[OST][2v2] Is the Tiger Ace overpenalized?

24

Comments

  • #32
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited June 2017
    > @TheLeveler83 ha detto:
    > @SAY_MY_NAME
    >
    > There is no getting through to you. You dont seem to get that the panther is in a weird spot. And what you suggest will make a over the top unit.
    >
    > If you buff its moving acc/acc and range something needs to give. The concept of balance in a unit is not so hard to get.
    >
    > The pros say all it needs is acc. (removed)

    So panther (200 fuel) should be balanced in performances to jackson (125 fuel), in a way that jackson is better at everything but taking hits ?

    For 200 fuel i got a (removed) rof and accuracy tank with three useless
    Mg that does nothing but takes hits...seems balanced.

    When panther will cost 125 fuel your arguments (maybe) will start to make sense.

    I'm not gonna explain that asymmetrical balance is given not by units comparisons between factions roster units but between their prices compared to performances.

    Did you completely forget that panther is the most expensive single purpose (td) vehicles (that suck at tank countering) ?

    Over the top is so much stupid to say, it will still lack the pinpoint accuracy of firefly, the jackson mobility, the su ability to provode range, but gain a decent rof (jackson like), a better accuracy stationary and on the move, and normal tank destroyer range.
    (removed)
  • #33
    1 year ago
    RiCERiCE Posts: 1,588
    edited June 2017

    @Katitof said:

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    Thing is a single IS2 can easily bounce shots from it. It's nothing special. While it isn't UP it's a gimmick that makes the commander 'meh'.

    Using most durable allied tank out of 3 allied factions, which can be only one at a time as argument why a unit that sniffs out of existence literally every other allied unit in game in range is rather poor choice of argument.

    It is not about the performance, but the penalties. You pay for the TA with manpower, and pay the fuel cost over time with the restriction. However the OP is right. The penalty on this unit is too much. Basically with an average fuel income you could pay the full fuel price in 10 minute.

    Also the Tiger itself is not as good (not even with veterancy) to have only a single unit in the whole match. If something should be limited to a single piece in the whole match, its the KT. You can build IS2, Pershing, ISU152, even KTs more than one in a game. Being able to call in only a single Tiger in a game where there are cheap TDs, and 150FU tanks fire rockets at you... its a huge-huge handicap. To be fair, i would say, once a Tiger Ace is destroyed, the ability should call in a vanilla Tiger.

  • #34
    1 year ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 683
    @SAY_MY_NAME

    You just cant see the problems you will create with your intended buffs. What counters your panther? td and tanks? At guns bouncing off? Infantry at? A lucky placed mine?

    Enjoy fantasy land where your panther is the end all be all anti tank and anti td and wont be op as shit for 175 fuel.

    I am done.
  • #35
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    The panther is better for heavies, you have jagdp and stug for meds.

    Basically this, problem is the Panther needs its accuracy fixed, as currently its dps is low to compensate for its durablity/mobility. That low dps, coupled with its abysmal ability to hit the target, can reduce is killing power to nil, as it will miss repeatedly in engagements when trying to reposition/chase. Making it little more than a fast block of steel.

    If you fix that, and then consider the 200 damage version in the Eastern Front revamp that Mr_smith and Miragefla are showcasing as an example of possible balance changes, it becomes a unit specialising in fighting heavies and premium mediums. Giving it a dedicated role, that sets it apart from stugs or the JP4.

    @SAY_MY_NAME The panther is the top tier at specialist, but that doesn't mean it should handle anything and everything on tracks with ease. Otherwise you end up with the whole, spam panthers and obers to counter all tactic.

  • #36
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,575

    @RiCE said:

    @Katitof said:

    @SquishyMuffin said:
    Thing is a single IS2 can easily bounce shots from it. It's nothing special. While it isn't UP it's a gimmick that makes the commander 'meh'.

    Using most durable allied tank out of 3 allied factions, which can be only one at a time as argument why a unit that sniffs out of existence literally every other allied unit in game in range is rather poor choice of argument.

    It is not about the performance, but the penalties. You pay for the TA with manpower, and pay the fuel cost over time with the restriction. However the OP is right. The penalty on this unit is too much. Basically with an average fuel income you could pay the full fuel price in 10 minute.

    Also the Tiger itself is not as good (not even with veterancy) to have only a single unit in the whole match. If something should be limited to a single piece in the whole match, its the KT. You can build IS2, Pershing, ISU152, even KTs more than one in a game. Being able to call in only a single Tiger in a game where there are cheap TDs, and 150FU tanks fire rockets at you... its a huge-huge handicap. To be fair, i would say, once a Tiger Ace is destroyed, the ability should call in a vanilla Tiger.

    So lets check the penalties then.
    Your fuel gets reduced by 90% for 10 minutes or until death.
    You pay no initial price what so ever.
    Usually you get fuel income between 15-28 depending on map control, lets make it 20 on average. I'm not taking into account 3v3 or 4v4 inflation.
    10 minutes of penalty can be rounded up to around ~200 fuel.
    Now, MP penalty is 25%.
    You'll have around 60-80 pop army at that point.
    1 pop is 1,5 upkeep.
    Depending on your total pop, you'll have 210-180 mp income. Cutting that by 25% will net 158-135mp or ~50mp less on average.
    That'll add up over 10 mins to additional ~500mp.
    So in total, you're going to pay 800mp and 200 fuel for the tank with frontloaded mp and taxed fuel and additional 500mp for vet3 of it(which is well worth it given what it gives and how long it normally takes).
    Comparing the costs to regular tiger, you're paying LESS fuel for the TA(can be more, but you'd have to spam caches or control more then half of the map for good amount of time in late game), but you pay more mp for the vet on it.

    Basically, instead of regular tiger and 2 grens you're getting 1 vet3 tiger at similar price.
    What you call it against, how well you use it or if you let it die early or not is completely irrelevant.
    The unit is last resort card, you use it to either seal the game or as a last ditch defense attempt.

    Looks legit to me.

  • #37
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721
    edited June 2017

    @Katitof said:

    So lets check the penalties then.
    Your fuel gets reduced by 90% for 10 minutes or until death.
    You pay no initial price what so ever.

    It seem you have lost some Patch notes:

    Updates for February 18th, 2014

    Elite Troops

    Tiger Ace cost from 0 MP to 800 MP

  • #38
    1 year ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 683
    edited June 2017
    @Farra13

    I feel exactly the same way about the panther as a td for heavier tanks. Every unit should have a role for their timing. It should not become the bane of all vehicles.

    I know its rof and acc are not the best. All i think it needs is better base acc. Nothing more with that armour hp and speed.
  • #39
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257

    @TheLeveler83 ha detto:
    @SAY_MY_NAME

    You just cant see the problems you will create with your intended buffs. What counters your panther? td and tanks? At guns bouncing off? Infantry at? A lucky placed mine?

    Enjoy fantasy land where your panther is the end all be all anti tank and anti td and wont be op as shit for 175 fuel.

    I am done.

    Maybe combined arms, maybe your sherman + jackson well microed, maybe combined arms, maybe at guns (that still pen panther except 57 mm that has a pen ability).
    Maybe a good player.

  • #40
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257

    @Farra13 ha detto:

    The panther is better for heavies, you have jagdp and stug for meds.

    Basically this, problem is the Panther needs its accuracy fixed, as currently its dps is low to compensate for its durablity/mobility. That low dps, coupled with its abysmal ability to hit the target, can reduce is killing power to nil, as it will miss repeatedly in engagements when trying to reposition/chase. Making it little more than a fast block of steel.

    If you fix that, and then consider the 200 damage version in the Eastern Front revamp that Mr_smith and Miragefla are showcasing as an example of possible balance changes, it becomes a unit specialising in fighting heavies and premium mediums. Giving it a dedicated role, that sets it apart from stugs or the JP4.

    @SAY_MY_NAME The panther is the top tier at specialist, but that doesn't mean it should handle anything and everything on tracks with ease. Otherwise you end up with the whole, spam panthers and obers to counter all tactic.

    Fine, make it less expensive.

    Right now it is priced to be a counter against anything on tracks.

    Damage makes zero sense, the panther has problem at hitting anything at medium range and above + slowest reload ever.

  • #41
    1 year ago
    Farra13Farra13 Posts: 647

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:

    Fine, make it less expensive.

    The you would have to increase the tech costs of OKW, otherwise the Panther timing would be off, it would hit the field not long after the first sherman, cromwell etc. it can still crush a single stock medium, a pair however is another story.

    Right now it is priced to be a counter against anything on tracks.

    Its priced with the idea that OKW pay a premium for tanks, in exchange for its vet 5 feature. The cost comes up just short of a heavy tank, yet it can quite comfortably brawl with an IS-2 or Pershing. Not too mention the OKW version has superior machine guns, its actually quite capable of dealing with infantry due to the long range damage on the triple mgs, the OST panther though, that thing seems to fire foam pellets...

    Damage makes zero sense, the panther has problem at hitting anything at medium range and above + slowest reload ever.

    Accuracy is the panthers main issue, it can barely hit when stationary, and on the move..... the guy manning the turret seems to be dealing with intense migraines as he's slow as f*** to reload and an even worse shot.

    Fix the accuracy and up the damage to 200, suddenly you have a powerful counter to premium medium tanks and heavies. An ideal role for the panther alongside leading assualts with that 320 frontal armour.

  • #42
    1 year ago
    TheLeveler83TheLevele… Posts: 683
    > @SAY_MY_NAME
    >
    > Maybe combined arms, maybe your sherman + jackson well microed, maybe combined arms, maybe at guns (that still pen panther except 57 mm that has a pen ability).
    > Maybe a good player.

    Maybe get a pack 40 ninja raketten or a stug jgdpzr double shrecks teller mines instead to fight mediums and not keep whining about it.
  • #43
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721

    This thread is about Tiger ACE and it high penalties, can we try and get back on the issue?

  • #44
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,575

    @Vipper said:

    @Katitof said:

    So lets check the penalties then.
    Your fuel gets reduced by 90% for 10 minutes or until death.
    You pay no initial price what so ever.

    It seem you have lost some Patch notes:

    Updates for February 18th, 2014

    Elite Troops

    Tiger Ace cost from 0 MP to 800 MP

    If you were focusing on sentences instead of words, you'd knew I was talking in the context of fuel there.

  • #45
    1 year ago
    mrgame2mrgame2 Posts: 496
    I thought the TA income penalty is until it gets destroy? No where it said 10mins on the description
  • #46
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721
    edited June 2017

    @Katitof said:
    If you were focusing on sentences instead of words, you'd knew I was talking in the context of fuel there.

    An if you had ever tried to play the game as Ostheer and actually use the Tiger ACE you would know that:
    1) Tiger ace ACE is CP 17 compared to CP 13 of normal so it comes later.

    2) If one has army with POP 74 (since you can not call the ACE if your pop is 80) as in your example it has an MP income of 189 and it would need around 4.2 minutes to get 800 manpower and that is if does not reinforce any squad.

    3) When he actually call the ACE his pop would be 100 and his mp income down to 75 needing more than 3 minute to buy a single grenadier squad.

    4) A player average fuel income for holding on average half the map (5 sector +1 MU +1 fuel) is 26 and when Tiger ACE is called it goes down to around 3.

    5) So if one actually manages to hold a Tiger ACE for 10 minutes he would have paid 800 manpower and his income will be reduced by 1.140 manpower and 230 Fuel.

    6) As I said you must have missed some patch notes since:

    Updates for February 18th, 2014
    Tiger Ace no longer reduces all resources to 0. It now reduces MP by 25% and fuel by 90% until the Tiger Ace is destroyed

  • #47
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,263
    edited June 2017
    The TA should not be touched. Its penalties are perfectly acceptable for what it's supposed to be.

    The fact that there's even vet-skipping still in the game is dumb IMO, but if it's gonna be there it damn well better hurt to get it. Unless you wanna pay a ton of fuel up front, you better get used to the penalty. I highly doubt Relic is going give attention to what was once one of the cheesiest commanders in the game. Especially when the EFAs have so many other commanders that have been dead for a while
  • #48
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited June 2017
    > @SkysTheLimit ha detto:
    > The TA should not be touched. Its penalties are perfectly acceptable for what it's supposed to be.
    >
    > The fact that there's even vet-skipping still in the game is dumb IMO, but if it's gonna be there it damn well better hurt to get it. Unless you wanna pay a ton of fuel up front, you better get used to the penalty. I highly doubt Relic is going give attention to what was once one of the cheesiest commanders in the game. Especially when the EFAs have so many other commanders that have been dead for a while

    "TA should be untouched" -----> admit that is wrong (removed) but think relic would never give attention to fix it........
  • #49
    1 year ago
    le12role12ro Posts: 2,282 mod

    I also believe that this doctorine is good as it is now.

  • #50
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,263
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > "TA should be untouched" -----> admit that is wrong (removed) but think relic would never give attention to fix it........

    No, I said IF it were touched they would have to add a massive fuel cost. I believe the doctrine is just fine, but unlike you I'm willing to entertain the opinions of others.

    Keep up the attacks dude, it's really contributing to the balance discussion.
  • #51
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,575

    I stand corrected on the penalty duration.

    However, the point about the unit being called to save a defeat or seal the victory stands.
    If you plan long games, don't go for the doctrine with last resort card in it.

  • #52
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    > @SkysTheLimit ha detto:
    > > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > > "TA should be untouched" -----> admit that is wrong (removed) but think relic would never give attention to fix it........
    >
    > No, I said IF it were touched they would have to add a massive fuel cost. I believe the doctrine is just fine, but unlike you I'm willing to entertain the opinions of others.
    >
    > Keep up the attacks dude, it's really contributing to the balance discussion.

    Attacks ?

    And if you ever used it you would know that it requires 17 CP to be called in.
    It can be anything but easy to call in.

    Hopefully modders will remove useless penalties and give it a normal price tag (because ironically the 10 min fuel penalty cost more than KT).
  • #53
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,263
    edited June 2017
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > Hopefully modders will remove useless penalties and give it a normal price tag (because ironically the 10 min fuel penalty cost more than KT).

    Only thing mods are removing is the language in your posts since you can't seem to talk civilly to anyone you disagree with.
  • #54
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721
    edited June 2017

    @Katitof said:
    I stand corrected on the penalty duration.

    However, the point about the unit being called to save a defeat or seal the victory stands.
    If you plan long games, don't go for the doctrine with last resort card in it.

    Only it can no longer help you save a defeat.

    There was a time when it could but since then it has received a number of nerfs in different patches, while its counters have received a number of buffs.

    The simple fact that it reduces one's manpower income by 114 a minute make it nearly impossible to overturn a losing game.

    As for sealing a victory its more like troll unit than anything else.

  • #55
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    > @Katitof ha detto:
    > I stand corrected on the penalty duration.
    >
    > However, the point about the unit being called to save a defeat or seal the victory stands.
    > If you plan long games, don't go for the doctrine with last resort card in it.

    Say it to jove, who has lost a tiger ace and a panzer 4 to an is2.
  • #56
    1 year ago
    SkysTheLimitSkysTheLi… Posts: 2,263
    edited June 2017

    @Vipper said:
    Only it can no longer help you save a defeat.

    That's on your micro with the TA, and nothing else. It's a vet 3 tiger with no up front fuel cost. If you pick the commander, you know exactly what you're getting yourself into.

    @SAY_MY_NAME Your sarcasm and dismissal of other people's points is plenty insulting to people actually trying to talk about the game. You're only goal here is to prove yourself correct, and everyone else wrong. Done talking to you. Wasted enough of my time doing it already.

  • #57
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    > @SAY_MY_NAME ha detto:
    > > @Katitof ha detto:
    > > I stand corrected on the penalty duration.
    > >
    > > However, the point about the unit being called to save a defeat or seal the victory stands.
    > > If you plan long games, don't go for the doctrine with last resort card in it.
    >
    > Say it to jove, who has lost a tiger ace and a panzer 4 to an is2.

    And we are talking about the arguably world best coh player.
  • #58
    1 year ago
    KatitofKatitof Posts: 6,575

    @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    And we are talking about the arguably world best coh player.

    TA isn't immortal, nor should be.
    It should also be still counterable, it'll have edge over vet1 IS-2, but it'll be equal to vet3 one.

    I don't know what game you talk about, so can't tell what happened.

    Losing tanks in coh2 isn't something rare you know, regardless which tank it is.

  • #59
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited June 2017
    (removed)
  • #60
    1 year ago
    SAY_MY_NAMESAY_MY_NA… Posts: 257
    edited June 2017
    > @Katitof ha detto:
    > @SAY_MY_NAME said:
    > And we are talking about the arguably world best coh player.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > TA isn't immortal, nor should be.
    > It should also be still counterable, it'll have edge over vet1 IS-2, but it'll be equal to vet3 one.
    >
    > I don't know what game you talk about, so can't tell what happened.
    >
    > Losing tanks in coh2 isn't something rare you know, regardless which tank it is.

    Wring data.
    Vetting doesn't add any at bonus to tiger.
    So tiger ace isn't superior to is2 at any stage.
    It's at performances are stable and inferior to is2 no matter the vet levels.

    It happened just like that, is2 frontally engaged panzer 4 and tiger ace and destroyed both.
  • #61
    1 year ago
    VipperVipper Posts: 3,721
    edited June 2017

    @SkysTheLimit said:
    That's on your micro with the TA, and nothing else. It's a vet 3 tiger with no up front fuel cost. If you pick the commander, you know exactly what you're getting yourself into.

    It has nothing to with micro or my micro specifically. A player in a losing scenario has very little chances of recovering at CP 17, if he needs 800 manpower to call-in a Tiger ACE and then he bleeds 114 manpower/23 fuel per minute.

    The unit used to have high shock value when the doctrine was first released and it could actually save a losing game, patch after patch that value has been diminished.

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