf doesn't mean people are trying to persecute the Soviets, and just because the Soviets overall don't work as a faction doesn't mean they can't have OP things.

  • #45
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 694
    That patch/mod seems to try to adress a lot i mentioned and more in order to justify some deserved buffs and nerfs. Cons guards and maxims made viable. And changes to the dushka as well. Of the above prove effective i agree that the dushka gets some attention to.

    Still current duska can be countered by indirects easy, has a small arc thus can be flanked a bit easier, comes late and cost a lot. It better be good.
  • #46
    2 years ago
    _Aqua__Aqua_ Posts: 1,951

    @RiCE said:

    However im a bit tired of the lack of proper soviet meta. The faction rely on broken stuff since what? a year now?

    They've always relied on broken shit to survive. Sniper in an M3, Sniper sprint w/ guards, Maxim spam, ISU instant wipes, etc. etc. I agree with your sentiment, power for any faction/tier/commander etc. should be spread evenly, not focused into one unit while the rest are left to rot.

  • #47
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434

    @RiCE said:

    However im a bit tired of the lack of proper soviet meta. The faction rely on broken stuff since what? a year now?

    This. Playing against Soviets has been really not fun for a very long time. Always relying on uber cheese/broken OP strats. Feelsbadman.

    Land Lease on a whole is broken. I don't want to sound like whatever is popular is OP. M4C Sherman is too potent.

  • #48
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 694
    The m4c itself is good. But i dont find it on it self too potent. Its the spam factor wich is the issue. If its tied to tech or a lot more expensie without t4 build that issue imo will be resolved.
  • #49
    2 years ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,271
    edited May 2017

    @RiCE said:
    However im a bit tired of the lack of proper soviet meta. The faction rely on broken stuff since what? a year now?

    That's what happens when conscripts are your mainline infantry in the post-WFA era of this game.

    They were perfectly balanced within the wher-soviet matchup, but given how absurd OKWs mainline infantry are (vs soviets specifically), it should come as no surprise they need to rely on cheesy blob control. Half of the commanders for both EFA factions are near unviable in all but the best of best players.

  • #50
    2 years ago
    thedarkarmadillothedarkar… Posts: 5,822
    I agree with @SkysTheLimit volks have been shitting on cons since the start, superiour in every way AND having fantastic options non doc amd doctrinally really pushed tge soviet to rely on cheese (yes there was stinky soviet cheese in the wehr/sov days too but there were other options, cheese was just easy)
  • #51
    2 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950

    So, hard-nerf Volks on Osttruppen-level with better Vet and upgrade. I would be for that.

  • #52
    2 years ago
    LazarusLazarus Posts: 4,071

    Cons are also addressed in the no-scope patch I linked earlier. It's a total EFA overhaul and it gives me a bit of hope that if it's received well they'll be able to do what we did in the first place. Slide it under Relics nose and say look at how good this is and they'll adopt it whole hog.

    And then give Soviets a better version of cons that's completely different to what was tested making the game nigh unplayable for 6 months.

  • #53
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 694

    i have pulled some stats from stats.coh. al vet 0. And i hope the site is not out of date ;)

    volks do 120% more dps at long range and almost 40% more at close range then cons do. this for only 10 mp more and 80 hp less.
    now volks have 1.5% more dps then penals do at long range and do 14% less then penals at close range. to me this suggests that volks operate at/near penal level for 50mp and 80 hp less. with stgs and vet even penals will mostly bite the dust against volks in the end. You just cannot go other then t1 penals vs okw. Before maxims were an/the option but not anymore. and cons will only bleed you dry vs okw.

    that leaves a soviet player vs okw with very little options but go for a viable unit/doctrine wich atm are few imo to compliment your penals. so you will see the same doctrine/callin units or cheese such as the dska/m4c sherman nearly every game esp vs okw. I am not surprised in the slightest that soviet players stick to cheese tactics when the normal tactics will almost always put you on the back foot.

    We cant just keep nerfing doctrinal units for soviets without looking at the whole faction. we should be asking why is this unit/doctrine always picked and go from there. not just call it OP and nerf the **** out of it and be done with it.

  • #54
    2 years ago
    KurfürstKurfürst Posts: 289

    Volks are fine IMO. They can hold their own and they need to vs dual wielding WFA infantry and doctrinal SOV troops. Shocks walk over them like there is no tomorrow. Their earlier incarnation as pretty useless Shreck meatbags was horrible and boring, lets not go back there.

    Cons are fine durability wise, they get insane RA veterancy bonuses making them the cheapest unit for holding ground and maintaing field presence. Coupled with this they are potent with PPshs, their downfall that their late game is so poor that they can do very little other than dying. IMO what they need is a bit of DPS ugrade unlocked at the higher tiers, like with SOV T4. Giving them a single cc. Guard level DP 28 (exclusive with PPsh) would make them trade happily with Grens and Volks at range, certainly becoming good enough to be a viable alternative. They would not be great as a unit but their cost effectiveness would make them something hard to ignore.

    Frankly, at the same time I think Penals would need some adjustment, they are just too good, simply an option for a better infantry that wins all the early engagements without much of a drawback. I would increase their RA to 1,1, that would make Penals high DPS glass cannons with too high of a bleed to be viable as a sole mainline, so you would need to mix them with Cons as a meatshield and the latter would be still viable later game with upgrades.

  • #55
    2 years ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,723
    edited May 2017

    that is not up to date...
    DPS ranges 0//10//20//40

    mosin_nagant_rifle_conscript_mp X6 //3.44//2.52//1.96//1.22
    grenadier_kar_98k_rifle_mp X4 //5.76//4.37//3.37//2.60
    volksgrenadier_kar_98k_rifle_mp X5 //4.55//3.46//2.70//2.08

  • #56
    2 years ago
    SquishyMuffinSquishyMu… Posts: 434
    That preview wants to buff cons without touching grens? While leaving Penals as they are; dominating all crucial early engagements already. That'll end well.

    In regards to Volks, some people confuse these units with the Volkstrrum used to defend Berlin. Aka ostruppen. Volks grenadiers should be performing on as good a level as 'normal grens'. I'll repeat this for the third time on this forum - I don't want conscripts beating out Volks.

    Some people argue current conscripts are fine when known how to use them. I'd rather they'd get cheaper and have easier access to faster throwing molotovs etc.
  • #57
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 694
    edited May 2017
    Penals are just fine, they dont dominate every engagement but yes they are quite good. Mgs esp with support will stop them. volks can be spammed far more easely and they already trade quite wel with penals while being a lot cheaper. penals take a lot more time to get massed.

    Cons should have a decent chance to beat volks in early game they are both t0 and the cost difference is only 10 mp. cons also need extra investments or doctrines to get any real use out of them. wich is not a problem imo if only volks would perform on their price level (at least at the start of the game)

    If people want to get rid of call in strats or cheese from soviets stuff like this needs to be adressed.

    the design of soviets is to be the most dependend on doctrines and the units they provide. either we accept it and stop complaining everytime one of them becomes the metta. or we need to change soviets so they can compete in early and late game without needing a specific doctrine/unit.
  • #58
    2 years ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 694
    edited May 2017

    Sorry this message was lost before and somehow got back on. Plz delete

  • #59
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588

    @SkysTheLimit said:

    That's what happens when conscripts are your mainline infantry in the post-WFA era of this game.

    They were perfectly balanced within the wher-soviet matchup, but given how absurd OKWs mainline infantry are (vs soviets specifically), it should come as no surprise they need to rely on cheesy blob control. Half of the commanders for both EFA factions are near unviable in all but the best of best players.

    Yes. Conscripts must be a viable mainline infantry for soviets. Just as Volks are for OKW.
    I would slightly increase their close range DPS, and give them non-doctrinal PPSH upgrade. (just an idea for start)

    Regardless of these, cheesy stuff needs to be addressed as well.

  • #60
    2 years ago
    WiderstreitWiderstre… Posts: 950

    For me the Dshk is the only tool left which is working as PnzGren- and Obersoldaten-counter to hold them on distance. Soviets are dead in my eyes, weak Cons and OP Volks are the reason. To fix them you don't need to move rocks, only some decent changes like:

    Make Molotov non-tech. Reduce Cons MP-cost at T3 from 240 to 220. Maybe give them PPsh non-doc in T3 too.

    One big change I would prefer too is to give Volks same accuracy-profile as Osttruppen with 12 damage AND make Panzerfüsilier more expensive.

    I have too look more on their stats to make more concrete suggestions, because I only know my mod's stats anymore.

  • #61
    2 years ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588

    @Widerstreit said:
    For me the Dshk is the only tool left which is working as PnzGren- and Obersoldaten-counter to hold them on distance. Soviets are dead in my eyes, weak Cons and OP Volks are the reason. To fix them you don't need to move rocks, only some decent changes like:

    Thats right, but an underpowered unit doesnt legalize an overpowered unit. Both need to be fixed.

    One big change I would prefer too is to give Volks same accuracy-profile as Osttruppen with 12 damage AND make Panzerfüsilier more expensive.

    Nope. Conscripts need buff... not the rest of the game need to be nerfed.
    Panzerfüsiliers are 290MP and their weapon upgrade is 90MU. They are pretty expensive already.

Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

  • © SEGA. SEGA, the SEGA logo, Relic Entertainment, the Relic Entertainment logo, Company of Heroes and the Company of Heroes logo are either trademarks or registered trademarks of SEGA Holdings Co., Ltd. or its affiliates. All rights reserved. SEGA is registered in the US Patent and Trademark Office. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.